I hope Blizzard gets PvE/P right in Cataclysm

#0 - Dec. 3, 2009, 1:51 a.m.

With all the wishy washy comments over this entire expansion I'm really starting to worry how the crossover will be from Wrath to Cataclysm. I respect and like Ghostcrawler, I'm sure he wants the best for the game and probably works his butt off to achieve that. But... My experience this expansion (and many others I've spoke too) has been very disappointing with how the game has evolved. Game balance seems out of reach at this point in both PvE and PvP.

This expansion it feels like Blizzard really went WAY overboard with damaging / healing stats and turned the game into a huge cluster-bleep. And in this expansion a new AddOn has become the new obsession and in the long run will only hurt the game: Gearscore. Sure Blizzard made it easier for more casual players to obtain gear but with the obnoxious gearscore requirements to run even the most entry level raids it has went against Blizzards intentions to improve overall gaming experience for every user.

Following this damage forum since Ghostcrawler introduced it, I've seen the overall attitudes on the forums go from bearable to rock bottom unbearable (I'm sure your ban finger is very soar). Also the damage and healing have scaled far more significantly than they did from the 1.0 to 2.0 end game transition. Blizzards design implementations really missed the target in WoLTK, it has been nothing but a QQFeast since Beta. And the worst part is the extreme roller-coaster ride everyone takes with buffs and nerfs.

Arena/PvP have really been a hot topic this expansion, and it's no secret that Blizzard messed up with the damage:stamina ratio (you guys admitted it as well). I understand bad players will complain when getting rocked by skilled players (we all want to win) but there are some cases that even Blizzard can't deny imbalance. It seems the key to success in the PvP game is to have the ability to deal tons of burst in a short window (or chain CC) vs a steady stream of damage. Same goes for healing, since Tanks can get 2 or 3 shotted in PvE it allows healers to top off people in PvP in a global or two.

With Cataclysm talks from Blizzard, there seems to be some really interesting changes and some that don't look so good. Ghostcrawler, I know you've been there since 08 (and been working your butt off), so please step up to the plate and go to bat for use by making a better player experience in Cataclysm. Sure MMOPRGs big focus is on gear but as you see in this expansion the gear focus has turned into everything but good. I really hope you guys learn from all your mistakes this expansion, because at this point every aspect of the game has not improved over previous versions (1.0, 2.0), Easy does NOT equal good.

Thank you for your time!

Ghostcrawler

#17 - Dec. 3, 2009, 5:08 p.m.

Health pools will be much larger in Cataclysm and healing will be lower. That should help address some of the overly binary feel of PvP and PvE encounters.

You'll still be able to kill people as well as be able to heal them. The pace will just be a little slower and both healing and killing should require more than 1-2 buttons.

Ghostcrawler

#29 - Dec. 3, 2009, 5:17 p.m.

Q u o t e:
There are a lot of problems with Wrath---Gear Scaling, burst, weak evolution of the BG system.. whatever else you can think of-- But I really wouldn't say class balance is one of them.

You know, I think that's probably a pretty fair assessment, assuming you define "burst" as both damage and healing.

The gear scaling is "easy" to fix, meaning we know what to do and it just requires a lot of work. We are prepared for players to be sad when their ratings convert less favorably, but most would agree it's good for the game in the long run.

I already addressed the burst issue above. If the bathtub is bigger, then the rate of health pouring in and going down the drain don't affect the volume as severely.

There is going to be a big focus on BGs for Cataclysm, including the ability to get the best PvP gear from rated BGs. (All of this was announced at Blizzcon -- I'm not saying anything new here.)

I also don't want to give the impression class balance is perfect. It's not. We have some success stories and some specs that we didn't get to where we intended. But we had an ambitious design from the beginning, and the way we work means there is always a much larger list of stuff we want to get done than we can actually fit into a given expansion or patch. We think the trend is good, and a lot of the changes we made for Lich King are going to endure through Cataclysm, which means we'll be able to focus more on the problems we have now rather than resetting everything.

Ghostcrawler

#39 - Dec. 3, 2009, 5:24 p.m.

Q u o t e:
At least he admits that Wrath has been less than expected,not what I would like to say but then life's a compromise.

You're drawing the wrong conclusion here, in my opinion. We think Wrath was an enormous success, and I'm pretty confident that most of our players agree. (Individuals among you may not, and that's cool. I don't think this thread is served well by turning the rest of it into a poll.)

The real point is that we are our own worst critics. I assure you for every problem you think the game has, our list is three times as long. We take a long time to make our games, and we don't ship them until they are ready, but that doesn't mean we think every thing in the box is flawless and could not benefit from continual improvement. Fortunately, MMO design really gives you that opportunity to keep iterating and hopefully improving.

Ghostcrawler

#59 - Dec. 3, 2009, 5:41 p.m.

Q u o t e:
That's wonderful news for the PvP community and all, but if healing will be lower, will PvE bosses be doing damage that is adjusted to fit this scenario, or will our tanks still have to worry about being 2-shot because our healers couldn't keep up?

You missed the part where I said health pools will be higher. Imagine a boss that takes say 3-4 hits to kill a tank, but it also takes a healer 3-4 heals to top her back off. Now efficiency of a healing spell can be as much of a consideration as direct throughput, since the tank is unlikely to die in your next GCD. Now coordination among healers can be a bigger deal since efficiency will matter. Now maximum health on the tank classes will matter less because the question of how long you can survive without a heal landing is largely academic. Now avoidance on a tank can matter a little more because saving healer mana becomes as important as being table to take the next hit.

As an aside, healers will actually need enough healing tools and enough distinction among them so that they are really choosing the big, expensive heal vs. the small, cheap heal vs. the fast, expensive heal, to name just a few examples.

Ghostcrawler

#155 - Dec. 3, 2009, 11:37 p.m.

Q u o t e:
In WotLK, plate classes -- the damage these classes can drop and their inherent survivablity -- really came into the forfront. Also, now Prot specs are doing serious damage while retaining great survivablity. How is the dev team balancing out the plate classes with huge health pool and still make them killable?

The way we are doing the itemization for Cataclysm is to spend the same budget on Stamina for cloth, mail and leather-wearers that plate currently has. The plate wearers will still have more health, but it will be much, much closer. Plate itself mitigates damage certainly, but not from casters.

EDIT: Iapetes explains it in more detail above in post 120.

Ghostcrawler

#156 - Dec. 3, 2009, 11:39 p.m.

Q u o t e:
So what power will be left in being a healer? You can't dps well. You can't heal well..

It's unclear why you responded to my quote below with your quote.

Q u o t e:
You'll still be able to kill people as well as be able to heal them.