Was Cata the first "failed" expansion?

During Blizzcon I noticed a lot of:

"With cata we went to far with...."

A lot of people have been talking since the expansion hit about the way questing had turned into a dumbed-down, linear faceroll where you virtually had to TRY to get killed if you wanted to die.

A lot of people talking about how heroics weren't "hard" like conquering a difficult peak on a mountain climb but were "hard" like peeling 1000 potatoes.

I think the drop off in subcriptions is a direct reflection of these mistakes.

I'm really glad that both these areas are being addressed, particularly with regard to questing going back to a less phased, less linear, more hub-based experience. Let's hope they nail the mix right this time.

You are mistaking the developers looking at the game with a critical eye with the claim that it was a "failure". We've seen a wide spectrum of opinions over Cataclysm and we're not afraid to look at what worked and didn't work (as we do with each expansion and game as a whole) and try to find better ways of doing things. I heard differing opinions overall during BlizzCon, but not once did I get the impression that any of those opinions boiled down to "Cataclysm sucks" as a whole. They had key elements that they disliked or thought could be improved on, but throwing the whole thing out the window as a "failure" is and should be considered a bit extreme don't you think?

As always, we want to keep learning and growing from each iteration of the game and that means that we're going to do that by continuing to look for your constructive feedback as well.

10/27/2011 09:25 AMPosted by Uldrecht

I heard differing opinions overall during BlizzCon, but not once did I get the impression that any of those opinions boiled down to "Cataclysm sucks" as a whole.

To be fair, hearing such a statement in BlizzCon would be like hearing "Lucas should DIAF" at a SW convention...

Oh, we heard people who disagreed with things pretty vehemently too, but the very cool part about getting to talk face to face, is you remove the distance between your words and emotions, thus letting each other truly understand a bit better what the other is saying.

I get what you're saying and I also agree that most people who are walking through the doors at BlizzCon are usually those that are pretty darn happy with things, but that doesn't preclude those people from voicing their own viewpoints to us either. It's just done with a bit more humanity since there's no keyboard and screen between us. ;)

Pretty much this.

The Blues and Bliz can keep spinning this as much as they want

We're not spinning anything. This is one accusation, that I'm sure were you in our shoes, you'd understand is quite overused. We have no need to spin anything. We do not rest on our laurels. At no point have we ever declared the game, "done" and gone off into the sunset to celebrate its perfection. We are always looking for ways to make it better. Always. The amount of meetings, discussions, emails, instant messages and more on our end absolutely indicate that fact. Were it perfect, we would all just spend our days playing the game versus working on it. Alas though, I haven't even gotten to see Hallow's End yet this season. :(

Let's come to an agreement together, Ok? We'll keep working to make things better, you keep providing constructive feedback on what we could do to make it better. We'll then try to figure out how we can meet in the middle on some of those things as often as possible. Deal?

10/27/2011 09:44 AMPosted by Tylenlan

Let's come to an agreement together, Ok? We'll keep working to make things better, you keep providing constructive feedback on what we could do to make it better. We'll then try to figure out how we can meet in the middle on some of those things as often as possible. Deal?

Thos operates under the premis that players are capable of contructive feed back

They have and they do. Sometimes though, I think people need a little nudge now and then and some encouragement that we really are paying attention.

Keep in mind (for those who want specific answers to every point of feedback) that sometimes the answer is, "not right now" or even, "no" (though we try to avoid absolutes since we reserve the right to change our minds at any point in time.) Sometimes we can't answer at all, nor can we always give a definitive answer or reason (though we try where we can.) Also, providing feedback does not guarantee that the feedback will be acted on. It's an impossibility to do so with all the feedback we receive and it's illogical to think we could.

I think it can be said without reserve that even if we can't act on specific feedback or choose not to doesn't mean we don't care. This is a fallacy that gets perpetuated wrongfully.The most important point of insight I can give is that the development team is always looking for ways to make the game and player experience better at every opportunity for the overall health of the game. I couldn't possibly stress that point more.

You have every right to your opinions (we value them), just remember not to take it too far and infer that lack of action on our part = lack of care.

10/27/2011 11:06 AMPosted by Kaïley

Let's come to an agreement together, Ok? We'll keep working to make things better, you keep providing constructive feedback on what we could do to make it better. We'll then try to figure out how we can meet in the middle on some of those things as often as possible. Deal?

You keep talking about us like we're one unified group of players. Even to think that there are two types of WoW players is incorrect. It's not just Casual and Hardcore gamers. There are dozens of different play styles, skill levels, etc. With 11M people a certain group of players might be a small slice of the pie but will still have hundreds of thousands of people and can have a very loud voice. IMO, that fact more than anything MUST be addressed. You can't just have two difficulty levels anymore.

