Discuss Itemization without insulting devs

#0 - May 20, 2009, 10:19 p.m.

The last thread on this subject got locked by GC because it was insulting the developers, even though I thought it had a lot of good points in it, and obviously others did too. So please refrain from insulting the devs in this thread, and just talk about the issues. And maybe then we'll get some change, or at least a satisfying answer, for the very real itemization problems currently in the game.

1) In general, itemization is causing a number of classes/specs to be unhappy with the stat allocations on their gear, to the point that many don't consider Ulduar gear upgrades from Naxx gear, and this is borne out in theorycraft and practice. We've seen a number of attempts to explain this (gotta give GC credit for not being entirely silent!), but they boil down to "we want gearing to be a game: we want you to have to choose between different pieces of gear and decide which one is better for you, rather than just having every piece be an obvious and perfectly-itemized upgrade". This concept is fair. The problem is...

2) The choice doesn't exist. Just off the top of my head, I can tell you that: there are a number of slots where there is no spellpower plate option without a heaping helping of MP5. There is no 2-hander in Ulduar 10 without either hit or armor pen on it, and I think that's also true for 25-man. My DK has only 2 plate dps helms to choose from in ULD10, and their stats are nearly identical amounts of crit and ARMOR PEN. There is literally NO plate dps belt in Ulduar 10. Not one. There are many slots with no attractive options for moonkin or elemental shaman. I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg here.

Where is the "choice" they want us to make? Options aren't being offered. I put it to the community: do you know the answer?

3) And the key question: How come so many pieces are itemized poorly for the specs that would use them? How come a well-itemized piece (I'm not talking perfectly itemized, just well) is so rare? I'm sure the devs understand the game, but the pieces really look like the people who designed them just put them together willy-nilly without knowing anything about what the classes in question actually wants. I know that's not what you did. I assume the devs are smart and know what they are doing. So what's the rationale for itemizing this way? What's with all the armor pen, and the mp5 on spell plate, and the weird shaman itemization, and all that stamina on every piece of plate, etc? Anybody know?

4) Drop rates: Plate spellpower gear can only be used by one spec of one class. How come it has the same chance to drop as anything else? And how come there are so many pieces of it when there aren't - oh I don't know - any plate dps belts? Shouldn't there just be more mail offset pieces that pallies can pick up as well? In my opinion, the best solution for this would be to take spellpower plate (non set) pieces, and instead of putting them ont he regular loot table, allow them to drop as an extra "bonus". For instance, a 10-man boss would always drop 2 items off its normal loot table, but then would also have a 20% chance to drop a bonus spellpower plate item. The technology for this is in the game, it was used, for instance, for Wargliaves. Problem solved. They could even do this with other limited-interest items, such as sigils/relics. That's multiple problems solved in one fell swoop!

5) Plate vs Leather: obviously I don't have the inside knowledge of the inner workings of the game the devs have. But it seems like the easiest solution to warriors wanting leather pieces is to do what you've already done with DKs: make strength so overwhelmingly appealing that they prefer plate even if it's a 3-stat piece compared to 4-stat leather. Modify deep arms and fury talents to scale with strength, or add "this talent also increases your strength by 1% per point" to a number of talents. Why wouldn't this solve the problem?

I would really like to know what's up with the itemization. I think that getting new gear is supposed to be fun. So rarely seeing any gear that is actually appealing takes a lot of the fun out of it.

Please respond without insulting the devs or "QQ"ing about them personally. Do others think this is a problem? Have you identified any good workarounds? For my part, I'm trying to get some runed orbs to make a belt, since none drop in Uld 10. Not really feasible until they become more common, though. Will have Uld cleared many times over long before I can craft an upgrade.

Ghostcrawler

#5 - May 20, 2009, 11:24 p.m.

"I don't like regen stats."
The solution here, from our POV, is not to take the regen stats off of gear, but to get you to care about them. To us, that's the same argument as saying "I can get all of the hit I need through talents, so hit on gear is a waste for me. Please remove it."

