Need official response regarding Logitech G15

#0 - May 15, 2008, 9:18 p.m.

Hi 'Blues', I am going to try to be as specific as possible on this, so sorry for the bit of length in this thread.

I just ordered a Logitech G15 keyboard. This keyboard comes with a section of keys that are macro-programmable for use with PC games. On the Logitech website, it actually lists World Of Warcraft as a game that this is good for. For reference, here is a link to the keyboard. http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/3498&cl=us,en

Now, I did a quick Google search and found several people claiming that they were banned for Third Party Software / Botting while using it.

I looked into it further, and found on Blizzplanet's website an official response from Blizzard's "Tyren", whoever he/she is. Here is a copy of what I found.

" " " " " " " " " "
Tyren: "Recently, players expressed some concern over the use of programmable gaming peripherals while playing World of Warcraft. We want to make sure it's clear that creating hotkeys for certain actions in the game is ok. However, if these peripherals are used to automate gameplay to the point where the player is able to conduct repeated actions in the game without paying attention, then that will constitute a violation of our game policies. The use of sustained automated play grants an unfair advantage over players who earn their achievements by actively playing through the game as it was designed. In the interest of maintaining an even playing field for all players, we will investigate reports of automated play and take action as needed to prevent this from occurring in the game."

BlizzPlanet: Will it come down to GM doing bot testing like in other games, sending the player a tell, if they don't respond/answer correctly they get banned? Or will it all just be tests for physical hardware/programs?

Tyren: "Very valid question. Without going into specifics, the main part involves human interaction. We can't be more specific on what that interaction is, as it may give "botters" more insight into how they can avoid detection."

" " " " " " " " " "
This 'statement' was issues sometime around 3/17/06. A link to the BlizPlanet site is here:
http://www.blizzplanet.com/?action=news&id=616

I need confirmation from a 'Blue' that using this keyboard's macro functions will not get me banned. I am not exactly sure how it works, it is in the mail right now, but I think it has something to do with a Macro Program (it comes with the software) that allows you to set up different macros for different games.

To be clear on my intentions with this, it will not be used to help me play while not paying attention or going afk. It will not be used for botting or anything that violates the ToS.

I will not be using this keyboard in the sense that I can press one key and have it do a huge sequence of things. I plan on having one g-key = one spell. Example, bind the g4 key to Ice Trap. So I can just reach over and press the g4 key to drop an ice trap. I just want to have some extra buttons to use.

Actually, it will be no different than players who use Custom UIs allowing them to hot key spells to different keys on their keyboards. That is exactly what this is, except rather than having to download/install Custom UIs, it does it all for you so you can keep the game looking original.

So yeah, I just need an official word on whether or not I will be banned for using this. Thank you.

Malkorix

#8 - May 15, 2008, 9:29 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Hi 'Blues', I am going to try to be as specific as possible on this, so sorry for the bit of length in this thread.

I just ordered a Logitech G15 keyboard. This keyboard comes with a section of keys that are macro-programmable for use with PC games. On the Logitech website, it actually lists World Of Warcraft as a game that this is good for. For reference, here is a link to the keyboard. http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/3498&cl=us,en

Now, I did a quick Google search and found several people claiming that they were banned for Third Party Software / Botting while using it.

I looked into it further, and found on Blizzplanet's website an official response from Blizzard's "Tyren", whoever he/she is. Here is a copy of what I found.

" " " " " " " " " "
Tyren: "Recently, players expressed some concern over the use of programmable gaming peripherals while playing World of Warcraft. We want to make sure it's clear that creating hotkeys for certain actions in the game is ok. However, if these peripherals are used to automate gameplay to the point where the player is able to conduct repeated actions in the game without paying attention, then that will constitute a violation of our game policies. The use of sustained automated play grants an unfair advantage over players who earn their achievements by actively playing through the game as it was designed. In the interest of maintaining an even playing field for all players, we will investigate reports of automated play and take action as needed to prevent this from occurring in the game."

BlizzPlanet: Will it come down to GM doing bot testing like in other games, sending the player a tell, if they don't respond/answer correctly they get banned? Or will it all just be tests for physical hardware/programs?

Tyren: "Very valid question. Without going into specifics, the main part involves human interaction. We can't be more specific on what that interaction is, as it may give "botters" more insight into how they can avoid detection."

" " " " " " " " " "
This 'statement' was issues sometime around 3/17/06. A link to the BlizPlanet site is here:
http://www.blizzplanet.com/?action=news&id=616

I need confirmation from a 'Blue' that using this keyboard's macro functions will not get me banned. I am not exactly sure how it works, it is in the mail right now, but I think it has something to do with a Macro Program (it comes with the software) that allows you to set up different macros for different games.

