GC! You nailed it on the head! BRAVO!

#0 - June 8, 2009, 8:09 p.m.
Blizzard Post
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17615364272&sid=1&pageNo=15#288

Q u o t e:
But isn't that basically saying that Arena is all about CC and that classes without very strong CC are by definition not cut out for Arena? We don't give the warrior class much in the way of CC. What they have is mobility, snares, interrupts, some survivability tricks and MS. Faceroll or die?



I understand you were trying to be sarcastic by portraying the warrior class as having such a single-dimensioned roll in arena, but the silly thing is that you actually summed us up quite accurately.

Warriors are a very single dimensional and not quite so dynamic as a class for a “hybrid” in pvp.

Plus we are full of inadequacies:

    -Yes, we have MS (but so do hunters and rogues… heck ret paladins have that -20% to ALL stats too)

    -Yes, we have snares (but they are the weakest in the game… -70% crippling, auto-snare uncleansible unholy DK Desecrate... Hunter’s frost traps)

    -Yes, we have interrupts (but we need to change stances, dump all our rage, and it still has a huge chance to be juked by the caster or dodged / parried / blocked also latency issues don't help)

    -Yes, we have some survivability tricks (but with sword / board equipped on our offensive damage is cut by 75% and yet we are utterly helpless against magic burst damage EVEN in Def stance with a shield on). Our survivability w/o steady healing is quite dismal to be exact.

    -Yes, we have Bladestorm (but we can get gouged, deathgripped , snared in desecrate, and utterly dodged while bladestorming... i've even been deathcoiled before while BSing).
    Any smart player needs to move 3 or 4 steps away to dodge the effect. Heck rogues can stand in it with evasion up and laugh at the warrior since he knows he can’t get overpowered.

    -Yes, we have the new TFB / OP proc, but by the time we wait to time it on a healer after it procs, its already timed out. Almost all the best healing is instant cast or channeled in arena.

    -Yes, we ARE FACEROLL. What else does a warrior bring besides MS and some pitiful damage?



The problem is that for a hybrid class we do not BRING anything else in pvp.


We DO NOT have nearly as effective peels as say a DK / rogue / hunter / shaman (with their totems)…


We cannot CC or control the enemy since most of the time we are stuck in a CC or ignored and rage starved.


We have no means to actually contribute to the arena team besides an MS (no we can’t shield or friends, no we cannot heal them, no we cannot even save them from getting gibbed, our "offense is our best defense" damage is laughable at best since we can get shut down so easily and forced to turtle).


The most we can do is intervene over and disarm or fear bomb whatever is focusing down a friendly. However, disarm will almost always be dodged by the rogue and our fear breaks on the slightest damage (including or own bleeds).


Aside from that, we are a liability to an arena team as things are.


A Warrior NEEDs to be babysat with cleanses and heals to even begin putting out any pressure on the
enemy team. Without such, we are useless.


If you look at the high end arena ratings right now, the only viable 2v2 combination is warrior / druid. You don’t see warrior double dps or a warrior with any other healer because other healers cannot CC or control the target. Druids are the only options for the warriors at the moment since the druid controls the targets letting the warrior run around and “faceroll” with ms and what not.


Furthermore, druids are the only healers that can protect themselves with their CC and damage soaking forms. You see? Since warriors cannot provide this service to their partners, we naturally seek one that can do it on their own… thus a druid.


I dearly hope that Blizzard understands this.


The warrior is a class that is severely lacking in terms of sustained / burst damage on target, solo survivability, but most importantly providing CC and support to their allies.


Why would healers take a warrior over a rogue, feral, hunter, Dk, ret who can provide all of these for them?


SERIOUSLY?
#63 - June 8, 2009, 9:13 p.m.
Blizzard Post
The point I was making was that a common sentiment seems to be:

1) Only classes with multiple forms of CC on different DR (typically embodied by the Frost mage) are capable of playing intelligently and with finesse.
2) If you aren't one of these classes, you are only faceroll.
3) Faceroll classes require no skill. It's the class winning, not the player.
4) Therefore, it is offensive if faceroll classes ever win.
5) Therefore, those classes really shouldn't be represented in Arena.
6) The only way to fix this problem is for every spec and class to have equivalents of Blink, Frost Nova, Polymorph etc.

Number 6 just isn't our design, and it definitely homogenizes the classes more than we are comfortable with.

Even if you want to argue that warriors are too weak in PvP at the moment, which I don't think is a foregone conclusion, they have certainly been quite capable at points in WoW's history. If you are of the mindset that warriors should never be in that situation because they are a faceroll class, then your vision for WoW PvP is probably at odds with that of the developers.

We think classes are capable of playing with finesse even if they aren't a class with layered CC and escape mechanisms. What I mean by that is that you need to play intelligently and respond to your surroundings. You need to use your cooldowns at the right time. You need to sometimes at least think about switching targets. Even if warriors aren't there at the moment (again debatable) we don't really think warriors need a couple more types of CC and escape mechanisms to get there. With the addition of Juggernaut, they probably have all the tools they need and it's just the numbers that might need adjusting.

Some of you just need to untangle the definitions of cleave, burst, melee and faceroll and stop using them all completely interchangeably. It's imprecise and just confuses everyone else.

Now, in those situations where a class or spec just beats someone over the head with MASSIVE DAMAGE and doesn't have to be particularly clever or even sentient to win, then that is faceroll, that is a problem and not at all what we want in the PvP game. I don't think warriors are in that spot now. DKs and Retadins have been there before.
#86 - June 8, 2009, 9:38 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Not to mention that double melee just shouldn't be viable.


Why? As long as there aren't too many 3 melee teams (in 3s), this doesn't seem like a problem. I'm not arguing that players without skill should prosper. What I'm arguing against is the assumption that melee teams are by definition not skillful.

Q u o t e:
Why isn't double caster?


Maybe MS? Oops, I went there.
#132 - June 8, 2009, 10:01 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Druid DK Ret
5000g says you'll ignore this post.






Behold, GC ignoring this post.


Dude you posted this like 5 minutes ago and bumped it like three times. Give me a chance to read all this stuff. :)

Many players would argue that DK / Ret is perhaps the King of Cleave. Even if it were nerfed to the ground, I'm not sure that would mean a double caster comp is suddenly very scary. And even if you are very scared of DK / Ret, it's not like there are a ton of them in the highest brackets or in this tournament.
#262 - June 8, 2009, 11:27 p.m.
Blizzard Post
My only point with my original quote was that players watched some of the games and came out with two kinds of responses:

1) Wow, cleave teams really are too strong. Maybe Blizzard will finally take note.
2) Wow, for all the talk about cleave teams, RMP is still just as dominant in 3s as ever.

Really the the tournament just seemed to reinforce everyone's preexisting conclusions.