Maximum camera distance - Legion 7.0.3 #10

#1 - Aug. 4, 2016, 6:31 p.m.

UPDATE: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748204616?page=8#post-147
Ion has replied to this post. TLDR: they are as expected killing Maxcam, but at the same time giving us a higher zoom cap halfway between the new and old cap.
-----
No way can I copy everything in the last thread without being able to quote it, so here's a link to it:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747915389?page=1
-----

This is a continuation post seeing as the first, second, third and fourth and fifth and sixth and seventh and eighth and ninth threads are now capped:

First thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747235182

Second thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747714824?page=1

Third thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002

Fourth thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747725237?page=1

Fifth Thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747735605?page=1

Sixth thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747685700?page=1

Seventh thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747616329?page=1

Eighth thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747816280?page=1

Ninth thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747915389?page=1

No, this is not a spam post. It is a continuation post. Please see this exception to the Code of Conduct concerning said exceptions:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2191101521#1

Also, this post is also continuing from the previous continuation threads started by different OPs through copy and pasting & editing when new updates are made. If you are going to quote this, keep this in mind.

Reminder: Please no name calling, harassing, threats (real life), etc. on this thread that would violate the TOS / CoC as well as on Twitter and other social medias.

Feedback to the Devs & Customer Support on Twitter:
@Celestalon
@WatcherDev
@WarcraftDevs (Recommend everyone use this one first)
@BlizzardCS
@Muffinus

Primary Issue here is that on July 19, Patch 7.0 changed several things:

The maximum camera distance has been modified from 34.99 to a 28.5 on the in-game slider. The maximum value of 50 has been cut to 28.5 in regards to the command /console cameraDistanceMax <value>.

--
Summary of the overall discussion from the beginning of the first thread until now:
-Blizzard's lack of response to these threads
-Blizzard's culpability for causing through the camera changes people who are prone to motion sickness/headaches/dizziness/ seizures to be triggered by these changes
-Blizzard's lack of logical reasoning behind the changes
-Blizzard's complete failure to properly justify these changes to the players and other items
-MaxCam add-on discussion, testing and results in terms of distance changes

As always, lets keep the discussion civil and going in front of blizzard's employee's so they know we have not stopped protesting these ridiculous changes.

1) Some relevant screen shots of the issue at hand.

http://puu.sh/q77Up/ef12eafc70.jpg
http://puu.sh/q77Bj/4b9ef58bbb.jpg
http://puu.sh/q792d/d4972abe46.jpg
http://imgur.com/a/vBQYO
http://i.imgur.com/sQVcynC.jpg

2) Links to the PTR/Beta threads:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747324616
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745014635#1

3) EU general forums discussion thread:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612331418

4) Twitter Conversations from Watcher/Celestalon

Regarding Zoom:
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/755829241011404800 (Part 1)
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/755829504510230529 (Part 2)

Regarding ActionCam:
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/758823227057594369

FoV Illustration / Issues:
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/755862845699395584

5) Thrahl's expanded and clarified FOV image:

http://imgur.com/a/vTGyn

6) MMO Champion Thread and Poll:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/5789-Legion-Max-Camera-Distance-Reduction

7) Link to Azurfel's 'fixes' for some of the settings other than camera distance:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747654593

8) Petition for revert the changes to the camera as posted by several other users:

https://www.change.org/p/mike-morhaime-keep-max-camera-distance-in-legion-and-beyond?recruiter=251290406&utm_source=petitions_share&utm_medium=copylink

9) A post by Thalei, a player who suffers from temporal lobe epilepsy who had a seizure while playing

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747714824?page=10#200
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002?page=1#8

10) YouTube Videos

Showing the new camera freaking out during Al'akir phase transition:

WARNING - Nausea/motion sickness. This video contains very rapid movement of the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J7YgiLdaSY

NOTE: This is not the player rapidly moving the camera, as the gauntlet that represents the mouse cursor is visible, which if being held to move the camera it disappears.

By Brollgarth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oycy4wYwGgg - comparing the new 28.5 distance to the old 50 distance.

