Same rage gen problems in Beta

#0 - Aug. 2, 2010, 8:11 p.m.
Blizzard Post
First, lets disect how rage generation will work in Cataclysm. The following information was posted here http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24038740387 by Bornakk, and I will be copying/pasting only the parts relevant to the actual mechanic itself. Here are our key points;

1) Rage is no longer generated based on damage done by auto-attacks. Instead, each auto-attack provides a set amount of Rage, and off-hand weapons will generate 50% of the Rage main hands do. This amount is based on a constant formula which factors in the base swing speed of the weapon.

2) If the attack is a critical strike, it will generate 200% Rage.

3) Haste will accelerate swing times to generate Rage faster.

The only problem we have with the new system in cataclysm is the same problem we had in BC and LK; the system scales too well with gear. Going from first hand reports given by beta players, the difference between rage gen in leveling gear and rage gen in end game gear is still wide.

Haste and Critical Rating affecting rage generation is the culplrit here, haste to a lesser extent compared to critical rating. These two stats, mainly crit, are the reason why our system is facing the same problems as before. The faster we swing, the more rage we generate. The more we crit, the more rage we generate. As it is currently in the beta, people at 80 in their 25 man gear have near infinite resources while players leveling from 78 to 83 have slow and clunky generation.

The new resource system has given blizzard a few knobs to turn to tune the way rage is generated. But depending on how they tune it, if they change it to make rage generation while leveling better, end game generation will sky rocket. If they tone it down a bit to normalize rage generation for end game, it will make generating rage even worse for leveling. The only way to fix this is to reduce the amount of rage generated by crits. Haste is not as effective as crit is, because all haste does is increase your swing timer, which increases how quick you can get those criticals. Reducing the amount of rage generated from criticals can remedy the situation. I don't know what number blizzard would be comfortable with as far as rage generated by crits, maybe 130% or 150% as opposed to the 200% that is in now.

Another big problem while leveling, or pvp'ing, is being missed or parried/dodged. This is another problem that is affected by rage generation scaling far too well with gear. As you get more hit, you stop getting misses. As you get more expertise, you stop getting parried/dodged. This is a problem that can be fixed alot more easily than haste/crit. Putting more hit rating on leveling gear could be done to fix the hit problem. If anyone leveled as fury in outlands and northrend, they'll know the terrible woes of charging in, missing your first two swings, and waiting 3+ seconds just to generate 20 or so rage. Missing a swing can either stop your generation in it's tracks, or hamper it. I know I'll probably be told that this is the reason hit is so valuable to warriors, but that isn't fixing the problem. I would suggest giving warriors half the rage of a main hand swing for missing, or just putting more Str/Hit gear for leveling.

To sum up what im saying, so long as crit and haste play such a big role in rage generation, our system will scale too well. We wll face the same problems as before. The problem we're having now in beta isn't as bad as lich king, because our rage isn't generated based on damage done or taken now. But, the amount of rage given by criticals is making rage gen too low/clunky/terrible while leveling, and almost too good at cap.
#23 - Aug. 8, 2010, 6:17 a.m.
Blizzard Post
We actually are concerned that even with normalization that rage scales too well with gear. Currently on beta, rage generation feels about right at level 80, but the income drops down more and more with higher levels. Now we have no doubt once warriors get epic gear with tons of haste and crit that they will have plenty of rage again, but that's the problem that rage normalization was really intended to fix.

The solution we're looking at, and I predict a lot you aren't going to like it, is not to have crits provide extra rage. That will let us bump rage income across the board without it getting infinite again at the epic level. This actually provides a certain amount of consistency with other classes because then crit would be about bigger numbers and haste would be about being able to do more because you have more resources to work with.

We think to feel right that warriors (and bears) generally need enough rage income to hit their main rotational buttons, but not Heroic Strike or Cleave. You might occasionally have to wait a second for that Bloodthirst or Mortal Strike, but we don't want that to be a regular occurrence (unless you just squandered your rage by playing badly.) Getting a lot of rage, because say you were stunned or took a lot of damage from something or the shaman popped Bloodlust, then just lets you Heroic Strike or Cleave more, get bigger Executes, save GCDs from going to Bloodrage, etc.

But also to feel right, this needs to occur in both quest greens and fully-gemmed and enchanted endgame gear. We don't think that is happening enough yet on beta.

Rest assured, you'll still scale just fine with gear.
#28 - Aug. 8, 2010, 7:02 a.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
-No comment on hit either. Like I said this stands to be the most efficient rage gen stat, and depending on how important rage gen is, it could be very potent. It also affects only fury warriors. If you're looking to remove bonus rage from a crit, are you considering also removing (or at least lowering) the penalty from a miss, which affects only one out of 3 specs?


We know Cataclysm warriors will value hit pretty highly, and to be honest that's not a bad place to be coming off of LK where warriors viewed hit as junk. Then again, part of that was because of the Heroic Strike bug, so maybe hit would have been more valuable even in LK.

We're also taking a hard look at combat ratings across the board right now in Cataclysm. We removed so many passive combat ratings from the talent trees (as well as things like Misery and the Draenei racial) that we're concerned that our current ratings are too brutal. If we relax those, then everyone will see their hit go up.

If after all that dust settles warriors still are penalized too much for a miss then we might consider something to address that, but only if we were confident that warriors would still desire hit on gear more than they did in LK.

Q u o t e:
-It is very reassuring to hear you say that you feel warriors should be able to hit rotational buttons but not HS/Cleave regardless of gear. That was really one of the biggest fears after your most recent round of posts, as it seemed to indicate that this was not the case. Delaying a second or two due to a bad luck streak of no crits/battle trance procs/too many misses is one thing, and perfectly acceptable, as that indicates either a very large anomaly, or that you were too liberal in using heroic strike/cleave and didn't leave yourself enough rage in reserve to account for such bad luck streaks. Either way it is acceptable as for a good player it shouldn't happen frequently.

It's just tricky because we know that warriors used to the Icecrown raiding environment are going to feel rage nerfed almost no matter what. Some of those warriors are going to complain about being rage starved anytime they aren't hitting Heroic Strike on cooldown. We just have to be very cautious when we get feedback. It is 100% supposed to be a nerf, but only to the degree of having to pay attention to that red bar up there under your health. It isn't supposed to be a dps nerf (minus the Heroic Strike bug and Shadowmourne and other things that make Fury dps too high on live).

Q u o t e:
I'm also not sure it's a terrible thing for really geared warriors to generate a little more rage than their lower geared counterparts. Right now on live, Rage goes from an issue to 'lol we use rage? lol'. I think you solved that problem already.


Totally. A little more rage is fine. Cats get more combo points as their geat gets better. Mages get more mana. We're just worried that the Cataclysm numbers currently in beta will make warriors still scale too well with gear, which means the leveling warriors don't have fun or the warriors facing the Bastion of Twilight out-dps the other classes.