pvp... what are you doing?

I'm going to address this, even though this is something we've addressed many times before.

PvP is not balanced around 1vs1. We want people to group, rely on each other, fight together. That philosophy hasn't changed. We don't balance around one particular class. We don't balance based on who is playing what class this week. We balance around an overall picture of point and counterpoint in relation to groups. (Meaning 2 or more at the least.)

We say this often, but we play a variety of classes as a company as do the developers themselves. We play the game the same as anyone else. There are no rabbits up our sleeves. We do not have nor use GM powers in the game. We work for our gear, make our mistakes, succeed, fail, try again, the same as any other player.

We understand that there are those that feel that there are ongoing imbalances. We're aware of these concerns and as always, would like to remind everyone that balance is always ongoing for the game. That means, we are always taking in your constructive feedback providing it is constructive.

Asking for one class or another to be nerfed, is not constructive. Relaying your personal experiences in a clear, well-thought-out, and concise manner is always helpful. We will never move as quickly as some may want us to. There is just too much involved to do that. We will, however, do as much as we can as quickly as we can provided that it's in the best interest of the game as a whole.

You all should know me well enough by now to know that I don't say these things lightly. I understand that many have other perceptions, but I would continue to ask that should you choose to continue this conversation, that you do so in a respectful manner. I will return the courtesy to you every minute of every day of every hour without fail, but I will not be very tolerant of those who continue to post harassing or defamatory language, nor will I support the latest trend of overstating or hyper-sensationalizing concerns. If you have a concern, state it as it is. No need to sugarcoat it, but no need to compound it either into something grander just so we take notice. We're here. We're not going anywhere, and if and when we have answers for you, we'll share them even if they aren't the answers you are going to like.

02/04/2011 8:38 AMPosted by Kud

We will never move as quickly as some may want us to.

Except in the case of feral druids, where every expansion you make sure we are not allowed to compete longer than a few weeks.

I respect what you have to say, but experience and history shows otherwise.

I am sorry people keep quoting what you said in the feral thread, but you have to understand in the current context of things, and the missing piece(read:Frost Mage Nerfs) your comments are very hard to swallow, especially now with this saying that you don't balance on 1v1... well... what is a hard counter then? I am genuinely confused.

When something is so obviously out of place as Frost Mages are, and nothing is done, what conclusion do you expect us to draw? Honestly?

Except these changes have been up on the PTR for awhile and available for everyone to test prior to them going live. Believe it or not, as quick as it may seem for those to go into the PTR, it's because it's a part of the process. This wasn't spur of the moment, it only seemed spur of the moment because you aren't there in the discussions the developers have. Even hotfixes as quick as they seem, aren't as quick as you'd think. These things take time to discuss and plan for.

I don't want this to become about each individual class, but I think people have gotten hung up on the term "hard counter" far too much. In that same statement, I also noted that we wanted them to have someone else with them to help dispel. That's in line with our idea that it's not a 1v1 game. Yes, there are classes that are stronger in a 1v1 sense. That's hard to get around without making everyone exactly the same. We're trying to avoid the idea that we're "homogenizing" the game and classes as much as we can, but there have to be some concessions made. We also believe that there is more that we can look into in regard to PvP balance, but we have to always be careful that what we do doesn't tip things too much on the PvE end and vice versa. It's like setting up one great big giant maze of dominoes. One wrong placement and things just don't work as they should.

We aren't going to do all of our balancing in one go either. How people choose to play the game can sometimes be unexpected too. An ability we expect to be used situationally, may end up becoming the bread and butter of a class thus making us reevaluate it. So, each step we take, we hope is the next better step. That said though, we look to the community to tip us off to things that need to be better. To bring up viewpoints we may not have thought of. We look to you all for your insights and experiences. From there though, it's looking at the long view of the game and how implementing changes will effect the big picture. We don't take anything we do lightly despite claims to the opposite. We are extremely passionate about what we do. We don't nerf or buff classes to harm anyone or do it because it's personal (I was killed by a druid!) We do it because we have high hopes and big plans for the ongoing health and fun of the game overall.

I don't want this to become about each individual class, but I think people have gotten hung up on the term "hard counter" far too much.

I wouldn't suppose Blizzard could share its definition of a hard counter?

My personal definition is not necessarily about damage, I expect to get beat in some encounters unless I know I have better skill or better gear.

My personal definition deals more with feelings of helplessness and despair.

First off, to Vorazbek- Thank you for the constructive post. It's appreciated and more of the type of thing we like to see.

On the other, I'm going to see what we can bring to the table to better explain our thoughts on these things.

