Brewfest and the Casual Content Debate

#0 - Oct. 6, 2007, 1:12 a.m.

This probably wont' be brief, because I don't think it needs to be, and I hope it'll be well written enough to get the point across without giving the trolls too much ammo, but feel free to flame away!

I saw a CM post recently that said something to the effect of 'you guys just don't give us credit for all the effort we put into casual content'. I paraphrase because I can't find the original post but I saw it before Brewfest started and tough 'wow, that's good, they really do care'.

Then Brewfest happened, and it's the same old story. The top prize for it, even though it's completely cosmetic, requires a substantial amount of participation. This isn't a bad thing by any means and it's something good I think for everyone involved. It's not like you're getting super loot by just logging on 10 days in a row, but my estimates were that you'd need to log on for at least an hour or two for 9 of the 14 days worth of Brewfest. To plenty of people, this is in fact hardcore behavior. To the Weekend Warriors (of which there are plenty I assume) getting the Ram Mount is an impossible goal. For casual content, i think this is somewhat unacceptable. It was vaguely possible to spend 6-7 hours at a time on the game for two days (or a lot of time one day!) when the Dark Iron Attacks worked to get the Ram Mount without a strong commitment to the game, but as those were poorly planned and fatally flawed from the begining the only way now to get the Ram Mount is by logging on daily, doing your 2 quests and hope you can come back on the flip side of 12 hours to run the rams again. (I'm not sure that logging on twice in the same day, 12 hours apart qualifies as casual either...)

On top of it all, we're ripped off two days for the brewfest with a cute gimmick of setting it up. I don't think it would have offended anyone if you'd just given it a 6hr setup at the most, and advertising an event as 14-day, when it's really only 12 was just another sign of disrespect towards the casual gamer.

I don't expect things to be awesome and free. I love to work for them, I love challenges. People can claim that Arena and BG's do this, but Arena and BG's aren't necessarily challenging to get your cookies. BG's just take time spent, Arenas can now be bought for gold.

So, the raiding quotient of the game gets a new raid instance on a regular basis with almost every major patch. There are tons of top-shelf items added all the time, and a vast amount of attention paid to keeping these people happy. Non-raiders have seen one instance patched into the game since launch outside of a full expansion pack, and that's Dire Maul. We've had one questline, the very awesome and difficult while being fairly rewarding for non-raid content Dungeon Set upgrade questline. Things like this appeal to the casual gamer. We don't need half-baked brewfests that were nothing more than a shiny diversion to give developers a chance to say "see! we make casual content too, don't say I never gave you nothin you ungrateful brats!" much like giving a dollar to a homeless man shows that you're a charitable person. It shows a significant lack of care about the non-raiding community to have events like this presented in such a disrespectful manner.

The Dark Iron Attacks were doomed from the start. Someone on the dev team at one point said that they'd learned from their AQ gate mistakes of clumping people in a small area for an event, but clearly that advice was solidly ignored for this. Instead of dwarves attacking multiple spots, clearly coralling everyone into a single pen wasn't going to work. Ever. If not for the large amounts of people, for the large amounts of people who just want to ruin everyone's fun by AOE'ing spells, and /wave macros and anything else they can do to be disruptive. Further, the idea that the rest of the quests were alternately working or not working seemed a bit disrespectful as well.

For all the raiders who think I'm just whining... Lets imagine a scenario where Sunwell Plateau is introduced next month. It's going to be on a timer, such that it opens on Nov 1, and will cease to exist entirely for another year (if it comes back, we haven't seen another Scourge Invasion since the first one) after lets say 90 days. Instead of it fully working for the first two weeks though, lets imagine that the 3rd boss doesn't work, constantly wipes the raid for no reason and is otherwise unkillable. Imagine that it takes two weeks to fix this. You've literally lost time that you won't get back. There's nothing anyone can or will do about it, you've just lost out on at least two attempts to get this loot that you'd really like to have. You're willing to put out the effort to get it, but your window of opportunity will never get wider. Would this be an acceptable scenario? Of course not, that's why raid instances stick around forever and "fun" events go away in two weeks whether they worked right or not.