11) A post by Ravenblood, giving an excellent explanation of simulator sickness and some of its causes/symptoms

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002?page=23#451
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002?page=23#452

12) A post by Azraela about concerns regarding health

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745014635?page=15#295

13) A post by Azurfel about using letterboxing to help reduce nausea

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747865005

14) Other relevant threads on max camera distance that also capped about this topic.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745574703
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745644802

15) A post by Eochaidh which gives an excellent explanation of the problems of the new camera system.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747725237?page=7#137

16) A post by Yuutsu, about another camera command being broken or removed. Underwater/drunken haze effects.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747695411

17) A post by Keyimin showing how the world is in fact not designed around the new camera zoom.

http://imgur.com/a/dcJhQ

18) Blue Posts

June 25th, 2016 by Watcher on the capped Beta thread related directly to the camera distance (nearly a month before it hit the Live servers).
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745744692?page=1#18
---

And a few words from me directly to Blizz:

I've used the max camera distance from the moment I found out about the CVAR. I found out about it in response to a direct need for increased zoom and it was a godsend. Contrary to what Watcher said I didn't simply start using it for competitive advantage and lose sight of how the game is actually played "better" at lower zoom levels. On the contrary I continued using the increased zoom because, having had a direct comparison between both options, I was 100% absolutely certain that the increase was of great benefit to me.

And on another note, not all of us play at the default toon size Watcher. Just something to consider.

-----

Relevant video: https://youtu.be/IjM3gOavkes?t=970

Watcher said the following: "I promise that we are going to do our very very best to not let any of you down"

If you're reading this Watcher, we're here to try and explain to you that you're letting us down right now. Making a mistake is forgivable. Not choosing to rectify that mistake not so much. There are a myriad of reasons why this change should have never happened. If you truly meant your promise to do your very best not to let us down, then we need to stop having to fight with you guys and get back to having FUN again.

------------------

On feedback and toxicity:

By now the entire dev team, or at least several prominent members, consider me a hater who trashes them and their product because he enjoys it. This is probably a fair assessment at this point minus the enjoyment part, but it was not always so, and does not have to continue to be the case.

The long and short of it is I have a LOT of passion for this game, just like many of the posters in this thread I'm sure. We are here because we care. If we didn't, we'd have simply canceled outright and just gone elsewhere.

And here in lies the problem. The absolute worst thing in the world to do when someone brings you sincerely held concerns about something is allow them to come to the conclusion you are ignoring them. I would personally rather be subjected to a profanity laced rant from a dev than nothing. I'm dead serious here, although I'd hope for a more reasonable response to an inquiry.

The simple fact is it doesn't matter if the dev team spends hours agonizing over our concerns behind the scenes. It's totally irrelevant from the standpoint of our perception of how things are being handled. We see NONE of this. What we see is the last post on this subject, dated Aug 6th I believe. As far as I am concerned, this issue has received no attention since that date, as I have no way to know any different.

So by now many players have come to the well-reasoned if perhaps incorrect assumption we are being ignored, and not just on this issue. This has two serious implications. First, it degrades the quality of responses and feedback. Since people don't feel like it's being read anyway, why bother to make it constructive? Second, when word finally does come, people are so angry and cynical at that point they tend to attack the messenger.

The toxicity generated is directly proportionate to the amount of passion players have for an issue. The more they care, the more angry they become when their concerns are seemingly ignored. I'm a pretty extreme case, where my level of passion has been refereed to quite accurately as an obsession.

So yes, at this point I probably am a hater even if I've gone to great lengths to keep things civil in this particular message. But let me make one thing crystal clear here. My current attitude is a direct result of the process I described in the above paragraph. Caring deeply about something and having your concerns ignored over a prolonged period of time is maddening. Eventually it's impossible for that frustration to not boil over into animosity for the people ignoring you, whether they truly are or not.

The only way this is resolved is more communication. YES, saying "we're continuing to discuss this issue" is not only helpful, it is necessary. Mr. Feasel told me this would begin to feel disingenuous if they did it too often, which is why they don't. Well, I respectfully disagree. NOT doing it makes all the other times you say "we listen, we're reading it" feel disingenuous.

TLDR: we need more engagement from the team, especially on critical issues like this to avoid extreme cynicism and a complete deterioration of the relationship players have with the devs.

Ornyx

Community Manager

#37 - Aug. 5, 2015, 3:23 a.m.

