Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

So, at BlizzCon we provided a few details about a new expansion and how it's going to have an ever-growing focus on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance in the wake of dispelling many very powerful threats to all of Azeroth. Then we find out a vague detail that some sort of unrelenting attack by the Horde on Theramore is to come. The Horde, to remind you, is currently a faction with an overzealous ruler and significant turmoil among their faction leaders; while the Alliance has almost never been quite so unified and far removed from the days of imprisoning orcs.

The first pawn on the chess board of what is to be the story for Mists of Pandaria is being moved, and you're angry at whose turn is first? I only offer that maybe there's a little more to the Horde and Alliance story lines in Mists than an Alliance town being leveled... like the entire expansion story you don't know about yet. ;)

If you wanna make an omelette...

10/23/2011 11:05 PMPosted by Gobrin

If you wanna make an omelette...

YOU GOTTA SMASH SOME HEADS

http://twitter.com/#!/talkingcongas/status/128350850199457794

I really hope Jaina strikes out on the horde with full anger hatred now that Thrall is no longer a horde the aspect of earth. I would love to see her shed blood and become just as vicious as Varian himself!

GLORY TO THE ALLIANCE!

Hmm...

What's the second move? Maybe you can burn down darkshore next, that would be really epic. Perhaps we could for the second move have duskwallow get plagued by sylvanis, she hasn't done anything for a few months. Or maybe we can cut to the chase and burn down the rest of stormwind. That would be really big. Oh the possibilities!

Last time you sold the moving narative thing the only thing that happened is I helped thrall get married. You say one thing, but the only thing that happens is more alliance screwing.

Oh please, work with me here. :)

In Cataclysm, desperate times call for desperate measures. And that impact was not equal and 1:1 as far as Alliance and Horde went. The Warcraft universe, at its core, is based on the rivalry between two vastly different factions. To make sure they have shared hardships -- equal ups and downs at each interval -- is pretty boring and severely limits the character development of the leaders on both sides. And it leaves the story with a lack of momentum for building good content.

The Cataclysm only ignited a new flame between the Horde and the Alliance, as each side approached recovering from the crisis in very different ways. But they have something much more pressing to focus on in this expansion: helping Thrall and the Dragon Aspects kill Deathwing and his followers. They provide the overarching and primary conflict in Cataclysm that needs to be dealt with, not the fighting between the Horde and Alliance.

But once Deathwing goes and a new land of opportunity is discovered, who rebuilds, who explores, who defends and protects their people, and who seeks the pride of a conqueror?

But we already had an expansion of Alliance "pawns" being removed with only one Horde one going away (Tura'jo)... Why did the Alliance need any more motivation to attack the Horde outright? Or are you saying the Alliance leaders are just that temperate?

And my point is what has happened between the Horde and Alliance in Cataclysm is just the very beginning of that story.

What I'm hearing from people is, that Garrosh's Horde is attacking even more Alliance territory and it's not fair. As a player of both factions at level 85 and employee at Blizzard, I just don't fully agree with that assessment. From our perspective, one faction will assault a cherished town of the other faction -- which is also home to a very powerful and honorable figure in Jaina. There's now a conflict presented in the story there to further unfold in the next expansion.

I don't envy Zarhym's job. People aren't buying what he's selling. Possibly because that's how they sold us the last expansion and failed to deliver.

"Oh wait, but this time!"

I know I did talk about this subject when Cataclysm was the fresh, hot topic. I don't remember what my exact words were, though, and would love to read them again after seeing several people bring them up in this thread.

I'm pretty sure I never made any specific point that an equal amount of story and retribution would be dedicated to the Alliance in Cataclysm, because I was well aware of how most of the story would play out. The Horde made many more grabs for power and dominance when Thrall left. Then Thrall became the protagonist with the evolving story of each patch focusing on the efforts to defeat Deathwing.

The stories of the villains in the expansions so far have had pretty direct closure, but that's never been the case for the two player factions. And one shouldn't expect it to be with the conclusion of any expansion. Things will continue to change and there will be an ongoing tit-for-tat between the Horde and Alliance. If you start the story at Warcraft I and move forward, that's evident. Leaders have changed. Cities have been destroyed. New cities have been created. Land has been gained and lost. The races who have allied with either side have changed.

It's going to keep going and we have no ambitions to decisively make one faction less interesting or cool than the other. That's not a good design philosophy for two playable factions and it doesn't make for a flourishing story.

But you will win some and you will lose some. And the wins and losses won't be at equal intervals for both sides, aligning with the release of each patch or expansion.

