Ret pally build 12604 feedback

#0 - July 23, 2010, 2:02 a.m.

First off I have to say, very, very nice. You got rid of quite a bit of the bloat.

Bloat concerns: There is still a little bloat in the tree itself - I would hope for a few more points to spend in situational talents, and indeed, more situational talents in general.

Suggestions - Roll Sanctity of Battle into Art of War. Make Crusade 2 points instead of three.

Customization concerns: Right now I'm spending only 3 points "freely" on situational talents for a generic PVE (raiding/heroics) damage build. I would have hoped for 5-6 points in situational talents in the Ret Tree, like the Combat tree for Rogues is right now (which I LOVE, btw!).

Suggestions - Speed increase during Hand of Freedom (a la Priest bubbles), "Walk through Flames" - you take 25/50% less damage when running out of ground-centered AOEs.

Final 10 points concern: For a generic PVE build, there's NOT a lot to choose from that would be useful from the other two trees, even on a situational level. Judgements of the Pure, Sanctified Light, and Seals of the Pure are basically required talents for a pally - but where to put the other two points? HOJ in Prot seems interesting, but it's not enough of a buff to really be worth two talent points to me (imo). The second tier Holy Talents do zero damage, and have zero funtionality for a ret pally...unless that ret pally is REALLY interested in making themselves go oom. I guess, from all the choices, I'd be taking Imp Lay on Hands.

Of course, I could go back into the Ret tree, nibble up a few more "situational talents" but that feels like I'm being forced away from my "new selections".

Suggestions - put Enlightened Judgments in Holy into Tier 2. Or do something wild with Imp HOJ and give it a different sort of oomph (length of stun, reset DR on stuns on that target...) Having it be only CD related makes it a bad choice for PVEers, who will usually not be asked to use a lenghty CD in order to CC.

Repentance Concern: One thing I have a great issue with is making Repentance optional. I didn't take it because I wanted to see if I could avoid it, but making that a CHOICE for newer players who may not understand the need for CC...seems a little cruel.

Suggestion - If you made Repentance a "get at lvl 10" ability, you could make the talent that rests in that location effect Repentance. Ideally, it would be like Improved Polymorph and have a chance to resist popping on damage, or adding a stun component if it should be broken early. (that way it would be a multi-point ability, and force people to make more choices over the forms of utility found in the ret tree)

I have to say though, this is a huge improvement over last time.

Ghostcrawler

#11 - July 23, 2010, 4:58 a.m.

We have been trying Crusader Strike out at both 3 seconds and 4 seconds to see what fits the best. At the moment it is 3 sec (talented) for Ret and 4 sec for Prot and Holy. It all depends on how many other things are going on that you have to juggle. Inquisition, Zealotry and Exorcism and Divine Purpose procs in addition to the basics of CS, TV and Judgement with Holy Wrath filling in any holes can add up to a lot.

While we definitely want Ret to have an actual rotation in the sense that you aren't just hitting things when they come off of cooldown, we don't want to make it more complex than the other dps specs in the game. :)

Ghostcrawler

#123 - July 23, 2010, 7:20 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Bear in mind that Blizzard wants us to take situational talents now (instead of skipping most if not all of them). The ones they've offered might not be that great at the moment, but that's not going to stop them from offering things that do not necessarily increase our damage but instead change our utility, or making sure you've got to take at least a few as you progress down a tree.

Exactly. This is the kind of thing a lot of players are going to have to get used to, and frankly, it's a paradigm shift we are still adjusting to as well. We want there to be some talents where you say "Hmmm. I'm not sure I want that." The "Hmmm" is key. :) If everyone can instantly dismiss a given talent as garbage, then it's not a decision. It's also not a decision if you are comparing say Selfless Healer to a +10% self damage talent on a primary ability.

Ghostcrawler

#160 - July 23, 2010, 8:18 p.m.

Q u o t e:
I read just a few moments ago on the Cataclysm beta forums that Avenging Wrath cancels Zealotry.

That's a bug if it's happening.

Ghostcrawler

#163 - July 23, 2010, 8:23 p.m.

Q u o t e:
We'd be able to make more informed decisions and give better feedback about them if we knew what the new glyphs were or, hell, what the old glyphs are going to turn into. Though it may be a bit early for that if the talents keep changing so drastically.

You'd be better off just ignoring glyphs completely at this point. Trying to view the talent changes through the lens of old glyphs is just going to lead to strange feedback. This is true of every class. We have turned off some glyphs in beta that really change gameplay to the extent that it will mess up feedback. Perhaps we should just turn them all off until we work on glyphs.

Ghostcrawler

#166 - July 23, 2010, 8:26 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Imp Judge, Sanctity of Battle and Art of War all feel a bit non-negotiable

There are going to be non-negotiable talents. We don't really want to make the Prot spec that skips Hammer of the Righteous to be competitive. We don't want every talent to feel like that though.

Ghostcrawler

#233 - July 24, 2010, 12:10 a.m.

Q u o t e:
"Haste for melee and physical ranged DPS classes will affect the rate at which energy, rage, focus and runes are gained. Enhancement shamans and retribution paladins will gain talents which allow them to gain similar benefits from haste. It will continue to provide weapon speed increases for these classes[12]. Haste for casters is unchanged."

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23425636414&pageNo=6#117

Is this still going to be the case? If so I don't see any talents that play off of the haste gains other classes are receiving.

Excellent question. It isn't a talent, but Seal of Truth (Seal of Vengeance) will tick faster with haste and
Judgement of the Wise's periodic mana energize will tick faster with haste. A Ret paladin with enough haste might have enough mana to throw out the occasional Consecration, while a fresh 85 might not be able to afford it often.

Haste is already really attractive for Enhancement, especially with Maelstrom Weapon, so they are probably fine.