Never once in any of my responses did I imply that I (or anyone else) is viewing the community as anything but individuals and not simply groups. Though to be fair, individuals often can be consigned to groups depending on their interests. ;) Also, if you followed the information on the next expansion, we're aware of the concerns over the difficulty levels and adding to it so that (hopefully) we're offering a wider array of options depending on what type of challenge you're looking for.

But, indeed, a lack of answer or action is a lack of care. How can it be seen as anything else?

And, I have to say that I feel as if Blizzard doesn't listen or hear. For instance proposed changes to the Talent System from WotLK to Cata brought forth a lot of well-founded criticsm and asked for re-thinks, some pointed out that it was going to create cookie-cutter specs and that too many felt that their individualism was being removed so that they could be herded like sheep into one pen. Did the devs listen or hear the points being made? Did they seem to care?

From my perspective they didn't because they went ahead exactly as it was first laid out despite our pleas and now, we're hearing that they have to change it because we were right and there are too many cookie-cutter specs out there and that we're not doing what the devs planned on. Why didn't they listen to us or care in the first place?

It really bothers me when you say that a lack of response or action doesn't mean that Blizzard doesn't care. Of course it does!

But that's your opinion and viewpoint (which you are welcome to.) Whether it is true or not is another matter. The fact that change continues to be made based on not only our own goals but that of the community feedback is evidence to the contrary. Whether you agree that it is or not though, is wholly up to you. Also, it seems you've taken the response out of context. We do respond, and we respond to a lot. Sometimes it's via the text we write and share here, sometimes it's via the text we write and share on the blog (yes we write a large portion of that), and sometimes it's what the developers add and change within the game with the patches. So, we are responding on a daily basis. It just may not always be to your one specific item, request, or viewpoint. Or even directed specifically at you.

As I said, it's not always possible to respond to everything, but again, that does not indicate lack of caring. Anyone who has seen us and spoken to us in person will understand how very passionate we are about what we do and the Blizzard Communities. Unfortunately, it's not as easy to convey when we are apart. It's one thing we absolutely love about BlizzCon is that it gives us that opportunity to see each other and understand each other at a deeper level. But since we can't do that here, we are simply stuck with you believing me or not. To that end, we may be at an impasse.

Again, your opinion is your own and I am not trying to disparage it, but to state that a lack of response is evidence of lack of caring is highly inaccurate.

For those that may have missed the Dungeon and Raid panel write-up we put together (though it may be briefer than the coverage some fansites did), you can read it here- http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/blog/3759858/WoW_Dungeons_and_Raids_Panel-10_21_2011

Please remember, we still have patch 4.3 coming and then we'll be going into more details from there on Mists of Pandaria as we continue development. It's great everyone has so many questions now (some of which may be answered during the live Q&A today) but, many of the answers will need to be given a bit later as we get further into development. We'll do our best to answer what we can along the way and let you know what the development team is thinking whenever possible as well.

I think the biggest problem in terms of Blizz's communication during Cata is that it's been so defensive - when it actually happens.

I fully supported Blues leaving the DD forums at the beginning of the expac, because it had turned into a QQ fest to get a blue response. BUT that's because I expected to get a steady stream of Dev Blogs and communication in other areas. It's been very few and far between, and often when you do respond seriously (I know you guys make a lot of fun posts, and those are appreciated too, but I'm talking about the serious ones) it's to respond to extremely negative (and way over the top) posts.

That makes a lot of us regular (and polite) posters feel like nobody is listening.

We're working on upping the communication levels in many ways (including Facebook and Twitter) and hopefully, we'll be able to bring back more regular live Q&A sessions like we're planning today. We like the live interaction and the ability to give answers more quickly with these sorts of dev interactions.

Your feedback is duly noted however. Thanks for posting it.

We're working on upping the communication levels in many ways (including Facebook and Twitter) and hopefully, we'll be able to bring back more regular live Q&A sessions like we're planning today. We like the live interaction and the ability to give answers more quickly with these sorts of dev interactions.

Your feedback is duly noted however. Thanks for posting it.

I do want to point out that the kind of feedback you're providing in this thread is fantastic, BTW. I'm also concerned that it isn't really sustainable.

I'd love it if you guys wrote a regular blog that came out once a week or even a Wow Insider type of thing where each of you tackled an "issue" and published a blog on it during the week. Then we could comment in the article itself (BTW, the comments in the blog need a lot of work, I think the comments should link to a thread where responding is easier/better).

At any rate, I appreciate that you're working on this as we go into MoP and then end of Cata.

Thanks for the thoughts. We definitely are always looking at ways to improve and agree that the blog comment system could use improvement so that we could hold more robust discussions. We're also always open to new blog ideas and topics.