The reason that raiders dislike PvPers.

I think, in general this argument is a bit overplayed and overblown. There are many people that take part in both aspects and enjoy them both to one degree or another. Rationalizations that all PvP hates PvE and vice versa only create a false sense of polarization between these aspects of the game.

What we've been working on is creating more ways for everyone to get into other aspects of the game and the additional badge rewards just give another opportunity for people to take part in both. Granted, if you take part more in the PvE end than the PvP, you're going to most likely end up with much better PvE gear than you have for PvP and vice versa. That's OK. But, for those that need a little help on the other end, we've opened up more opportunities for them.

Some won't feel this makes it better for them and others will feel this is a great opportunity for them. Either way, continuing to give us constructive feedback about your experiences and what is or isn't working for you, is always going to be welcome and helpful to us.

Q u o t e:


Yes, but Neth, can you maybe explain to me why people who PvP get rewarded for losing and people who PvE get punished for losing.

I do understand the point that you made that you are trying to open up opportunities to people, but it doesn't make sense that raiding epics should be devalued by epics that people get via failure.

Edit: Sorry, that post sounded confrontational, I did not mean it that way. I would just like to see the official explanation for this, and maybe then once hearing that explanation it will quiet the arguments of what is better.

I think what most people miss in these arguments is that there is a time factor that needs to be factored in. PvPers invest time toward gaining points and tokens to buy their gear. Raiders (inparticular high end raiders) may down the boss, but the reward is limited to just a few select people that are able to use that gear. They invest their time to do this. But along with that time, comes the skill to repeat killing that boss and getting through those instances. The payoff just comes at a later point in time while PvP rewards are more immediate as far as seeing the points you've gained up to that point.

Take for instance Karazhan. Many people now have this instance on "farm" status. They go in, earn their badges, get new gear they can use or disenchant or sell, as a matter of course. Their learning curve is over with and they can go in and repeat their success as much as they like (within the correct timeframe of course). They have invested their time enough that their reward is now virtually immediate.

It comes down to mentality. For some, knowledge, overcoming that next hurdle, that next boss defeat, is their reward. For some, stepping into that dungeon for the first time, is their reward. For others, nothing less than gaining that key item to complete their set is enough.

In PvP, there are many that feel that victory is all they need. The points are a bonus. For others, losing is A-OK as long as they are earning something as they go. Losing is a slower gain than winning though, the same as wiping in a raid, slows the gain down of getting to that boss and getting them down.

It's perspective. When it comes to PvP as well, you aren't facing a boss you have learned. You are facing an intelligent strategic enemy and that enemy can and does change. The "learning curve" isn't there the same as it is when coming across a boss. And as many bring up, gear makes a difference in accomplishing your goals for both PvP and PvE. How fast or slow that gear is attained is up to your playstyle, your time that is put into it, and sometimes a dash of luck.

We're always working to find new and interesting ways to keep people interested and engaged in all of the aspects of World of Warcraft and really do want people to get the chance to take part in these aspects.

I've seen people bring up the impact of PvP changes affecting PvE. This is understood to be of concern to players. On our end of things, we are working very hard to find ways to both balance PvP and still limit the impact this has on the PvE end of things. We're threading a very fine needle here and again, it's why we are watching the feedback and results of testing of these changes.

We do not make changes lightly, nor are we working to make things necessarily more difficult in the sense of causing frustration. We want to maintain the elements of both fun and challenging play wherever we can without crippling the experiences.

The broken record keeps playing, but it's an important message, that testing and feedback is important.

There is bound to be adjustments that will cause some changes in how players spec, gear, or play their characters and engage in some encounters. We are taking that all into account wherever we can and watching the results.

Q u o t e:


=D

So PvP balance trumps PvE, if a conflict can't be avoided. Makes sense to me.

I don't think this is exactly true. It's not a matter of one trumping the other, but finding a way to keep some equality (difficult as that may be) between the two. There needs to be an equilibrium found somewhere in the middle.

Q u o t e:
As a dedicated Raider myself, I think there are quite a few things that Blizz can do to make Raiding friendlier. Not nerfing, mind you; just friendlier.

Mostly, go easy on the trash. Trash mobs are important to the dungeons. But Blizz can pull back a bit. It should not take an hour to clear trash from one boss to another (unless it leads to multiple bosses at once). They can also reduce trash mobs HP, and ease up on the trash packs that can wreck a raid if not CC'd with a surgeon's precision (pre-Kael, pre-VR trash anyone?).

Other things they can do is: shorter corpse runs, lower dura loss on deaths, fewer boss fights that are made or broken by the presence of a particular class/spec.

Blizz has done a lot in this direction already (oh God, I remember the run to C'Thun) and is still doing stuff (more gold from raid bosses, yay). Making Raiding friendly for more players will inevitably draw more players to see the stuff I love to watch.

Trash mobs come up pretty often. They are an important part in pacing a dungeon as well as rep reward (depending) and even cash. BUT, that said, we do take notice of any outstanding concerns with Trash mobs and encourage everyone to post in the Dungeon and Raid forum if you have a particular area in mind that you feel may need some adjustments made to it. We definitely want to maintain an element of difficulty and pacing with encounters, but we don't want to make them unattainable either.

Meiaa, I'm not going into detail, but I think some of the additions in patch 2.4.0 (while not healing cancer sadly) may help defray some of those costs and give a little extra reward. Keep in mind there will be more badges to gain, which means more availability of badge loot. There are also some increases to money and loot drops depending as well. We've made some accessibility changes to some things, including a change to Kara accessibility. You will still need someone with a key to get in, but not everyone needs to have a key. It's in the latest notes located here along with the other changes- http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html

Don't forget all of the new daily quests in Sunwell Isle and the newest dungeons.

Q u o t e:


Trash has been managed really well imo in BT and even Hyjal (since the lowering of waves). Sunwell looks like it will also be just fine. I think the thing I hear complained about the most is the RNG loot system compared to the PvP loot system. The random aspect of PvE lot is not fun at all. There is no ecitement in seeing a boss drop for the 30th time and that item still not droping. Working your way to a goal is much for fullfilling and I keep hoping you guys work toward something more along the lines of the PvP loot system.

And this is along the lines of why we have the badge rewards and token turn-ins to hopefully give a bit more choice and availability of items where we can. Of course, there is also the enticement of getting the crack at that one boss again to get that one item you haven't gotten yet too. Of course, like anything else, if there is something that seems like it's just not working out well in regard to loot drops, it can either be chalked up to Murphy's Law (oh no, you're not getting it this time either haha) or there may be a legitimate drop rate issue we need to look into.