Re: Disappointing guild name change

#0 - May 14, 2008, 4:43 p.m.
Blizzard Post
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6440866149&sid=1&pageNo=1

Kolenzo, thank you very much for the support you are showing to Lemming Juice. Posting here, although valiant, is essentially a dead end. The folks that run these forums and the Customer Service department, much like CS departments in just about any company you can think of, have no authority or incentive to attempt to change policy.

They police existing rule.

That one of the oldest and largest servers out there had it's largest Alliance guild who's similarities to a charitable organization (with equal dependence on it's good name) to do the wonderful things they constantly did for the Earthen Ring community have to change its name based on a vindictive report and without talking with any of the leaders of that guild or even any of the other larger guilds to find out the impact of this change over an arbitrary policy that has little to no substance, is telling.

Blizzard as a game and a company should be trying to instill the very things this guild stood for. It was the very spirit of good gamemanship and community bonding. It was based on building friendships between people... and those bonds are stronger than new content or gear or anything else that Blizzard can produce.

The reason the guild leader quit was that if he built something over three years through hard work and in having his member base be perfect models of what this game COULD be that could be torn down without due diligence, then without some policy changing event, the same could happen at any time. Basically, Blizzard knocked the wind out of the sails of one of it customers that kept everyone that knew him happily paying their membership. Which is why there is an exodus of paying customers that were not only IN the guild... but many others in the community that are realizing that Blizzard's customer service is less about servicing the customer and more about servicing it's own rules.

It is a bad business decision to not have server specific GMs that actually delve into the good, the bad and the ugly on their respective servers. And if that is too much to expect, then they should have player leaders (similar to the forum player leaders) that are trusted members of their server to feed them the information that they decided is too difficult to attain themselves. All that it would have taken to prevent this tragedy would have been a little research into the background of this guild instead of blindly following some arbitrary policy. And that is what so disheartened the guild leader.

I recognize that posting this here is spitting into the wind, and don't expect any action can or will be taken based on it. So rest assured that it will be followed by messages to Blizzard Corporate, and as many media outlets that cover the World of Warcraft game as I can possibly find.

The only reason I am REALLY posting is to thank Kolenzo. <3 & Cheers.
#2 - May 14, 2008, 4:47 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
I recognize that posting this here is spitting into the wind, and don't expect any action can or will be taken based on it. So rest assured that it will be followed by messages to Blizzard Corporate, and as many media outlets that cover the World of Warcraft game as I can possibly find.


Please realize that such a situation has not been alloted enough time to properly pass through the appropriate channels. Regardless, I wish you luck—and patience.
#3 - May 14, 2008, 8:21 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Unlocking this to pose the question: Why was the guild disbanded? :(

We wanted to overturn the name change, but now are unable to do so.
#5 - May 14, 2008, 8:30 p.m.
Blizzard Post
At least let this show that pursuing dispute via the appropriate channels—in this situation, Account Administration—will yield appropriate, often positive results. Unfortunately, such things will take time to process fully and correctly.

I'd hate to say "this is a good example," but...I suppose there is a lesson somewhere. Aye, our department may make mistakes, but we're happy to correct them if you let us.
#12 - May 14, 2008, 8:35 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Tis sad, they seem like really good folks...


Aye, no doubt. I'm hoping that those involved are willing send feedback to our address for review.
#35 - May 14, 2008, 8:52 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
There was no email notification at the correct email address long after the action had already been taken.


Aye, there is. Two actually.

Q u o t e:
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] > [email protected]
To: <removed>
Sent: 5/13/2008 7:43:35 PM
Subject: World of Warcraft - Account Action Notification


Q u o t e:
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] > [email protected]
To: <removed>
Sent: 5/14/2008 11:22:14 AM
Subject: World of Warcraft - Account Action Notification



Looks like the address may be blocking incoming mails. An unfortunate situation, yes, but not one we could have foreseen. =/
#41 - May 14, 2008, 8:58 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
The rash decision to change our name has affected so many at this point, I'm not sure if things could be mended in anyway over was has taken place.


It really was not rash. Incorrect? Yes. But not knee-jerk and certainly not rash.

This guild name has come under contention many, many times. Based on upon this mitigating factor, it appears an incorrect decision was weighed. One that we are happy to amend.

You my apologies that a borderline situation initially tilted inaccurately, of course.
#44 - May 14, 2008, 9:03 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
1) In game mail


An in-game notification was sent, too, albeit not with the same detail:

    This message is to notify that you have received an e-mail to your registered e-mail address in regards to a possible violation of our policies. Please be advised that Game Masters will be unable to provide specifics on account penalties. Please refer to the e-mail for further details. Please visit your Account Management webpage at www.worldofwarcraft.com to verify that your e-mail address is correct. Also check your e-mail filters to allow e-mails from our In-Game Support Staff.


