Blizzard Policy Seems to Promote Loot Theft

#0 - Jan. 10, 2010, 11 p.m.

I have been playing WoW for 5 years last December and recently Blizzards actions on ingame theft is making me consider a different MMO.

I was in a 25M ToC PuG. Death Verdict Drops. The item was mislooted to someone who lost the roll on their initial roll, but rolled a second time. The Master Looter did not see the fist roll until after he had given the item to the other player. Once the master looter saw his mistake he asked the item be given to me. The player would not give the item to me. He knew he was stealing he even made a statement to asking why he should have a conscience in a video game. There were many tells between the master looter, myself and the person the item was mislooted to. Aside from just tells, it was also talked about in raid chat. It was such an obvious and glaring theft, that person was kicked from his guild over it.

CLEARLY the item was mislooted. CLEARLY the person who it was mislooted to was aware they were "stealing" and CLEARLY Blizzard condones such actions through inaction and ambiguity. I will state my case.

In the original response to my petition, Blizzard states "We will investigate your report and take all necessary and appropriate actions to address this matter. Due to privacy concerns, we will not be able to notify you of our findings, nor of the actions necessary for resolution of this issue."

WHAT? I put in a ticket about loot theft. How can you NOT tell me if I will be awared the item or not? How is that a privacy issue? Am I just supposed to figure out what action was taken based on whether I recieved the item or not , and how long does such an investigation take?

The initial petition response, had me thinking, I was not clear as to what had happened. So, I sent an email to WoWGM to further explain and to seek further clarification myself. This is the response I received, "Unfortunately, we are only able to accept petitions to transfer Bind on Pickup Items from the person who mistakenly possesses the item. We will be glad to investigate the matter once we are contacted by said character, so any assistance you can lend in forwarding this information to them would be appreciated. Please note, depending on a variety of factors; we may or may not be able to offer the requested item transfer between characters."

First off, why was this not the first response? Second... LOLWUT? OF COURSE the player will not do that because he is STEALING the item. We have 2 hours to trade the item with in the raid. If he wanted to give up the item he wold have done so shortly after it was mislooted to him. This is totally and utterly a failure of policy, a lack of concern or a complete lack of invetigating/confirming my petition. You only have to review the chat log to confirm my statement.

If this were an isolated incident with me I would have just figured someone really did not want to be working on the weekend and possibly let it go. However, it is not isolated, and in fact, directly contradicts a response to a different petition I submitted. I was once in a 25m Ony PuG where the Master Looter had us roll on the head. I won the roll but then he gave the loot to himself and stated, the rolls and loot rules did not matter, that he deserved the item for putting the raid together... I cannot directly quote the response from Blizzard because I did not save the email. However, I was not awarded the item because the master looter has the ultimate say in who gets what loot. OK fine... So when the master looter in the 25m ToC mislooted and told the person he mislooted it to to give the item to me, then I should get the item, no matter what. Even if it means I have to put in a ticket to get the item. The master looter told me he also put in a ticket and yet I still do not have the item.

Thefore one must conclude: lack of consistant policy, poor policy, and condoning theft on the part of Blizzard. I do not like to take such disagreements public, but I do not know what else to do. The chances of winning that item again are quite slim. I really want to feel that I am speaking with someone and not just getting a standard response but I never seem to be online when my petitions are responded to. I am online almost all of the time. I don't work, I don't go to school and I have 3 level 80 toons above 5.1KGS and a level 75 max herb/alch. I did not intend for this post to be epically long, but I needed to state my case and I need actual dialogue with a GM and not just standardized do not reply emails.

Thank you for your time.

Vrakthris

#5 - Jan. 10, 2010, 11:25 p.m.

Q u o t e:
First off, why was this not the first response?

That was the first response, PwnstÃ¥r, because your petition seemed to be reporting a harassment issue. If we receive a harassment report the message that the matter will be looked into and all appropriate actions taken for any verified violations of our policy found is the only message we are able to provide.

Q u o t e:
Second... LOLWUT? OF COURSE the player will not do that because he is STEALING the item.

The player is not stealing the item, they are simply keeping the item. They were given the item by the Master Looter and once the item has been received it is theirs. Did the Master Looter intend to give that person the item? As you have indicated, no they didn't, but that doesn't mean the person is stealing the item. Nor does it mean that we will be able to intervene.

Q u o t e:

So when the master looter in the 25m ToC mislooted and told the person he mislooted it to to give the item to me, then I should get the item, no matter what.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. The Master Looter may have the final say as to who the item is distributed to but that authority ends once they have actually assigned the item and that item has been received.

Q u o t e:

Thefore one must conclude: lack of consistant policy, poor policy, and condoning theft on the part of Blizzard. I do not like to take such disagreements public, but I do not know what else to do.

The policy is consistent, though it should be noted in rare circumstances we have been able to intervene in looting disputes. They are not common and only happen in specific cases but overall our policy stands that if you use the Master Looting system you have given that person the right to determine who the items will be given to.

