SimCraft and WMO - Blue Tracker

#0 - Jan. 7, 2010, 4:55 p.m.

Player including the Devs are telling us that these tools theses data banks should not be used when discussing class balance.

But they are asking us to make informed intelligent discussions using data and experience to make our point.

So I'm asking what data other then those two do we have? Do we have access to the same data that Blizz uses?

Simcraft is a control it takes out all the variables in a fight its a control to measure of a class dps performance.

They are asking us to use real life raids to use as a measuring tool to make those discoveries

How do you use that as a yard stick when every time you use it it changes? You have to have a control you have to have a set sterile environment to do so

So that leaves us with WMO which is a poll of class/specs dps on certain boss fights. But again people are telling us that's flawed and shouldn't be used because it doesn't show the big picture there isn't enough participants to make it a real snap shot of a certain class dps standings

So the only thing we have to try to back up our point is experience and that can always be fabricated, opinionated, bias and there is no tangible proof of it.

So what is a player to do, what data do we have at our disposal we can use to make a point, to have a informed intelligent discussion when the only tools/data we have at our disposal is flawed and should not be used?

Ghostcrawler

#25 - Jan. 7, 2010, 9:46 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Player including the Devs are telling us that these tools theses data banks should not be used when discussing class balance.

I don't think I've ever said that. What I usually say is be careful how you use any tool and that includes making sure you know how it works and what its limitations are.

Also realize that we have access to all of those tools and plenty of others, so if you're just making a post that is essentially a number, you're not really adding much to the discussion. You can post that your iPhone says it's 68 degrees in So Cal today, but not many players would really learn that much from the discussion. Posting that SimCraft estimates DK dps at 9500 dps doesn't really either.

Ghostcrawler

#28 - Jan. 7, 2010, 9:52 p.m.

I'm going to quote all of these players too, because they explain it better than I can:

Q u o t e:
They're asking you to recognize their limitations and use the information they provide appropriately in your arguments, rather than simply pointing at the numbers and using themas your argument.

Saying, "SimulationCraft puts Feral at X" or "Feral is placing Y on WMO" is not useful.

Saying, "When I add movement parameters to SimulationCraft, Feral DPS goes down by X; this is similar to the difference I'm seeing between Saurfang (where I sit on the boss) and Marrowgar (where I move around a lot) in my actual raid parses. I think Feral loses too much damage in movement fights, and both these tools seem to support that conclusion; here is what I think is happening (blah blah blah) and here is why I think it's a problem (blah blah blah)" is considerably more useful.

Q u o t e:
They don't like people who just point out that Rogues are too high, or Ele is too low. They want us to take our time and understand why there is such a difference. Even if the devs don't agree with your assessment, it will make them stop and think and try to figure out what it is that makes you see the problem the way you do. If you don't provide that viewpoint, that assessment that goes beyond simple output numbers, they can't get that new perspective on the situation.

They know what SimCraft and WMO are showing, we don't have to point it out to them, they want to know what we think are the reasons that things are what they are.

Q u o t e:
What they (Blizzard) is asking for is for you to provide some analysis to the numbers that you post. I could grab statistics that say escalators cause injuries to 50% (and for the sake of my point let accept the number to be as accurate as simcraft/etc.) of the people who use them. Ok then that means escalators are dangerous so we should remove them all? No we look to the cause. After analyzing these injuries we determine that 98% of these injuries are because people are using them wrong (running up them, pushing people down them, sticking you hand in the steps at the bottom/top, and sliding down the rail). After the analysis we determine escalators are safe when used properly. The initial number posted looks really bad, but then through analysis of why the number is so, we determine other factors make that number considerably worse than it is.

Q u o t e:
If 50% of people are getting hurt on escalators, Blizzard knows it. That's such a grossly simple statistic to acquire given the data they have at their fingertips that simply pointing and yelling about it isn't telling them anything they don't already know.

What is useful to them is watching people speculate on and argue over the reasons why people are getting hurt on escalators, and whether the severity of the injuries is enough to merit serious attention. This is the sort of discussion from which interesting ideas and possible solutions can emerge.

Q u o t e:
No you need both sides of the argument to have an argument, and that is where the Rogues are needed. You need to convince the devs or at least help them think in a different way when approaching their observations/numbers. So no it is not "us against the devs and rogues" its "us against the rogues" with the devs mediating it.