To be clear on my intentions with this, it will not be used to help me play while not paying attention or going afk. It will not be used for botting or anything that violates the ToS.

Actually, it will be no different than players who use Custom UIs allowing them to hot key spells to different keys on their keyboards. That is exactly what this is, except rather than having to download/install Custom UIs, it does it all for you so you can keep the game looking original.

So yeah, I just need an official word on whether or not I will be banned for using this. Thank you.

I think this thread from our CS Forum Information Haven! should help shed some light on the situation:

G15 Keyboard Legality
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=1371550895&pageNo=1&sid=1#4

Aside from that, as long as you use those macro keys as 'extra space', without using them to perform functions that the default macro system could not, then you *should* be okay.

Those macro keys are pretty useful (I use a G15 myself, though that's a personal statement, not a Blizzard endorsement). On the other hand, they can be dangerous too.
Do not use them to automate game play in any fashion.
Do not use them so that a single macro press results in multiple actions.
Do not use them to insert time delays between hardware functions. For example, making a macro that causes your character cast a spell, delay one second, then cast another spell would be unacceptable.

Honestly, if in doubt? Don't do it.

The UI & Macros forum is an excellent place to get input as well.

Malkorix

#11 - May 15, 2008, 9:35 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Fastest blue response ever. Thanks Malkorix and everyone else too. The main thing that concerned me was when I read that the keyboard actually had a program that it ran to do the macros, the whole "third party software" etc.

Thanks again.

Your caution is justified, and thanks for coming here to get some clarity. Good luck and enjoy your new keyboard =).

Malkorix

#16 - May 15, 2008, 9:59 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Mal saves the day!

Reward?

/paper grocery bag for the kitty

Enjoy

*wears grocery bag like a silly hat*

I think these are a lot more fun for my smaller cousins =/.

Malkorix

#54 - May 28, 2008, 12:58 a.m.

Q u o t e:
The function that is on the time delay is the release of the key, rather than the pressing of the key. It is a single use macro, ie: for every one press of the key, there is one press in game.
As far as I can tell, the keypress is "detected" in game by the release, not the actual keypress, which is why something like this makes a difference (if I use the macro I have a roughl delay of 20ms, without it is 100ms).

So while it's not reproducable by in-game macros, I don't think it does anything that in-game macros can't do either, while incidentally getting around the biggest complaint from oceanic players like me.

Unfortunately, this is a distinction that strays away from the point =/. As it incorporates a delay into a hardware function, it's not allowed.

Malkorix

#58 - May 28, 2008, 2:11 a.m.

Q u o t e:

If it were keypress/keyrelease/delay/keypress/keyrelease then yes I would agree with you completely.

However, since there is a single hardware function being generated by the macro, irrelevant of whether there is a delay between the press and release of the key, it should be acceptable.

FYI, I am not using a G15, but rather a nostromo n52, which may handle the macros differently.

As a clarification, a keypress/keyrelease is defined as one or two hardware functions?

*chuckle* I wrote that initial post, so my word here carries similar weight. That was just an example to clearly delineate how a delay may be used. Any kind of delay associated with a hardware function is unacceptable - even in the context of a 'single' key-press. (It is worth noting that press/release could very well be considered 'separate' presses for the purposes of this discussion.)

I'm sure such macros are quite useful, and I regret being the bearer of bad news. While this particular usage may seem relatively innocuous, it would remain a violation of our policies to use it.

Malkorix

#60 - May 28, 2008, 2:27 a.m.

Q u o t e:

Can you please define what a hardware function is, and whether a single keypress is defined as one or two hardware functions?

We're running afoul of dangerously defining terminology, whereas I'm merely attempting to establish boundaries which will preserve the integrity of your play. There's no winning a discussion of policy with me in this case, as I'm merely interpreting what is likely to constitute a violation to help those who still want to use a G15 or similar macro-enabled piece of hardware avoid potential pitfalls. Seeking windows of 'opportunity', or attempting to establish a fallacy/loophole in the definitions I present is a pretty fruitless endeavor.

Essentially, for the purposes of this discussion a hardware function incorporates a single keypress consisting of press/release (the functional moment of a single keypress, which is normally not distinguished in the context of World of Warcraft outside functionality like that of your n52) and associated with character movement, and/or use of an ability (which we'll call a 'function' generically). Delays between any element of keypress/release/function or between two or more uses of keypress/release/function, as well as automatic repetition would therefore be unacceptable.