Q u o t e:
I really want to feel that I am speaking with someone and not just getting a standard response but I never seem to be online when my petitions are responded to.

The Game Master department will be unable to discuss our policies with you, PwnstÃ¥r, if you feel that such policies need to be changed you are welcome to post on the Suggestion forum. Our developers and policy makers read the forum frequently, and take into consideration all suggestions, even if they are unable to directly reply to them.

Vrakthris

#17 - Jan. 11, 2010, 12:34 a.m.

It would be best to avoid analogies, Vermillion, especially when they don't apply.

In your example the item that the Master Looter has is already yours. In a looting situation the item isn't yours.

Q u o t e:

An accident is an accident - the player is stealing something that was given to him by mistake. You may have a policy to abide by but as a human being even you know this is true Mr. Blue

No, Vermillion, I don't know that to be true. What I know to be true is how the mechanic works. Do I think it unfortunate that your Master Looter made an error and the person who benefited from that error refuses to give the item to you? Absolutely, but I don't believe that it is something that the Game Master department should become involved in.

Q u o t e:

So because I say something YOU don't like, I'm trolling. Got it.

No, it isn't because it is simply that someone disagrees, Vermillion. Your posts are trolling posts. When someone disputed your analogy you replied with "Whatever". Statements like that doesn't lend itself towards a discussion or debate, it generally means you do not think what the other person has said is important, thus negating any possible discussion.

Q u o t e:
/golfclap

That is also further example of trolling.

Please stop.

Vrakthris

#20 - Jan. 11, 2010, 12:42 a.m.

Q u o t e:

It is a great game of semantics for you to say that he is keeping the item and not stealing it. I am pretty sure that if a valet gave me the keys to someone's Ferrari and I drove away with it, I would get arrested for grand larceny. I am not so sure could just tell the Judge, "I didn't steal it. It was givien to me. I am keeping it," and he would just let me have it.

Again, in that example someone already "owns" the car. The Master Looter is not a valet, you didn't give them loot to give back to you at a later time. The loot, until distributed, is owned by the Master Looter. Once distributed those items become the property of who received them.

Q u o t e:

It was my "car." The "valet" screwed up. You are the authorities and should intervene.

Real world analogies are not relevant. The "Car" was not yours. It is an item of temporary ownership in a transitional state.

Vrakthris

#22 - Jan. 11, 2010, 12:44 a.m.

Q u o t e:
Just another fanboy...I love it...
If you read any of these forums, you would see that blizzard has on numerous occasions fixed issues like this..

Altho, I agree if you don't like ML..don't do it..ppl fail..

As I said, Ivebeenhacke, we have become involved in specific circumstances. You may not understand the full extent of what may have happened in the cases that you may have seen. This is not one of those situations in which we would likely become involved as no scam has taken place.

Vrakthris

#30 - Jan. 11, 2010, 12:55 a.m.

Q u o t e:
The analogy does work. A winning roll is used determind ownership. The point of ownership was therefore determined prior to the ML error. Therefore the item was in fact "mis-deposited"

A Winning roll when using the Need before Greed or Group Loot mechanic determines ownership. Rolling a random dice is used by the Master Looter to determine who they may give the items to. That doesn't make those items automatically that persons.

Again, PwnstÃ¥r, if you would like to see our policies change you are welcome to post in the Suggestion forum.

Vrakthris

#41 - Jan. 11, 2010, 6:13 a.m.

Q u o t e:
I don't agree that possession = ownership.

You may not, Aidenorestes, though if you wish for the roll to be the only determining factor for awarding loot then it would be better to use one of the other looting methods available.

If I might adjust the previous car analogy since an analogy is what everyone seems to be striving for.

Let's say the Master Looter has a car and he is going to give it to either Player A or Player B. He decides on Player B based on the flip of a coin or a promise to paint his house, etc... but he signs Player A's name to the deed and hands that deed to Player A.

You can call the local authorities but there is nothing that they will be able to do as the car officially belongs to Player A, as granted by the deed.

Obviously we do not have a deed for an item, which is why real world analogies for such a situation are nearly useless. Possession is the major determining factor when it comes to ownership of the item.

The item from a boss does not technically belong to anyone when the boss first dies. If the Master Looting system is used the Master Looter determines who receives the item. Barring any other condition, as soon as the Master Looter not only assigns the loot but confirms that "YES" that is the person they want to give X to, the item belongs to that person.

Q u o t e:

I do not understand why in this situation Blizzard does not intervene and move said item to its proper owner.

There are certain things we will intervene on and certain things we will not. There are a number of protections that have been implemented to assist players. The Master Looter now receives a confirmation box when assigning loot. It states who the item will go to and what the item is. They not only assigned the loot initially they also confirmed that yes, that is who they want the item to go to.

We are willing to help when we can but we can only do so much. We have implemented a number of rules that help deal with harassment and possible scams along with many mechanics to help you protect yourselves, at some point you simply have to understand that there are consequences for a "confirmed" mistake and hopefully use more caution in the future.