"I'd rather wear leather than dps plate."
I addressed this recently. The root of the problem is that putting AP + Strength on plate feel dumb (because except for block, it's the same thing). Putting Agi + Strength on plate feels useless. A long-term solution would probably be something like letting rogues (and similar classes) derive AP from 2xAgility and just put Agi on leather and Strength on plate.

Ghostcrawler

#198 - May 21, 2009, 8:59 p.m.

We could turn this entire forum into a discussion of specific items. While no-doubt interesting, that is just beyond the scope of what I am capable to do and still address class questions. I realize itemization and class mechanics are inextricably linked, so I’ll try to answer a few questions.

Q u o t e:
Also why do you keep referring to AP as the only alternative to a 4th stat on Plate DPS gear? Why can it not be Crit Rating. Then the rest is free for Hit/Exp/ArP. All Plate DPS would take crit.

Hit, Exp and now Armor Pen can all be capped, at which point they become “worthless” stats. At that point all plate is Strength, Stam, Crit.

Q u o t e:
I have seen you write this before as well. How is having strength and attack power on an item any different then having crit rating and agility on the same item, which there are plenty examples of.

A few players above answered this, but since people keep quoting it, the answer is that Agility and crit are not the same stat. Agility also provides crit (and a little dodge and armor). Strength and AP both provide AP (and a little block).

Q u o t e:
and pets get no benefit from crit, ArP, or haste.

Pets don’t benefit from a lot of stats, but we view that more as a problem with how pets scale with your gear and not with the gear itself.

Q u o t e:
Most shadow priest gear is loaded with haste, now to most classes this would be a good thing, but to shadow priests who can only use one spell (mind flay) it's horrible. The biggest problem is that our teir 8 is loaded with it.

We have allowed the “good stats” and “bad stats” to get too far apart. The answer, as you point out, is not to only design gear with very narrow uses because it is only attractive to one spec (but then exceedingly attractive to that spec). We can’t be in a situation where armor pen is junk for Unholy DKs (because they do so much spell damage) because then we are making Unholy DK tier sets. From an item design point of view, yuck. We just need to get the stats closer together on a class-side, not an item-side.

Q u o t e:
Ele sham currently gain NOTHING from Mp/5 or spirit itemization. We do not have mana problems nor do we gain anything offensive from either of these stats. Hopefully this can be addressed.

Agreed. As you point out, that is why we made sure your tier sets didn’t have them. We can’t remove the regen stats from everything else for obvious reasons. We can make the regen stats useful to you, but then we need to put them back on your tiered sets as well as nerfing your damage across the board to make up for the fact that some kind of new regen to dps conversion scaling will make you better. The conversion mechanics do the job, but they’re a little muddy and complicated and I’m not sure we’d call them a raging success long-term.

Q u o t e:

I don't understand why a high stamina, expertise, hit, strength weapon is so unreasonable. DPS can put all of these stats to use, too.

Because then you expect to have several of them every tier and the hit-capped plate dps classes are sad so we end up having to drop both. Bosses have bigger loot tables, so nobody is happy.

Q u o t e:
There is one other reason for the poor itemisation that a lot of people overlook.
Part of it is deliberate , so when the next instance is released , they can show off new loot that has better stat allocation than the previous instance without making the actual ilevels too much higher.

Yep.

Q u o t e:
This is my personal biggest problem with Ulduar gear, you boasted that this raid has over 800 items and we were all very exicited. Well now from seeing the gear for ourselves either through drops or external sites wowhead, mmochampion, EJ etc that most of it just going to be sharded.

I suspect you are putting too much emphasis on “best in slot” rhetoric if that is your conclusion. Make sure you understand why those estimates and calculations rank things the way they do. I would not shard a piece just because I read in a forum somewhere that it isn’t BiS. I particularly would not over-value set bonuses over stats.

Q u o t e:

Making leather worse doesn't solve the underlying reason that plate wearers are looking at it.