It's still in his inbox right now. =/


Q u o t e:
2) "You have an open ticket" notification..


An open ticket? Meaning, that you've still an escalated ticket or...? Genuinely curious what you mean by this.
#55 - May 14, 2008, 9:12 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
He never received it and was denied access to the correspondence (which he requested to have resent)


Touching upon this briefly—

It was resent, actually; I noted the timestamps a bit above (you were likely constructing your post when mine was made). Given this, I would sincerely encourage Melatha to consider following the advice found here: http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20608

Maybe use a different address? Communication via email is huge within this game.
#67 - May 14, 2008, 9:21 p.m.
Blizzard Post
I realize this is a very charged, very personal issue, but I'd genuinely appreciate it if charged, personal attacks can cease for a bit.

You're welcome to direct such at me, but not at each other. I'd like to keep this thread positive and constructive.
#83 - May 14, 2008, 9:48 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Excuse me. Borderline? Tilted incorrectly?


Yes, actually. Although an incorrect perception, many may believe that lemmings do not exist within the World of Warcraft and interpret such an absence as evidence of a name being inappropriate for the RP world. This, coupled with numerous contentions by the community-at-large can easily lead the name to be listed as, aye, borderline.

I'm attempting to qualify our decision to you in hopes to give it some relevance and weight and not simply persist as a "rash," impetuous reaction to a report. We made an error; that's not in question.

Please try to be a bit less defensive. You're not being attacked. :)
#85 - May 14, 2008, 10:17 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Cases like these should be escalated so that deeper research can be made about the guild and how much involvement it has in the realm. And investigation to who created the ticket, it's obvious, with the troll that popped up laying claim to this accomplishment in our forums, that it was vindictive. They should be banned and punished, not the guild.


Involvement or "time played" shouldn't factor in when attempting to discern whether or not a name is against or in align with policy. I understand the point you're attempting to convey, though, and it's not unfounded—it's just not something that would really work well with as large an environment as this.

Appreciate the feedback, though. :)
#87 - May 14, 2008, 10:40 p.m.
Blizzard Post
~10 to ~24 hours is the normal turn-around time for AA, actually. I apologize that your specific interaction was more complicated, Goyathle, but it's not what's experienced across the board.
#127 - May 15, 2008, 3:54 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Addressing multiple points here, so please bear with—


Q u o t e:
That is unfortunately... untrue in my experience.


I value your opinions, Meirneth, and believe you an insightful individual. Regardless, our experiences differ greatly, and while such a method may work elsewhere, it will not hold sway within the World of Warcraft. I further explain this below (the next quote down).

As for your suggestions, I respect them greatly, though do believe you've inapt understanding of our role. We are not a jury or institution that provides due process; we are, more or less, a benevolent dictatorship. To state otherwise would be a horrible fallacy and I do not wish to present myself or my department otherwise.

Even so, we do create both internal and external checks and balances—ones which work. Is it a perfect system, though? Absolutely not. No system is. That this particular case has gained so much attention, however, is inaccurately skewing perceptions regarding its efficacy and value, that our procedures are ill-crafted, essentially without positive structure, and that our goals are anti-customer. While do place ourselves in a position to dictate, our goals are exceedingly positive and player-centric...though are, I admit, also aimed at managing a population in the millions.

Q u o t e:
Then maybe think of it this way. I doubt that many would feel much of a loss if the Moonwood Rangers disbanded under the same circumstances even though we as a guild are about the same age perhaps older than the Juice was. However the sheer size and presence of the Lemmmings made the circumstances of that disbandment more of a personal impact on the culture of the community itself.


One's contribution, status, and specific attitude—while remarkable aspects of in-game interaction and invaluable assets to a community—are irrelevant to the Naming process. They should not come into play when deciding whether a particular name is or is not against present policy. Such a decision will not be wholly empirical in nature (since there are elements of context which are key), of course, but it should attempt to be as unbiased and forthright as possible.

Even if a particularly well-known and civil citizen within a specific RP community claimed the name "Jesus" and managed to maintain this moniker for three years, this player should still receive equal scrutiny under the "Law" if reported. As one's community is fluid—that is, there are constantly new players coming and going—one's status will never be known universally and thus proves ultimately irrelevant on the whole.

Continuing: Sallysue, seeing the name "Jesus" and not knowing of this particular person's contributions, is dismayed, believing the appellation inappropriate for her realm. She reports the name via in-game petition and goes about her way. Had she known this player more closely, it's likely her perception of the name would change. This is all well and fine. But...our goal is to ensure an environment for all players, not just those who may have an understanding of everyone within the community.

If a name is inappropriate, then it shouldn't matter what sort of "standing" its holder may have. The same applies in reverse: <Moonwood Rangers> should receive the same review as anyone else.


Q u o t e:
Given that the Lemmings would still be around if it were not from an action that ultimately wasn't warranted by Blizzard's final ruling that the name passed, I'm not going to let them dodge the bullet of responsibility that easily.

