@GC and Mages -Post here to back him up

Q u o t e:
I just don't understand how GC can look at top 50 parses and think we're fine on anything other than gimmicks.

Because we don't use wowmeteronline (or any publicly available dps contest) as our tool for balancing classes. If you want some unsolicited advice, you guys (and I'm not just talking mages) spend far too much time trying to find the definitive list of who does the highest dps and then try to use that to get your class buffed. That makes for very uninteresting forum threads. "My dps is low. Please buff."

I'm not trying to disparage wowmeteronline or simulationcraft or any of the various spreadsheets. They can be useful tools (for the player base) if used the right way. They are emphatically not a thermometer that accurately measures your dps.

Q u o t e:
You want us to support arguments with data. If simulation projections aren't acceptable, and damage reports aren't acceptable, what kind of data is acceptable? And how do you propose that players collect such data, when the very act of doing so in an underperforming spec is an inconvenience to their friends and guildmates?

You're trying to argue as if this was a legal case and if you find enough evidence then the court will decide in your favor. That's not really how we design things.

Yes, cold numbers carry more weight than antecdotal evidence. Absolutely. Where players err is like the poster I quoted above who said essentially "I can't believe Blizzard won't buff us after we proved our dps was low." Wowmeteronline isn't the kind of proof you're looking for and these forums aren't the debate club. If you have a concern, bring it up. If you have done so, then that's the end of the line. If we want more information, we'll ask for it. Don't go from there to "Will you buff us now? Will you buff us now? Why won't you buff us now?" That's not really what we had in mind with the whole "give the developers feedback" thing.

[Not tracked]

Q u o t e:
Unfortunately GC pretty much puts his fingers in his ears, it seems, when moonkin/spriests/eleshm try to talk about their low DPS. (and mages, but I think the caster hybrids are in a worse spot than mages.)

“My dps is too low” is among the least interesting kinds of discussions we can have on the forums, which is why I am constantly (and to little avail) trying to steer players away from them.

Q u o t e:
My Question Greg is: What do you want? Tell me what you want so i can give you the necessary Data. Do you want to watch me while I'm raiding, do you want to see what I see on an everyday basis? Until I know what you need to make a better decision it's hard just throwing data at you hoping that I hit the spot I need to for you to realize there is a problem.

Your data aren’t "necessary." We don’t need them to make better decisions. We aren’t relying on the community to balance the game for us. What we are asking for is feedback on class mechanics and balance. The kinds of discussions that we have found more helpful recently, pertaining to Fire mages, are how Combustion isn’t popular any longer, whether or not the spec is too RNG dependent, and how the new Living Bomb is working out.

Now, I know I’ve called your quotes out twice here, but I do respect your opinions and theorycrafting quite a bit. :)

Q u o t e:
Well that sounded like a cop-out if I've ever heard one. I don't think you replied to any of the questions at all about the mage dps. (not that you have to, but if you respond in a post, it would seem you would take the time to respond if possible to the question at hand.) I don't think anyone was suggesting that these spreadsheets were the tools that blizz balanced around, but unless you give us access to the data Blizz has, what other sources of creditable data do we have to compare with?

I’m not sure how you could read these forums and come to that conclusion. We have said we think Fire mage dps is in a good place and Arcane is a little low, which is why we are buffing it. Frost is a lot lower, but is still the mage spec of choice in PvP so we’re less concerned about also pushing raiding mages to Frost (though it is still a long-term goal to get all 3 viable). You are welcome to disagree with our goals or our conclusions, but you need to get out of the mindset that if you can just come up with the magic data set that you can get us to make the change you want.

I know you all are gamers, so it’s natural to approach the forums as a game as well. “What do I have to do to win?” I am trying to discourage that mentality.

Q u o t e:
I think this is a true statement with regards to the original question, however these tools do answer questions, just not the one your asking. What questions do they answer?
Perhaps it shows that mages are very dependent on synergies. Where as other classes arent.

Yes. Those are the kinds of questions I would ask when looking at those data. They are much more interesting questions too than “What is my dps?”

Q u o t e:
I wish more people would actually understand what you're saying, instead of taking it completely out of context.

Too many are still asking the question “What does a guy gotta do to get himself buffed around here?” When we won’t answer that question, they conclude Blizzard is dumb or Blizzard hates mages. Shrug.