Nobody's saying we want free epics when we log in. We just want more than busted world events with nearly unobtainable rewards. I'm sure lots of people (especially raiders) will claim that it's just supposed to be stupid fun, but when a good reward for casual players is involved at the end of it all, and it also happens to be tied to the ability to participate on a daily basis... and most of that daily basis is removed from the start... the fun gets sucked out of it very quickly. It's made me feel for the most part, that yet again it's proven that if you don't raid in this game, you barely matter. And that's kinda sad.

Kisirani

#8 - Oct. 6, 2007, 2:22 a.m.

*rubs hands together* I will quote the relevant sections of your post.

Q u o t e:
Then Brewfest happened, and it's the same old story. The top prize for it, even though it's completely cosmetic, requires a substantial amount of participation. This isn't a bad thing by any means and it's something good I think for everyone involved. It's not like you're getting super loot by just logging on 10 days in a row, but my estimates were that you'd need to log on for at least an hour or two for 9 of the 14 days worth of Brewfest. To plenty of people, this is in fact hardcore behavior. To the Weekend Warriors (of which there are plenty I assume) getting the Ram Mount is an impossible goal. For casual content, i think this is somewhat unacceptable. It was vaguely possible to spend 6-7 hours at a time on the game for two days (or a lot of time one day!) when the Dark Iron Attacks worked to get the Ram Mount without a strong commitment to the game, but as those were poorly planned and fatally flawed from the begining the only way now to get the Ram Mount is by logging on daily, doing your 2 quests and hope you can come back on the flip side of 12 hours to run the rams again. (I'm not sure that logging on twice in the same day, 12 hours apart qualifies as casual either...)

Let's look at some math, shall we?

You get 50 tickets from doing the Pink Elekks on Parade and There and Back Again quests.

You can get 40 tickets per day from the Barking quests.

Let's say, on average, you can turn in 7 kegs a day. That's a day, not every 12 hours. There's 21 tickets. A 61 ticket yield a day.

And now, let's say you started Brewfest right this instant, having not played it prior to today.

You would earn.... 782 tickets. More than enough for the ram, for logging in once a day, perhaps 15 minutes, every day, from now until Brewfest ends. I fail to see how that isn't "casual" by definition.

Now, trying to get a high number of rewards requires more than casual participation, yes, but I do not believe that is a bad thing.

Q u o t e:
On top of it all, we're ripped off two days for the brewfest with a cute gimmick of setting it up. I don't think it would have offended anyone if you'd just given it a 6hr setup at the most, and advertising an event as 14-day, when it's really only 12 was just another sign of disrespect towards the casual gamer.

This is incorrect.

The set up started on the 2nd. The actual event began on midnight of the 3rd. That initial 24 hours does not factor into the 14 days -- Brewfest lasts through the 16th of October this year.

3rd through the 16th = 14 full days of Brewfest.

You are getting what we advertised, and are not in any way being "ripped off."

Q u o t e:
So, the raiding quotient of the game gets a new raid instance on a regular basis with almost every major patch. There are tons of top-shelf items added all the time, and a vast amount of attention paid to keeping these people happy. Non-raiders have seen one instance patched into the game since launch outside of a full expansion pack, and that's Dire Maul. We've had one questline, the very awesome and difficult while being fairly rewarding for non-raid content Dungeon Set upgrade questline. Things like this appeal to the casual gamer. We don't need half-baked brewfests that were nothing more than a shiny diversion to give developers a chance to say "see! we make casual content too, don't say I never gave you nothin you ungrateful brats!" much like giving a dollar to a homeless man shows that you're a charitable person. It shows a significant lack of care about the non-raiding community to have events like this presented in such a disrespectful manner.

