Does Blizzard even care about customers?

I would prefer that Blizzard just tell the truth and tell us that they don't care about pugs or ninjas and are happy to support ninjas in screwing the rest of us. This would be vastly preferable to lying to our faces and saying that we can get items restored if we make sure that loot rules are stated etc.

The truth has always been fairly clear, Minoss. With the looting mechanics in game it is not possible to "ninja" an item. Only those members who are qualified to obtain the item have the option to loot it.

What is Blizzard Entertainment's stance on "ninja looting" within the World of Warcraft?
http://us.blizzard.com/support/article/17761

Based on the looting method you use that denotes how loot is distributed and what the determining factor is. Master Loot has never been intended to be used for pick up groups, it is a looting method intended for guilds and others who have reason to trust one another.

The group leader of a party/raid has the power to determine how loot is handled, you have the power to not join that group if you disagree with the looting method desired. If Master Looter is used you are giving one person the power to decide how loot will be distributed and they mostly have final say how items will be awarded to party/raid members or if they will be passed out at all.

If you insist on participating in a pick up group that uses the Master Loot system and definitive looting rules were stated by the Master Looter, if those rules are not upheld In-Game Support will address the matter to verify if a scam took place.

It is the behavior that we are looking at though, not the fact that you did or did not get X item. These practices fall under our Scam Policy, we do not normally intervene on looting disputes and even if the actions are considered a scam that does not mean we will be able to redistribute loot.

04/05/2011 02:31 PMPosted by Minoss

PS If this thread gets deleted it only supports my points- it is worded carefully so as not to disregard the terms of use.

No, deletion of an inappropriate post doesn't validate your point, as your post does contain violations of our Code of Conduct. For instance, do you really think calling us lying good-for-nothing hypocrites isn't a basis for deletion? I have no intention of deleting this thread, but it isn't because it could validate your accusations.

Harassing or Defamatory

This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:
* Insultingly refer to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people

http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct

04/05/2011 02:35 PMPosted by Minoss

And the least they could do is send a real person to talk to me...

To what end, Minoss? While we try to speak directly to players when possible in order to keep queue times down we generally don't unless more information is needed. The only thing that they would be able to tell you is that we will look into this matter and take appropriate actions based on any violations found. That redistribution of any removed loot may not be possible but you will receive the item or items if it can be done. Or, that we have looked into the matter and took appropriate actions and that we either were able to award X item or not.

04/05/2011 03:00 PMPosted by Minoss

The loot rules were "whoever rolls highest 1-100 wins the piece, nothing on reserve"

I'm sorry, Minoss, but you may be misremembering, the looting "rules" were: "MS > OS PVP is Free roll".

04/05/2011 03:16 PMPosted by Minoss

But I was just told by a GM that even if they punish the player who ran the scam it is NOT policy to return the item to its rightful owner.

The Game Master did not state that. They said that while we will take action for anyone found to be in violation of our scam policy we are unable to redistribute loot.

04/05/2011 03:17 PMPosted by Minoss

Do you guys think I should open a third ticket or just drop the matter?

While many believe it is simply a matter of "petition until you get someone who will agree with you", it isn't. Our Game Masters follow specific policies regarding these matters. I'm sorry, Minoss, but we will be unable to redistribute loot, it is not an aspect of the game we generally become involved in.

04/05/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Minoss

First of all we had the master looter further clarify the looting rules because the ones you quoted were too ambiguous.

Yes, I see some further clarification. No reserves, etc. . . .

04/05/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Minoss

the fact remains that Blizzard employees have insinuated in the past that people who are loot-scammed may have items returned to them- which is directly in conflict with what the GM told me.

Yes, "may". "May" and "will" are entirely different words though, Minoss. It is entirely circumstantial, depending on the situation. In your case it was not a situation in which we may be able to assist in the redistribution of loot.

04/05/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Minoss

Also I am pretty sure that the game would lose quite a few players if people only played with their friends and guildmates.