Seeing as this is 10 threads in... I'm going to set the cap a bit higher this time. Thanks for all your feedback on the topic so far, everyone!

Watcher

Game Designer

#147 - Aug. 5, 2015, 8:31 a.m.

We’ve been closely following the discussion around 7.0.3 camera changes, and especially feedback regarding specific sources of visual and physical discomfort. We recently released a client hotfix that addressed a number of mount-related camera issues, and we have another update in the works that addresses screen/FOV distortion resulting from addons that alter the viewport. Many developers on the WoW team are sensitive to various forms of motion and simulation sickness, and it’s an issue about which we care deeply. The last thing we want is for anyone who loves the game to feel unable to enjoy it due to physical discomfort.

Obviously, the cap on CVar-controlled max zoom distance has been a major focus of both community and our own internal discussions. My original post on the matter was not as clear as it could have been regarding our motivations for the change in the first place. It placed too much emphasis on “competitive advantage” in terms of a level playing field, when the core concern I was trying to convey is that “whatever the maximum allowed, that’s what competitive players will use in order to maximize performance, even at the expense of the game’s overall look and feel.” That shouldn’t be a terribly controversial statement: When you’re trying to dodge Fel Outpouring waves on Kormrok in Hellfire Citadel, the farther out you can zoom, the sooner you can see when they’re headed your way; why wouldn’t you zoom out as far as possible? (Corollary: Around what expected zoom level do we tune the speed and lethality of the waves?)

In the course of working on Legion, and trying to improve the overall look and feel of our combat, class abilities, and the ways in which players interact with the world, we took stock of all aspects of that experience, including the camera. World of Warcraft is an avatar-driven open-world RPG, placing the player in the shoes of a hero who adventures throughout Azeroth, yet with the previous max console zoom, that hero would commonly take up less screen real estate than characters in isometric games like Diablo or Heroes, or even many Starcraft 2 units. At that zoom level, details of your character get lost, and details in the world vanish. The game ultimately is designed to be experienced with the camera zoom range available in the default UI.

Now, that is not to say that we don’t at times fail in creating an overall experience that is smooth and free of frustration at those zoom levels. When a tank can’t see around a boss like Archimonde to know where incoming demons are in order to corral them, that’s obviously not ideal. There is much we can do to keep WoW’s scale from spiraling out of control, as well as UI and camera improvements to the experience of fighting huge monsters, and we’ll be paying close attention to feedback along those lines as we move into Legion.

We intended to limit the console-overridden camera zoom very early on in the Legion Beta, which would have left us with many months to iterate on gameplay and feedback that arose from the change before releasing Legion. However, due to an oversight (we capped one way of overriding it, but not another) the change did not properly go through until the very end of the development cycle. Since then, we’ve heard from many players that they’ve relied on increasing the camera zoom to counteract a number of sensitivities, ranging from motion sickness to headaches from spell effects.

Recently, a number of players have reported some relief through using a new addon that allows them to bypass any and all limits on zoom distance. That addon takes advantage of a bug that has existed for some time but gone unnoticed (passing a negative value into a function). In an upcoming hotfix, we will be fixing that bug and thus causing that addon (and others like it) to honor the standard camera limits.

However, in that same hotfix, we will also be raising the hard cap on camera zoom to a midway point between what was possible prior to 7.0, and what is possible through the in-game interface options. This increased cap will allow power users to once again be able to extend their camera distance via a console command, should they so desire. The choice of the new max was informed by reports from players regarding what zoom distance eased the discomfort they were experiencing. Ultimately, we would prefer to address the underlying issues rather than relying on increased zoom to mask those issues, but now that patch 7.0.3 is live and we cannot properly iterate on the sort of changes that would be required, reapplying the band-aid is preferable to leaving an open wound.

We look forward to hearing your feedback once these changes are live. We want to continue working to improve the readability, usability, and accessibility of our game from a visual standpoint, including camera functionality, and community feedback and discussion are invaluable when dealing with such an inherently subjective area.

Ornyx

Community Manager

#2849 - Sept. 23, 2016, 12:26 a.m.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this topic. I am going to close this thread now and ask that another be made to continue this discussion. The length of this thread is causing it to take a lot of time to load, post, etc., resulting in a poor forum experience for everyone.

See ya on the other side!