First: Maraudon was also patched in.

Now, to the meat. We have added additional casual-type content, such as the daily quests, aside from the holidays -- and we have more to come. In addition, my team -- that is, the team of developers with which I work -- is focused almost entirely on holidays and like content. I highly doubt my team would exist if such content was little more than a bone to throw, an afterthought.

Q u o t e:
The Dark Iron Attacks were doomed from the start. Someone on the dev team at one point said that they'd learned from their AQ gate mistakes of clumping people in a small area for an event, but clearly that advice was solidly ignored for this. Instead of dwarves attacking multiple spots, clearly coralling everyone into a single pen wasn't going to work. Ever. If not for the large amounts of people, for the large amounts of people who just want to ruin everyone's fun by AOE'ing spells, and /wave macros and anything else they can do to be disruptive. Further, the idea that the rest of the quests were alternately working or not working seemed a bit disrespectful as well.

I admit there were a few miscalculations with the Dark Iron attacks, but regarding the issues -- we were diligent in not only fixing them as they arose but also communicating with the community regarding the changes. Fixes are not instant. Some things take time to rectify. Some issues do not show up until in a live environment. We did everything in our power to fix the issues as fast as was feasible.

Q u o t e:
Nobody's saying we want free epics when we log in. We just want more than busted world events with nearly unobtainable rewards. I'm sure lots of people (especially raiders) will claim that it's just supposed to be stupid fun, but when a good reward for casual players is involved at the end of it all, and it also happens to be tied to the ability to participate on a daily basis... and most of that daily basis is removed from the start... the fun gets sucked out of it very quickly. It's made me feel for the most part, that yet again it's proven that if you don't raid in this game, you barely matter. And that's kinda sad.

The daily participation (reward wise) was not removed so much as shifted; the ticket yields are higher now without the Dark Iron attacks. You are still more than able to get the ram if you began right this second and did nothing but log in for fifteen to twenty minutes each day.

My team has done little but eat, sleep, and breathe (but not drink) Brewfest not only this past week, but ample time prior to its launch. I would hardly consider that believing you barely matter; quite the contrary, in fact.

Kisirani

#15 - Oct. 6, 2007, 2:30 a.m.

Q u o t e:
Um, can I geta blue explanation about why the featured mount was alliance? I saw your answer to the topic of this thread, and I would also like a logical answer to why the ram was the mount given at brewfest.

Because it is a Dwarven holiday, and Dwarves? They ride rams.

We're not unaware of the community's reaction to this, and you never know what next year might bring.

Kisirani

#24 - Oct. 6, 2007, 2:37 a.m.

Q u o t e:
Don't let the whiners on the forums get to you Kisirani. My ffriends and I are having a blast with brewfest. Rock on!

Oh, I assure you they're not; I simply wanted to stop some misconceptions before they became rampant. ;)

Kisirani

#35 - Oct. 6, 2007, 2:52 a.m.

Ascentorc, we prefer to mix up the sort of rewards we give. Not every event will necessarily give you "phat loot," as it were. Not every event will appeal to everyone. By offering a variety of rewards and experiences, we cater to the largest group in the end. Obviously a great number of people are interested in the ram, so we weren't too far off the mark. ;)

Dark Iron attacks did occur on the PTR, in fact, but yes, relatively few players.

I hardly consider it "goofing around." You seem to be a fellow more interested in killing bosses and getting loot, considering your particular concerns, and for that reason, the additions to Hallow's End this year are certainly more up your alley. Others enjoy a break from that, and Brewfest provides it.

What pleases you may not please another. :)

Kisirani

#52 - Oct. 6, 2007, 3:08 a.m.

Q u o t e:
I want the ram, AND the brewfest outfits, AND the goggles, AND the keg. Unfortunately due to massive quest bugs and a testing failure, this is simply not possible anymore.

