Can hunters get an ammo hotfix?

#0 - Dec. 10, 2009, 1:16 a.m.

I would have posted this in another thread, but it'll either get lost behind 30+ pages of posts, or in the hunter forums' black hole, and I wanted it seen.

The engineering ammo needs to be craftable by any engineer, regardless of specialization.

Q u o t e:
Hunters don't need to make their own ammo any more than weaponsmiths need to make their own maces. We're not expecting hunter Engineers to respec. ... It's tied to a recipe from Icecrown. To some extent it's supposed to be restrictive. You have lower dps alternatives, and in my experience progression-focused hunters make a call about when it's time to use the cheaper stuff (farming, learning attempts) and when it's time to break out the big guns. You aren't entitled to the highest dps ammo in the game any more than you are entitled to the highest dps gun or bow in the game, if that makes sense.

-Ghostcrawler

Q u o t e:
That is why I act a little baffled that there is such a sense of entitlement to this new ammo. If you can get some, awesome. Your dps will go up a little. If not, well maybe you can get a weapon. That's probably a bigger jump anyway. Eventually the ammo will be more readily available and hunter dps will go up at about the same time everyone else's is going up from boss loot, badge gear and crafted items.

-Ghostcrawler

The problem isn't that we feel entitled (though to some extent we do), nor is it that it may be hard to get, nor that it has to be crafted.

The problem is that splitting the ammo to individual ammo spec will impact loot decisions.

I'm a goblin engineer and I'm a raider, so I'm looking for the highest possible dps. I'm going to grab the bullet recipe as fast as I can. Say Zod's Repeating Longbow drops, which should be a 43 dps increase over my Diplomat gun. Here's what I will ask myself:

Is the bow an upgrade over my gun? Yes.
Can I afford to switch specs or AH the ammo? Yes.
Is it an upgrade? Deffinitely yes.

Or:

Is the bow an upgrade over my gun? Yes.
Can I afford to switch specs or AH the ammo? No.
Is it an upgrade without the ammo? Yes, but not that big.

That's comparing a 245 ilevel weapon with a 264. If you compare a 258 with a 264:

Is the bow an upgrade over my gun? Yes.
Can I afford to switch specs or AH the ammo? No.
Is it an upgrade without the ammo? Deffinitely No!

Suddenly economics has become part of the calculation of whether loot is an upgrade.

It's like telling JCers they can't use Red Dragon's Eye gems unless they're specced for Red-only, or telling Enchanters that they can't use Ring enchants because they specced for Wrist enchants... It's just not fair or FUN for Engineers.

Ghostcrawler

#7 - Dec. 11, 2009, 4:58 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Is the bow an upgrade over my gun? Yes.
Can I afford to switch specs or AH the ammo? No.
Is it an upgrade without the ammo? Deffinitely No!

If you can't afford to AH the ammo, you probably can't afford to get the best gems and enchants for you new gear which would probably be a bigger dps increase. That is going to affect the economic decision of looting more than the ammo I suspect. I don't think the ammo will be outrageously high on the AH given the mats. It may be high for the next week or so while it's scarce, but as I've said, we don't really want every hunter in the game to be able to get ammo which is tied to a rep grind and rare drop on day one.

You may not be able to afford to constantly switch Engineering specs, but we're not trying to make that a very attractive option in the first place.

Ghostcrawler

#90 - Dec. 11, 2009, 9:57 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Are Hunters being balanced (in terms of PvE raid DPS) around having this high-quality ammo, or not? Are we expected to be competitive with Rogues, Warlocks, and Mages using ordinary ammo?

Hunters with older gear are being balanced against mages, rogues and warlocks with older gear. Fully geared hunters are balanced against fully geared mages, rogues and warlocks. Ammo is part of your gear, much like your weapon. The Icecrown weapons are not readily available to every hunter in the game. Neither is the Ashen Verdict ammo. However, more of the ammo and other craftable items will trickle down through the economy over time.

Ghostcrawler

#92 - Dec. 11, 2009, 10:08 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Apples and oranges, GC. Ammo represent a constant cost for the raiding hunter where as gems and enchants are a one time cost for that gear/spec. Right now, on my server, the ammo is selling for 50g a stack - that might change, but a constant 50g/stack is reminiscent of TBC ammo prices, which is what the ammo changes were designed to avoid.

I don't think they are apples and oranges. If you buy a very large amount of ammo, it will last for a long time. It's totally under your control how much you buy, assuming there is enough product available, and there almost certainly will be over time if the demand is there. When you get a new item, you have a big investment to make to finish that item. When you run out of ammo, you have a big investment to make to restock.

Some of you are still arguing about the cost of ammo or the fact that it's a consumable or tied to a trade skill, but all of that has been true for some time. The Engineering specialization didn't affect any of that to a large degree. It may affect cost or availability for a short time, but that is true of most new and valuable resources. What is Primordial Saronite selling for on your server? Do you think it will still be at that price in a week? In a month?

The materials to make the ammo are not hard to get. The recipe itself is quite hard to get. Therefore it will probably take awhile before the ammo is widely available at a low cost. That's what we want. After the ammo is widely available it would basically take a unified cabal of Engineers to keep the prices inflated. Almost always in those situations someone blinks because the loss of selling things for cheaper is a lot better outcome than not selling anything at all.

Ghostcrawler

#93 - Dec. 11, 2009, 10:12 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Relying on a server's economy for maximizing dps has always been a finicky matter with me.

You will deal with this constantly in the game unless you make all of your potions, gems, glyphs and enchants yourself. The game is structured so that you generally need to interact with other players. To some extent gems and enchants are just as consumable as ammo and potions unless you're in a situation where you never plan to upgrade your gear.