An inquiry into arcane mage dps...

#0 - Sept. 30, 2009, 4:48 p.m.

Its damage output is kind of ridiculous at the moment. It is way outperforming fire at similar gear levels. Initial TC puts it at a 400 dps difference with Arcane taking the competitive edge. In my experience there is a much larger difference than 400 dps. The disparity grows even more on fights that allow you to take advantage of Incanter's Absorption, such as twins where the constant splash damage boost your output even further.

This is not even getting into the pvp ramifications. One of the most OP comps that has cropped up lately is Arcane mage Destr loc. Two classes capable of retarded amounts of CC, as well as insane burst. There has already been images of 9-12k arcane blasts. I have just under 700 haste in my pvp gear and nearly 2400 sp. The amount of ###* that I would dish out as arcane would be unparalleled.

I am not a proponent for nerfing my own class typically but Arcane is pretty simplistic, some might even go as far to say skill less. It is really a 5 cast rotation that you don't divert from ever unless you get low on mana, or have to move. Is this where mage dps as a class is supposed to be? If that is the case then fire is definitely lacking.

I would really like to see fire get a boost so that it is more on par with where destr locs are / Arcane now is. Seems like ttw/fb which is the spec a lot of us enjoy playing is being tossed to the side in favor of a spec that requires very little gear, and very little skill to do well at and master. It just makes very little sense to me. Specing Arcane almost feels like cheating in my mind. Either way, wanted to post this for exposure.

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TLDR main point of this entire thread:

Blizz has gone on record stating numerous times that fire mage dps is where they want it to be even though it was below Rogues/Locs for the entirety of Ulduar in most cases.

Now they buff Arcane so that it is pushing out hundreds more dps than fire in almost every scenario that is thrown at it.

Main questions:

Is this the intended level of dps that you want the mage class to be at, or is this sometype of exclusive right reserved for Arcane mages?

If so than why were you so reluctant to buff fire? Why is it still a spec that is trailing behind?

Is it the fact that fire brings scorch that you justify it doing subpar dps?

Are there any plans in 3.3 to buff scorch as you previously stated you would do back before 3.2 was launched.

#274 - Oct. 1, 2009, 9:25 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Lhivera I think your interpretation of the design philosophy at work is a bit off, and it all comes down to how we define utility. I'm not entirely sure and I'd have to check back on the posts you're referencing, but I was under the impression the context of GC's posts had little implication with regard to talented raid utility. That is, things like replenishment and winter's chill. When he talks about frost and demonology being lower, it always seems to be with regard to pvp utility and survivability mechanics. Which is quite off from the idea of talented raid utility.

And if I recall correctly, there has been several quotes either from the beta or from earlier in wrath that indicated that they in fact did not try to balance around who has what buffs.

So personally, I've always taken arcane's lack of raid utility as a fundamental flaw in the spec rather than something that comes at a personal dps gain. Arcane and subtlety being the only two talent trees without talented raid utility, I've come to believe that every pure spec should have at least one form of raid utility (see: spreading around of replenishment buffs, savage combat, master poisoner all relatively new forms of pure raid utility). Furthermore, I don't think they would have kept arcane, a previously working spec, where it was all throughout Ulduar if they were in fact balancing it around being above fire. I think more likely they don't value raid utility at all in terms of dps, and saw arcane as perhaps close to fire and therefore didn't feel the need to make any immediate changes.

I'll only comment a little on the Fire vs. Arcane debate, though it is an interesting one to follow. But Luph is essentially correct here. We don't penalize classes for bringing good buffs or debuffs. Most of them do, and the ones that are perceived as lacking are usually because players assume their raid will *always have* another class who brings the buff, or another class brings the buff without such a personal dps loss, talent cost or the like.

Our concern about buffing Frost, while still something we want to do, is that you currently see all 3 specs of mages, which is cool and not something you can say of every class. It would be awesome if all 3 were equally viable in PvP and PvE, but that is a lot harder to accomplish. Since Frost is still the spec of choice for most PvP mages, if it was also very strong in PvE, then fire and arcane might start to die out. That's not a good justification for keeping Frost low, but it is a concern.

Arcane is probably lacking a little in the buff / debuff department, and at the same time, Fire probably has to pay too heavily for theirs in the form of constant Scorching. However, they are pretty close in PvE dps at the moment, which is cool. As always it is going to depend a lot on the player, gear, comp and the encounter (and whether or not the Fire mage has to Scorch... though at the same time, whenever LB can shine, Fire can pull ahead too). But they are probably close enough that you can play whichever you prefer without feeling like you are holding your friends or yourself back. If we get e.g. rogues, locks and hunters to the same point with at least 2 specs, well, the next round's on me. For players who really care about that 1% edge, you can happily proceed with with the debate on whether Fire or Arcane is *really* better and we will sit back and /popcorn.