Oculus changes

As is evidenced in this thread, players have strong opinions on Oculus in contrast to the majority of the other Wrath of the Lich King dungeons. With the implementation of the new Dungeon system and Random Dungeon option in patch 3.3, many players were asking for the ability to black list at least one dungeon from the selection pool. If a large number of players want to black list Oculus because they don't find it enjoyable -- and it can often times be a pick-up group killer -- we view that as a problem. We do not, however, see a viable solution in giving players the ability to simply remove any dungeon they want from the Random Dungeon rotation. That takes away from the idea of randomness. In addition, we feel the benefits afforded players when running random Heroic dungeons (extra emblems, the chance to run a specific Heroic instance more than once a day, etc.) are too good to let them narrow down the list as they see fit.

As a compromise, we've made the standard fights in Oculus a bit easier, and increased the benefits of item-based vehicle scaling to make the drake combat less cumbersome. We hope these changes deter players from deserting a random dungeon when it happens to be Oculus.

Q u o t e:


Blizzard seems to incorrectly think that the reason people don't run this instance is because it's hard. This isn't the case. Most of the people who refuse to run this instance do so because they just don't find vehicle fights fun. Reducing the difficulty isn't going to change that

I don't think that we misunderstand that many people simply don't like the instance. That doesn't change the fact that players who do not refuse outright to run this instance still struggle with it, whether or not they're on drakes. In general, the current difficulty level of the instance is closer to Trial of the Champion than it is to the other Wrath of the Lich King dungeons, which isn't a good thing given the quality of loot which drops there versus Trial of the Champion.

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You should have just enforced 1 random dungeon a day. If you get Oculus as your first random heroic, completing it would reward emblems of frost, completing any other heroic won't. If you fail, you won't get emblems of frost on that day until you make a group that completes Oculus.

I don't think we'd want to go that far, but it is worth noting that the Random Dungeon option will not take into account dungeons players have deserted or completed when repeatedly selecting this option. Those in this thread claiming they will still refuse to run the dungeon and desert it whenever it is selected at random run the risk of killing a lot of time with the Deserter debuff should Oculus be randomly selected often, as it has just as much chance of being randomly chosen as any other dungeon. If, say, it is randomly selected four times in a row, that is a total 1 hour of time wasted with a Deserter debuff in addition to the time it takes to put together each group. Whether or not one equally enjoys all Wrath of the Lich King dungeons, that's a weird price to pay for what will be a relatively easy and quick dungeon run in patch 3.3.

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I think this is a pretty good description of the situation. I don't recall anyone I've played with ever complaining that Oculus is hard, just not enough fun for the time invested. Clearing out drakes from dragon-back is a chore, for me anyway, and can easily turn into a wipe if someone wanders away from the group. Not to mention the whole "Is something hitting me? I think something's hitting me. Crap I'm not facing the right way.... dammit STILL not the right way...."

Right, it's not hard by any means... it's just that people can die if they're not paying attention to their surroundings in a 360 degree manner, wander too far from the group due to carelessness, or land before clearing enough drakes from around a platform due to impatience or carelessness. That has no bearing on difficulty, it's just a chore.

This same argument could be made for any mechanic in the game which can result in the death of a character or wipe of a party/raid due to carelessness or impatience by the way.

"It's always such a chore to move out of Gormok's fire when I'm busy healing. It's just not fun."

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I thought decisions that were based on the forum community weren't right because the forum community makes up a very small percentage of actual WoW players?

Atleast this is what a Blue not too long ago.

We also have test realms where we can verify data through... testing.

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Except moving out of fire is something I've been doing for years. Riding a dragon with abilities unique to the instance, on the other hand, is like being handed a new game pasted over WoW. I'll skip that rather than bother to move down the learning curve (or, worse, constantly pug with people still early in THEIR learning curves).

It may be unique, but it's not incredibly complex, nor is it an overwhelming new aspect of World of Warcraft game play. Whether or not you enjoy it or understand it, I don't think asking players to figure out the abilities of their drakes, stay with their group, and clear the skies is asking too much. It's not too difficult or time consuming. This is especially true given the changes to Oculus being made in patch 3.3.

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You either misread what I said or you're avoiding my point. I didn't say that people didn't like Oculus, I said that most people don't like vehicle fights. You guys really need to consider this possibility and stop dancing around it by thinking that making the basses easier will change anything.

When I said that we recognize that many people do not like Oculus, that was implying that it's largely due to the drake fights in the instance. That's the major defining factor of the instance which separates it from other Wrath of the Lich King dungeons.

I'd prefer not to take your word for it though that most people don't like vehicle fights altogether. Not only is that information not available to you, you can't get most people to agree on anything on these forums (and the number of players who frequent the forums is quite small and not representative of the entire player base as someone pointed out before). No, this doesn't change the fact that we know a good percentage of players do not like vehicle fights at all.

It seems as though you're asking for us to remove the dungeon from the Random Dungeon option, remove it from the game altogether, or completely redesign it. None of these options are likely. What we have done, however, is made aspects of the dungeon easier so the awkward wipes or random deaths players experience in the instance -- whether while on drakes, fighting trash, or encountering bosses -- are reduced. If you'd still prefer to skip it at all costs, that's up to you and we'll be sure to make note of that data as we're currently doing on the test realms.

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Again, you have tunnel vision. You're only considering the possibility that people don't like Oculus and vehicle fights because of their difficulty. Repeat after me because I'm starting to worry that your fingers won't let you type out the words... some people just don't like vehicle fights.

Dude... seriously...