We don't want people feeling "helpless" in a fight obviously. But that feeling of helplessness isn't there when you're with someone else, unless you're possibly outnumbered or up against classes that are more apt to take out your own. Like I said, it's not easy to balance a variety of classes with differing abilities to be equal in every situation. If someone has the upper-hand, then they have the upper-hand. They might have better gear, or better reaction times. They may be more experienced in PvP. They may have terrain they're using to their advantage. They may have a partner that isn't as astute at supporting them etc etc. There are a lot of variables to take into account unlike PvE encounters. NPCs have set abilities that even when "random" are at least expected within a certain sequence. In PvP, you are dealing with different classes in different specs with differing abilities and gear.

02/04/2011 10:06 AMPosted by Heatwave

We don't want people feeling "helpless" in a fight obviously. But that feeling of helplessness isn't there when you're with someone else, unless you're possibly outnumbered or up against classes that are more apt to take out your own. Like I said, it's not easy to balance a variety of classes with differing abilities to be equal in every situation. If someone has the upper-hand, then they have the upper-hand. They might have better gear, or better reaction times. They may be more experienced in PvP. They may have terrain their using to their advantage. They may have a partner that isn't as astute at supporting them etc etc. There are a lot of variables to take into account unlike PvE encounters. NPCs have set abilities that even when "random" are at least expected within a certain sequence. In PvP, you are dealing with different classes in different specs with differing abilities and gear.

Thank you for the response. Not to dwell on the point though, I'm still not sure if I understand what Blizzard considered a hard counter. It is fine if you want to tell me I am just not getting it--I've heard that once or twice in my life :)

I know there are 1vs1 situations where I will lose. I don't consider those hard counters.

I consider myself helpless or "hard-countered" if I have equal or better gear, adequate skill for the person I am fighting (in my opinion), same terrain, etc. and my life is dropping and there life isn't moving. I'm not afraid dying (in game)... But when I see some classes and I am alone, I just mount up and ride away (or try to die fast so I can get my 30 second rez penalty over with).

I have beaten people 1vs1, but rarely will I walk away without taking some damage.

I won't have something for you today, but we'll get something worked up with the developers and see if we can better explain these things a bit better. (In a big picture way at least.) From there, we can see where that goes. There are some changes in 4.0.6 that should help some, and change the way others play (yes I know Feral druids), so we'll see how that dynamic plays out as well in the live realms soon enough.

02/04/2011 10:52 AMPosted by Roguey

BTW, notwithstanding my criticisms of Neth's posts, I just wanted to thank her for taking the time to post. I know that there are political forces at work within Blizz just like in any corporation and chances are she has to answer to a higher authority for everything she does. This, of course, may and probably does limit what she can express as a representative of Blizz. Therefore, I ask that Neth please stay active in the community and please do not take these posts personally. We all really do love you, Neth, and we don't blame you for any of our concerns.

Always appreciated. I'm not going anywhere, nor is the rest of the team. I fully accept and appreciate those that disagree. We wouldn't have much of a conversation if we agreed all of the time. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Any possible perceived "inactivity" is only due to additional tasks and duties that we take care of on our end which includes various meetings and a lot of writing at the least. Not to mention, sometimes additional answers or insights take time.

02/04/2011 11:24 AMPosted by Epidra

so we'll see how that dynamic plays out as well in the live realms soon enough.

So the Public Test Realm and feedback forum is just a place for people to post about unicorns and idly chit chat about their favorite cup of tea, and changes will only really be looked at when they're unleashed on the live forums?

No, but it does help us find bugs and issues. We've also made changes before based on PTR feedback (unfortunately, I don't have specific examples for you right now.)

That said though, live realms often and usually have interesting additional results that may not have been seen on the PTR. It's a far larger population with more eyes than the PTR generally gets. As much as we encourage people to take part in the PTR, there are many who don't have the time or inclination to do so. For those that do take part, we genuinely appreciate it and it gives us some ground level ideas and insight into the design changes implemented. Live though is often a new beast we need to keep a close eye on.

02/04/2011 11:47 AMPosted by Smackledorf

I'm not a programmer so I don't know how hard it would be do more frequent patches in lieu of the hotfixing that currently takes place, but if they don't trust the PTR and require live testing which is kind of what that post sounded like, then I don't see why we shouldn't have more frequent patches, or even hot-fixes with a notification of changes at log-in so we know what we are testing.

Also, thank you for taking the time to post and discuss with a few of us these things Neth. I'm sure it feels like people are attacking you, or your words (I'm definitely going after the latter and not the former) but right now its either go at you, or yell at clouds like Abe Simpson. I don't expect to get a pat on the head and be told all the feral nerfs are going away or anything silly like that, but it is good to have a discussion, and posts like these should happen more often imo.

No need to yell at the clouds. We're not in them. :) Thank you to everyone who has taken part in the conversation whether you agree or disagree.