10/28/2011 02:28 PMPosted by Fayiana

It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\

Yea, I'm not going to spoil where the story is going to try and make you feel better. :)

I'm not ignoring the thread either. I've had several conversations with Lead Quest Designer Dave Kosak about threads like this one, what will happen with Theramore, as well as where things will go from there. But there's very little else I can say in this thread that I haven't already to ease your mind. We have a story to tell, know how we want to tell it, and have a clear direction we're going. Many people in this thread have already accused me of making false promises in the past, or saying my words here are empty, so my feeling is you'll just have to see what happens.

I'd never monitor a thread like this and respond as much as I have here just to be deceitful or disingenuous, by the way. It's not how I roll and is why I'm fortunate to work for a pretty face-value, honest company. No puppeteer's hand is in my rear right now.

Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.

Because chronology matters? Other than stating that Mists of Pandaria will focus much more on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance, we haven't detailed any specific story elements of that fight. The attack on Theramore is an event which will take place prior to the release of the new expansion to aggressively advance the war between the factions following Deathwing's death, further highlighting what Garrosh's motivations are in contrast to Varian's.

Garrosh wants the Horde to control all of Kalimdor. His attacks thus far have been toward that end, but Theramore remains a major port town and supply line for the Alliance. It's an obvious strategic move for a power-hungry and prideful ruler such as Garrosh to seize Theramore. If you don't think there will be repercussions for that in an expansion largely based on the fight between the Horde and Alliance in post-Cataclysm Azeroth, you're probably focusing way too much on being unable to draw direct and equivalent plays for dominance and time in the limelight between the Horde and Alliance -- and calling "foul" on our part for not making sure every release under the Warcraft name has linear, equal advancement for two vastly different factions.

This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.

Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.

10/28/2011 05:27 PMPosted by Quirnheim

"HURR I AM FRUSTRATED AS YOU DON"T TRUST US"

That's a terrible summary of what I said which is, in and of itself, frustrating as hell. You're doing nothing but misrepresenting everything I've put a lot of time into carefully stating so as to avoid these lazy dismissals of my words. You're not contributing to a constructive conversation. You're not convincing me of any argument you're trying to make. You're embodying everything you don't want me to be. It's exhausting.

10/28/2011 05:27 PMPosted by Quirnheim

Also, the fact is: The vast majority of us, myself included, DO NOT CARE if we lose Theramore. All we care about is that the Alliance gets a good story, something that has been lost in Cataclysm; the Horde got all the goodies there, while we got re-hashed enemies(defias again lol) and got our asses kicked around Azeroth in every battle.

A story of loss is not always a bad story. My main is Alliance, but I also went back and played through the 1-60 content as a worgen. I loved the story, even being on the side suffering losses. The tension felt palpable and left me absorbed in the story, determined to go beat !@# with each quest I embarked on.

10/28/2011 05:27 PMPosted by Quirnheim

Not to mention the fact that it's hard to trust the words of a Developer when I heard the same things last year with Hillsbrad. "The Alliance will strike back!" followed by the Alliance DOING NOTHING and saying "oh sorry we had to cut lots of stuff cause we ran out of time workin on horde side lol".

I'm not a developer. But if you find that quote where we said we were going to make sure the Alliance immediately struck back in Hillsbrad, then came back and said, "oh sorry we had to cut lots of stuff cause we ran out of time workin on horde side lol," I'd love to read it. You did such a good job quoting me at the beginning of your post I can only assume this paraphrasing is equally as spot on.

10/28/2011 05:43 PMPosted by Quirnheim

ZARHYM YOU EVEN HAVE A BAND FOR THE HORDE HOW IS THAT NOT FAVORITISM

What does that have to do with anything? It's a joke band writing parody songs about our game universes. Sure, Samwise, the lead singer, prefers Horde on a personal level. But he's also the Art Director for StarCraft II. He's not designing this game, though he's made plenty of epic art pieces for the Alliance. Stop muddying the waters with this jargon just to make yourself sound more convincing.

I'm not a developer. But if you find that quote where we said we were going to make sure the Alliance immediately struck back in Hillsbrad, then came back and said, "oh sorry we had to cut lots of stuff cause we ran out of time workin on horde side lol," I'd love to read it. You did such a good job quoting me at the beginning of your post I can only assume this paraphrasing is equally as spot on.

Posted by you on 11-23-2010


Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".



Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".



Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

Thank you for finding the quote! It's good to be reminded I didn't directly state, or even imply, that equal retaliation from the Alliance would come by the end of Cataclysm. <3

Since the forum quoting broke down from overload, I'm referring to post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3430805957?page=140#2788

I propose Blizz not release any more info about Mists until it's in Beta.

It's pretty sad to see all this uproar over nothing.

lol. Have a good weekend everyone.

10/28/2011 06:09 PMPosted by Quirnheim

Can we still be friends? I apologized. :(

Yes. Thanks for listening. I understand there's a distinction between passion and trolling. <3