So now us players have to choose. Do we go for the mount at the expense of everything else? Or do we go for the full outfit and/or keg, yet forget the mount?

Okay.

Ram: 600
Brewfest Outfit: 350 (Regalia/Dress + Boots/Slippers + Hat)
Goggles: 100
Keg: 50

1100.

If you averaged 100 tickets a day, you could do this as of this moment without having played Brewfest this week. And it is certainly possible to do that. It isn't easy, but it is possible. It isn't casual to do that, no, but again, I don't consider being unable to obtain absolutely everything in one year while doing it very casually a bad thing.

If you want absolutely everything the NPC has to offer, including all the hats and both outfits? No, you probably couldn't get that. But there's always next year.

Kisirani

#79 - Oct. 6, 2007, 3:57 a.m.

Q u o t e:
This conflicts with your earlier math:So, even doing the barking quest twice a day will only yield an average of 82 tickets a day, not 100. You get 40 from barking, and I figure you can probably get 10 kegs (30 tickets) doing it just the right way (almost got 10 kegs earlier), so doing the keg run twice a day would then yield exactly 100 tickets. But that's at near best possible keg runs. At ~82 tickets a day, he'd have roughly 902 tickets at the end. 600 for the ram leaves 302, not even enough to buy a full outfit, let alone the keg or goggles.

Anyway,I don't see how people have trouble with this one. I've finished the quest 6 times across 2 characters and never failed =P
I even average ~25 seconds to spare.

None of my math is contradictory. One is averaging 7 keg turn-ins a day, the other 20 (10 per run, twice a day). One was for the casual crowd; what I quoted the second time was a far more challenging estimate, certainly, but the argument was that it wasn't possible to get all that, and I daresay it certainly is. It simply isn't easy.

Kisirani

#97 - Oct. 6, 2007, 4:34 a.m.

Badtz, the timer is on your character, not the server. As for the estimate in my original post, it was based on 7 keg turn-ins a day, not every 12 hours, thus not causing a problem for those who work in any regard. Simply log on, do the barking, do a keg run, and log off each day. ;) As to timing it? It depends entirely on your personal schedule.

Kisirani

#112 - Oct. 6, 2007, 5:02 a.m.

They only stack to 200.

Have you checked your bag for another stack?

Kisirani

#164 - Oct. 6, 2007, 8:52 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Kirisani you say that with 15 minutes a day in one sitting you can get 40+30+30 tickets, but the two keg runs need to be 12 hours apart. I can't log in every 12 hours without making a keg run before work or something ridiculous. I don't know about the rest of you who've practiced on ptr or something but I average ~5 kegs, and cannot make 2 a day-- that's 55 tickets I think? Even if I do this daily, which I don't, it's not looking too good for getting all the items.

Quit acting so defensive, be more sympathetic and try to understand why he is mad rather than find flaws in his argument.

I am not being defensive -- however, I am pointing out flaws in the given arguments, yes, as to let them slide would only further misconceptions.

In the initial post, I gave an average of 7 kegs a day, not 20. That is the 15 minutes a day estimate, and it was solely about getting the ram. However, if you did get 55 tickets a day, had you started today, that would put you at 660 tickets, allowing you to get the ram -- even if you started tomorrow at that rate, you would be able to achieve it.

In a later post, I gave the 20 kegs a day, which was for a more "hardcore" mentality towards the event in getting most of the items.

I'm happy to discuss things with you, but I ask first that you be certain you're quoting the correct thing in context. :)

Kisirani

#221 - Oct. 6, 2007, 5:52 p.m.

I should mention quickly, for those stating I "missed the point" of the original poster and I'm out of touch -- I am fully aware of the raider vs. casual content debate that has been going on since the game first launched.

However.

I am on these forums to clear up any confusion and answer questions regarding the work of my team. What you're seeking me to answer is outside my jurisdiction, and I am not going to delve into the age-old argument here.