Dude Why My Totem? - Blue Tracker

#0 - Aug. 7, 2010, 3:31 p.m.

Been working on this in the Shaman forums and the reception from people who didn't completely miss the point was good so here we go.

So Shaman used to be the buffing class, and our totems were second to none. But now the buffs are being spread across other classes. I have no problem with that, but the thing I realized is that Shaman have no motivation to drop totems if other buffs are present.

An example, if Windfury Totem is present, the Death Knight still has a motivation to keep Icy Talons up for 5% extra Haste for themselves. However, if Icy Talons is present, what motivation do Shaman have to put out Windfury Totem?

If Strength of Earth Totem is out, Warriors cast Battle Shout to generate Rage, and Death Knights cast Horn of Winter to generate Runic Power. If these buffs are already present, what motivation do Shaman have to put out Strength of Earth Totem?

We also see these buffs attached to talents that give other classes buffs, while Shaman are left with only the Totem. Demo Warlocks get 4% Spell Damage along with their talent that gives 10% Spellpower, and Shaman get a talent that gives our Fire Totems the ability to give 10% Spellpower, and nothing else.

So where is the motivation to use totems, and waste mana, when these buffs are present?

Ghostcrawler

#41 - Aug. 8, 2010, 6:02 a.m.

Q u o t e:
The only place where it's a problem is if you're giving up something that's important to your spec, and doing it often and for long periods of time. This was the case for Fire Totems for Elemental pre-Totemic Wrath - we had to give up damage in order to give Totem of Wrath (which we were one of only 2 classes that could do).

The same can only really strongly be said of one other case right now - and that's Strength of Earth vs Earth Utility (Stoneclaw, Tremor, and Earthbind) for Enhancement.

If they fix that one thing, I think totems as a buffing mechanic are fine given the new range increase (although I'm not sold that part of that should be in a talent yet).

This is a pretty common sentiment among shaman, but it's just not one we agree with. Elemental shaman having to give up their dps totem for a dps buff was a situation we weren't happy with. But Enhance giving up a dps buff for utility totems -- and very powerful utility totems -- isn't the same thing in our minds.

We don't want to have to balance the game around the assumption that Earthbind or Tremor Totem are up 100% of the time in a raid, which they would be if they also gave you the Strength of Earth buff. (For starters, we'd have to give equivalents to other classes since otherwise having a shaman would be a huge advantage.) Once you remove Tremor and Earthbind, (and disregarding Stoneclaw and Earth Elemental as super situational) then you're left with Strength of Earth vs. Stoneskin, and the powers of those two really aren't comparable. If you have one shaman, drop Strength of Earth. If you have two, or someone else who can bring that buff, then you can add Stoneskin. If you really need Earthbind or Tremor for an encounter, then you can live without Strength of Earth. Most of the time in PvE when you need those other two, it's not for the entirety of the fight anyway.

Ghostcrawler

#53 - Aug. 8, 2010, 6:32 a.m.

Q u o t e:
I realize that's the intent, but the perception (right or wrong) is that what few worthwhile buffs DPS shaman brought are now gone. DPS will be less than the other classes. So aside from bringing a resto shaman to a raid to cover the Stoneskin Totem and provide Earth Shield, there's no reason to bring any other shaman. It's no longer 'bring the player, not the class', but instead 'bring whatever you want but not shaman since they won't do as much dps and provide absolutely no utility that isn't provided by a better dps class'.

If the model was that shaman were brought for their buffs then that would be a problem. But the model is that shaman are brought because they contribute to the group as a whole, which includes bringing some buffs (and to be fair, more than most classes) but also doing competitive dps. If your dps is too low, then *that* is the problem, not that you don't bring a powerful buff so awesome that you're virtually guaranteed a raid spot even if you go AFK half the time.

Ghostcrawler

#55 - Aug. 8, 2010, 6:37 a.m.

Q u o t e:
I think perhaps you overestimate the utility of Strength of Earth, mainly because of Death Knights. It may, perhaps, just b e confirmation bias, but i can not seem to recall a time in recent memory when i DIDN'T have a dk using Horn. So in reality i have no choice, it's always Stoneskin, which seems paltry. Additionally, if that DK is frost, no need for windfury either. With the 5% spell haste being brought by other Specs come cata, i'm afraid i must put my hat in with the other shaman asking: Why use totems? Which isn't to say i won't be using them, it's too ingrained into me as a shaman XD It just makes me sad that my buffs are kinda useless with everybody else having them.

And if you have a paladin, you probably have Devotion Aura, so then there is no reason to drop Stoneskin either. And if the group also has a warrior, then that warrior might Battle Shout, rendering Horn of Winter useless. You just aren't going to be guaranteed a raid slot because you bring the only reasonable version of a group buff. The good news is that nobody is.

Ghostcrawler

#59 - Aug. 8, 2010, 6:43 a.m.

Q u o t e:
That's a perfectly reasonable position, GC. What however is your design plan to make us want to drop buff totems in a 25man raid environment where they will be overruled by more powerful, better optimized versions in almost every instance? I can't imagine you and the dev teams find it acceptable that a great many Shaman will be dropping a Fire Totem and only a Fire Totem in a 25man encounter unless something unique and situational is required (Tremor, Nature Resist, Grounding, Earthbind, etc)?

Nobody has more powerful versions. All raid buffs are identical in power in Cataclysm. Some have different durations or radii or other measurements of convenience. "I won't get brought because his buff is more powerful than mine," is a pretty reasonable argument. "I won't get brought because his buff is more convenient than mine," just doesn't carry the same punch.

Players are going to find themselves in situations all the time where they bring the same buff that someone else brings. Shaman and paladins are probably in the best situation of bring able to bring something no matter what else the group already has. But we still want for groups to be able to bring say two Fire mages, and in that case, their contributions are identical.

Ghostcrawler

#65 - Aug. 8, 2010, 6:47 a.m.

Q u o t e:
The problem is what shaman dps were low all wotlk and we are afraid of same thing may happen in cataclysm..so some shamans go with * we need to brind unic buff to get raid spot*

If shaman dps is going to stay the same way as now .. well the only option will be spec resto or gtfo

Enhancement's dps, to use an example, was fine on stationary fights as long as you aren't comparing yourself to someone using a legendary weapon. It was low on fights with a lot of movement, which as we've said several times, is a problem we want to fix.

Yet, even though Enhance's dps was low, there were thousands of dps shaman raiding ICC. By far the majority of raids had at least one. The only specs we really failed on in LK raiding were Frost mage, Subtlety rogue, BM hunter and Arms warrior. If Enhance's numbers are higher on mobility fights, then those participation numbers should only go up.