Actions have consequences, actors have responsibilities.


Pardon me, but: This is ridiculous.

We are happy to accept responsibility for providing what proved to be an inaccurate decision. That is our burden to bear. We are not, however, the progenitors of this guild's disbandment. We contributed to the ultimate outcome, yes; we did not force anyone's hand. Please place responsibility equally.

There are many, many unfortunate circumstances herein to be accounted for. Each sparked notable human reactions on both sides. Nobody behaved perfectly. While perhaps truly tragic in the long run, this situation is an excellent educator—for both sides.

We've learned from our error. I hope the same holds sway elsewhere.

Q u o t e:
Tickets that go unanswered for protracted periods, capricious rulings later reversed after long battles and an over all attitude that the customer must be wrong.


The initial ruling was not capricious. It was not rash. It was not impetuous.

It was, however, in error. The customer was right; we were wrong.

To reiterate a previous point, the name <Lemming Juice> is definitely a borderline name. I use the phrase "borderline," as it 1) does not confirm to the more strict, clear RP naming rules; 2) is a touch silly (which is by no means negative, just a simple truth); and 3) has resulted in numerous petitions in the past. Many within the community for the last 3 years have believed this name ill-fit for Earthen Ring—likely due to the name's more fluid fit and also likely due to its jovial nature—and for the last 3 years we permitted the name to continue despite these reports, erring on the side of caution and customer.

Given the fact that this name is borderline (a name can be borderline and still appropriate) and given a rise in reports, we finally weighed a decision which—which put under a more fine lens—was discovered incorrect.

My point in this explanation is that simply because a choice ends up being inaccurate or contrary does not mean it was hastily wrought. I'm sure the same applies for the Guild Master of <Lemming Juice>.




Lastly, Melatha — I wish you all the best and apologize for my part in this confusion. That you've taken the high road is inspiring, and I only hope that you trot down occasionally to visit. :)
#129 - May 15, 2008, 4:18 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Why choose a new gulld name that's even sillier?


Are you referencing <is a Lemming>? That name is absolutely appropriate, actually. Perhaps, aye, a touch silly, but still perfectly acceptable. :)

Lemmings are present within the in-game world. Not in body (as rodents are a mite scary), but in coinage. Several quest givers even refer to we puny players as "lemmings" in distaste.


(If I misinterpreted you, Kobol, I do apologize.)
#131 - May 15, 2008, 4:21 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Okay, I may have misread then, sorry.

I looked at the ER forums, and read a thread that stated LJ was now 'Pielovers.'


There may be a bit that's going on behind the scenes that neither of us know, as well. :)
#134 - May 15, 2008, 4:23 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Nah, it's totally cool, Kobol.
#139 - May 15, 2008, 4:50 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
My single point in making this post is as follows: Within a short time of our guild name being found objectionable, a horde guild formed under the same name "Lemming Juice". If in fact that name was taken from us as being borderline and objectionable, I think it is only fair that the name be retired.


It's not objectionable; it's appropriate. And it looks as though a member once of <Lemming Juice> has taken over the appellation and retired it without our involvement.
#143 - May 15, 2008, 5:25 p.m.
Blizzard Post
My pleasure. :)
#167 - May 16, 2008, 12:43 a.m.
Blizzard Post
I'm happy to let this discussion continue, but please stop using the words "caprious," "rash," "impetuous," or "snap." They are wrong.

Again, simply because a judgment call proves invalid or incorrect, does not mean it was made hastily. I won't let this fallacy persist.
#186 - May 16, 2008, 10:40 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
If Lemming Juice was deemed borderline and had received a number of complaints, warranted or otherwise, why were we *never* advised of this?


As frank as this may sound, we're not under any obligation to do so. Whether or not a report is received remains confidential until it merits our involvement. That is, until such an action actually affects the related account, the information is considered both private and internal. My imparting of this information to you was done in attempt to assuage misconceptions, effectively "going out on a limb"; the context I've lent herein is atypical and should not be considered the right or the "norm" of Support interaction.

Again, it's best to view us as a benevolent dictatorship; our actions do not need to be explained (though, contrary to this idea, we do like to qualify our responses in part). More pointedly, we do not require the imput of our player base when reviewing a matter of policy. As nice as it would be to be included in the decision making process, it is simply not a role or a privilege of the account holder.

That said, we do realize that we are human and thus must compensate for error. Hence the "appeal" process. Had Fortune truly smiled down upon everyone, <Lemming Juice> would still be part and parcel of Earthen Ring, as, yes, the final decision would have ruled in favor of the name.



This thread is getting a bit high-spirited, so I'm considering bringing it to a close. I want matters, as unfortunate as they may be, to end on a positive note. If you can end on good terms, it usually means that you can start anew on such, as well.
#194 - May 21, 2008, 10:52 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Fin.