You aren't required to only play with friends and guildmates, Minoss, but understand that Master Loot is not the recommended looting method for such groups. We will investigate possible scams but players need to take responsibility for their own protection as well, which is why the loot methods that are in game are there.

04/05/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Minoss

Blizzard take a lot more interest in protecting its customers from predatory players and loot-scammers...it would be pretty easy to change the policy.

Perhaps, but would it be easy to enforce it? Would it be feasible to have an outside authority become involved in every looting situation across 220+ realms on the thousands of raids/groups that occur every day?

That is why we have the looting mechanics that we do. Need before Greed is an excellent and intended looting option for pick up groups. Allowing only those who qualify for loot to roll on it. Unfortunately there are those who do not like others rolling on items that they aren't actually running the instance as, so they would rather give their control over loot to one solitary person to determine how to pass out the loot.

You may believe we don't care, Minoss, and you also seem to be under the impression that we have no idea what it is like to be a player. That we are some out of touch corporation but we play this game too and we have a vested interest in doing what we can to make certain that it is a fun and fair environment.

We care a great deal but we can only do so much. Do you care to use the tools that have been given to you to help protect you against those who may not be entirely honorable?

04/05/2011 05:44 PMPosted by Luinnes

Explain to me, why, say in a heroic, it is okay for a healer that wears mail to roll on a leather dps piece?

If you are using Need before Greed, which should be fully enabled for level 70 characters and above, a character who can wear Chain should not be able to Need Leather. They can Greed it though. If it is not working like this it would be considered a bug and should be reported appropriately.

04/05/2011 05:44 PMPosted by Luinnes

Even more to consider, why are players allowed to roll need on items that are not in spec to use at the time of drop?

Because they CAN use the item and there is no reason that they should not be able to roll for an item that they can otherwise us. This is a fundamental difference in stance between some players and our Development teams.

If you wish to see items categories for specific roles and believe only while you are in that spec you can roll on it you are welcome to post in the Dungeons and Raids forum with your constructive feedback.

What you will get though is undergeared tanks/healers, etc... trying to fill out their off spec or even their main spec gear while they would be better suited to DSP because they have had better luck acquiring that gear.

04/05/2011 05:44 PMPosted by Luinnes

The current LFD tool already knows who is dps, tank, heals due to the player checking their role at queue. Is it really such a stretch to add the element of only allowing either proper roles and/or specs to NEED roll on a drop?

To go through all the available gear in the game and categorize it as Tank, DPS or Healing in addition to the specific Classes that is able to use it?

You really wish for someone else to micromanage your gear choices based on what they believe a Tank, Healer or DPS should be able to use? If so, again, feel free to post in the Dungeons and Raids forum.

04/05/2011 06:00 PMPosted by Luinnes

If you had read the first part of my post you'd know it was directed at Vrakthris. Your post is invalid to me as you are neither a dev nor cm.

Well technically, Luinnes, neither am I. I am not a Developer nor do I serve as a liaison to them. These forums also are for players to discuss the game with other players. This is not a contact point for our Development team and while they appreciate any constructive feedback you wish to provide in the appropriate location they are generally unable to reply to it.

So what you're you're saying is that people who follow loot courtesy and only roll on gear for the spec they're playing in and ask before rolling on off spec gear are going to be undergeared and struggling.

No, I did not say that, Moaraine. I did not say that would happen every time but it is a possibility if characters were only able to receive gear that was specific to the spec they were currently using.

04/05/2011 06:21 PMPosted by Moaraine

Before the LFD loot courtesy was followed almost exclusively by every server group, that's how server black lists were developed and enforced. The rise of the LFD is what has seen the era of "if the shiny dice light up you can take whatever you want".

That may be the "back in my day" memory of it but "courtesy system" as you called it was not adhered to by every person and the "black lists" were not entirely effective. Perhaps prior to transfer availability but it didn't keep people from rolling on whatever items they wanted based on the looting system used.

04/05/2011 06:21 PMPosted by Moaraine

you should not state your opinion on how the courtesy system works as fact.

I haven't, but I'm sorry if you took it that way. I think this thread has gone on a longer than it should have.