Serious question for developers (Talents)

#0 - June 10, 2010, 9:23 a.m.

Can you explain the design intent behind notoriously hated talents that seem to survive patch after patch unchanged?

I am specifically referring to Riposte in this discussion but seeing as I have many alts, I have developed a love/hate relationship with many-an-activated talent. The expression on my face when I begrudgingly put a point into Lightwell on my priest is equivalent to a mug shot. Counterattack is, hilariously, the new Lacerate (when lacerate was a hunter ability). Ghostly strike being 86ed was a great decision! Backstab (while not a talent) was another one of those lame duck abilities that didn't really do anything (until now... Murderous Intent anyone?) Oh and thank you for making Expose armor worth a spot on my bar again.

In the case of Lightwell, I understand the ability is actually great. It is the other players who refuse to use it. Should rated BG's take off, the light well will become an AMAZING talent (provided it is not so easily murdered).

But in the case of Counter attack and Riposte, the abilities are simply unattractive. Hunters have SO MANY other attractive choices when stuck in melee, we really do not wish to use a global CD on short duration root and still crawl away from the attacker going 50% speed. Master's Call (i wish it made a nice graphic like Blessing of freedom) coupled with scatter shot, entrapment, and disengage trump Counter attack so hard, most hunters forget that talent exists. Don't hunter's have something in the realm of 8% parry after specific talents? ...

But everything I said so far is moot. Counter attack may very well be removed in your internal data already. Riposte, however, is still there and still just as terrible as before. (Yea I know it used to disarm... over 2 years ago). Riposte is shockingly unattractive. In PVE, I am not getting attacked, the tank is. It won't (can't) get used. In PVP, our parry rate is not sufficient to support there being a talent for it. The move is obviously meant for PVP and only PVP. Can it do something more... PVPish?

20% attack speed reduction is NOT a PVP debuff. PVP is all about burst, yellow damage. The last thing I care about is slowing their swing speed. Why can't Riposte be an ability that (along with the 20% swing increase) caused the Rogue to debate whether they should use it over another ability based on what it does? Can riposte be not just another cool way to swing your sword with a fancy name? Why can't counterattack do something like that too? Why not have an activated, talented, PVP-only melee ability do something... special?

Okay, obviously I am leading into something here. So here it is...

Riposte (1 point) - 10 Energy - Melee Range - Instant - 30 sec cooldown

Ghostcrawler

#4 - June 10, 2010, 6 p.m.

We generally keep talents because we think the core idea is strong even if the current numbers or the current combat environment don't allow the talent to shine. Original ideas by their very nature are going to be harder to get right than clones of other abilities. But we need more original ideas and fewer clones. Turning Lightwell into Healing Stream Totem would almost certainly work. But would it be interesting? Do Holy priests even need another smart heal?

The problem with both Lightwell and Riposte in LK has to do with the pace of combat. A small self-heal isn't useful in an environment where the healers either keep you up easily or you die to spike damage regardless of the decisions you make. An attack speed debuff isn't super useful in a PvP environment where players die so quickly. But with the larger health pools in Cataclysm, both of those talents become more useful. Saving priest mana and GCDs by using Lightwell could help turn a failure into a victory. Slowing down incoming damage can help a rogue go toe-to-toe with another melee class.

Counterattack is probably going away. We haven't released new hunter trees yet. Shiv is changing a little bit to be more of an enrage dispel.

Ghostcrawler

#57 - June 12, 2010, 5:03 a.m.

Anesthetic Poison might very well go away and Shiv just become the anesthetic equivalent. Little too early to tell on that one.

Malice is the kind of thing we'd like to replace, but we'd rather the trees work than just rip out every passive stat talent just because, so we'll only replace it if we come with something we're really excited about. Precision is fine -- being able to remove some hit dependency is useful to every dps spec and the kind of thing you could consider talenting out of if your gear put you over the cap.

I may have spoken too soon on Counterattack. Just today we discussed keeping it and getting rid of Mongoose instead. There are some legit PvP uses of hunter melee attacks, so long as the class doesn't feel like it's supposed to be a melee-ranged hybrid. You're ranged.