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Honestly that's really not what I"m looking for you to do. It seems that once you guys come up with a new idea you run with it and sometimes over do it a little. What I'd like for you to do is consider the fact that many people don't like vehicle fights and not force us into them again in Cataclysm.

Thanks. Considered.

Q u o t e:
Making the instance easier does not make people like the instance. You may already know this, but it's definitely not clear from the design changes we're seeing.

If you guys actually cared about how many people hated the instance, you'd add an alternative way to beat the instance and not beat around the bush by making it easier (not to mention the change was probably a 5 minute job, again showing us how much you care).

You don't know the details behind the changes, nor the extent to which things in Oculus have been changed. It didn't take five minutes. As I said before, providing an "alternative way to beat the instance" would effectively mean redesigning it completely. It's layout doesn't allow for many changes without drastically altering its foundation. We'd rather make Icecrown Citadel awesome. So far, the three wings of the new 5-player dungeon in Icecrown Citadel are looking amazing. We hope you'll appreciate that over the possibility of seeing alternative methods of beating Oculus, and can accept the changes to Oculus as an ease of the burden of running this dungeon for some.

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The reason people don't like vehicle fights is because it makes spec and gearing choices totally irrelevant. WoW was built on character customization and progression. Vehicles are lame and boring because vehicles don't account for any sort of gear choices or spec choices.

It's not about it being hard or easy, it's about it being lame. Why exactly does the development team think vehicles are or were a good idea? It's fun playing the character I customized - it's not fun using a prefab vehicle to shoot fireballs are dragons.

Don't use vehicles ever again.

They do account for gear quality, so you're slightly incorrect there. As far as claiming them to be a break from playing your character using its standard abilities, you're right. We feel that 80 levels of game play -- with a handful of vehicle quests from 68-80, assorted vehicle-based daily quests, vehicle encounters in about half of a level 80 dungeon (Oculus), vehicle encounters in about a quarter of another level 80 dungeon (Trial of the Champion), vehicle encounters in a very small percentage of a raid dungeon (Ulduar), PvP vehicles in two out of six Battlegrounds, and PvP vehicles in our world PvP zone -- is perhaps an acceptable variation of game play.

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I'd like them to consider that many people enjoy vehicle fights and would like to see more of them in Cataclysm.

Thanks. Considered as well.

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We don't want vehicles! NO one would even use them if you couldn't get big rewards from the dungeons/PVP that requires them. NO ONE likes jousting in TOC and it's a dumb waste of time. If it wasn't for the VERY HIGH level rewards that you can get in a VERY SHORT amount of time, NO ONE would do it. Leave the vehicles out of the next expansion.

If you use absolute statements about opinion-based arguments, I'll always consider you absolutely wrong, just so we're clear.

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Forgive my steering off topic, but in the many years I've been playing I can't recall a thread like this lasting so long without completely disolving into flames and profanity. I know we've had a few in here so far but for the most part I've found the discussion very interesting and (for the General board) pretty civil.

Stickers all around!

I agree. Thanks Scuzz for doing your part. ;)

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I'm using statements based on conversations with pretty much everyone I've ever ran TOC with. I have NEVER has a single person say they like jousting and most of them say they HATE it.

Well, that's better then. Now you're using an absolute statement based on your own observation, which I can't disprove. I can, however, easily say you're wrong by claiming that not a single person in the world likes vehicle combat (in an form) in World of Warcraft. I just ask that you think about these things when joining a discussion so we don't have to downgrade all civil discourse into hyperbole whenever speaking to each other. :)

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What happens if we just keep extending our Oculus lockout? Does it still randomly queue it? lol

If you're using the Random Dungeon option, it will ignore Heroic dungeon lockouts. The one small exception is that it weighs dungeons you've already done that day a little lower. This is a slight clarification about information I provided earlier in the thread. If you do happen to get selected for Oculus multiple times within a day, the chances of being randomly selected for that dungeon again will decrease each time after you've completed it.

This, however, is also contingent upon the queues. If you just ran Pit of Saron, for example, and a lot of people are queued for that dungeon, you might be selected from the random pool to run that dungeon again rather than be forced to wait to find a group for a different dungeon.

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32 pages in this thread. Blizzard, c'mon get real. People absolutely HATE oculus and these little tweaks will not change that.

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Blizzard I beg you to listen to your paying customers and remove this horrible dungeon.

I can assure you we are listening to our paying customers. That means also listening to all those in this thread who like vehicles and Oculus, as well as the majority of the player base, those who don't come to the forums because they're enjoying the game as it is.

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I think the random heroic mechanic should weigh newer dungeons slightly higher than older ones, since we've had time to run the old ones over and over and over and over... but the new ones are new! and doing them for bonus rewards is an even better plan than just doing them for normal rewards.


Though, I guess, the new dungeons might have new fights that people haven't experienced and might lead to some group drama where groups disband...


You know what? just keep them on the same scale as other dungeons.

lol

Q u o t e:


Then give the option to take it or leave it without penalty.

Cause I can assure you there are more that dislike it than like it. If it was the other way around more people would be running it.

People don't run it and a little nerfing to the instance is not going to solve its vehicle problem.

You're welcome to choose to run any Heroic dungeon you want by queuing for it. Doing so will reward you with the standard number of emblems and loot per boss. If you want to reap the benefits of using the Random Dungeon system, however, you will have to accept any and all dungeons selected for you. That is the point of the system and why players are given extra incentive to use it.

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My most insightful post yet and it was shot down with three hurtful letters. :(


Really though, after 32 pages what more is there to discuss that hasn't been covered?

Circular speaking? I don't know...