Of course it does. If plate was AP + Stam and leather was AP + Stam, you would wear plate. We would just have to make sure rogues didn’t take a dps loss if we changed the way leather worked.

Ghostcrawler

#199 - May 21, 2009, 8:59 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Please don't act as though it's us making a choice to whine about the gear you've provided for us. We're simply trying to optimize our specs; to play them correctly.

I understand your point, but I also caution you not to meta-game the whole experience too much. The goal is not “Whatever Mimiron drops, I put on,” nor should it be “Whatever Mimiron drops, I shard unless it is loot that some spreadsheet says is my best piece.” Gear is a complex puzzle. If you put on one piece, you might want to change another piece. That piece with all the Int might get you hit capped, so you change a gem or enchant. It might not be an upgrade for another player of your spec but it’s an upgrade for you. Make sure you are making decisions about gear wisely, and include in that the way you play, not what a forum post says your theoretical dps output could potentially be.

Q u o t e:

MP5, with current allocation percentages, is worthless for holy paladins.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. You are saying you’ll just use the shaman gear. Why? Because you don’t care about the mana regen. Why? Because your mana regen is so good based on things like Illumination that mana regen stats are not attractive. That doesn’t mean we stop putting regen stats on plate. That means we nerf Illumination. An even better solution would be to get rid of MP5 and make Illumination return mana based on your spirit. Now not only do you want a regen stat, but you want the same stat that other healers want.

Q u o t e:
Honestly, I'm bewildered at why this is a problem? Did you all just start playing WoW? Did you all just start raiding?

Anyone who actually worked their way through T4, then T5, then into T6 in TBC wouldn't be the least bit surprised at current item progression, because it's no different.

Do you know how many Rogues / Hunters in T5/T6 gear were still busy running Gruuls Lair to get the Dragonspine that never dropped / they lost the bid/roll on? Do you know how many Hunters in SSC/TK were still running Kara in hopes of Legacy, or the bow off Prince? There were Feral Druid Tanks still running SSC in hopes of getting the trash staff to drop for them, even if they were already into T6.

Blizzard already stated they don't want all Tier 8 items to be Tier 7 items + 2% more for each stat. That's just plain boring. What they want is for you to decide on whether trading in Crit for Armor Pen is worth it to you. Is giving up Spellpower for more Haste and Crit the right way to go for your spec/roll?

By and large all pieces are upgrades in one way or another.

Plate DPS pieces have more ST on them then Tier 7 pieces
Caster/Healing pieces have more Spellpower.

Its the secondary stats like Hit, Crit, ArP, Expertise, Haste and Mp5 that change.

If you walk into T9 with many pieces from T7, that is 'working as intended', because I bet most of those T7 pieces were 226 iLV items off Kelthuzad, Malygos or Sarth Hard Modes.

Tier 9 (assuming it will be the final tier for WoTLK) is where the REAL endgame begins, and where terms like Best in Slot actually apply. I seriously doubt anyone with penetration into Tier 9 will be rocking their cloak off Kelthuzad by choice.

T8, just like T5, is a bridge in gear progression. Outside of Tier and certain trinkets, T5 was very much a "sidegrade" for many classes/specs, and Tier 8 is no different.

Listen to this troll.

Q u o t e:

I DONT NEED STAM TO PEW PEW....

AND WHEN I DIE ON HODIR, IT’S THE HEALERS’ FAULT.

Q u o t e:
For casters, spellpower is usually the most powerful stat, but the itemization value of spellpower is very different from AP. You get 19 spellpower for the same itemization value as 16 haste. For physical dps you get 32 AP for the same itemization value as 16 haste.

Also remember that the melee and hunters can improve their AP through AP or through their other stats. Casters do not have a stat that directly improves spell damage except for spell power. This is a big deal.

Q u o t e:
No offense but it sounds like you are saying, "okay so the square peg doesn't fit in the circle hole....so we instead will bring a hammer and force it to work rather than simply reaching for the circle peg."

That’s exactly what I’m saying. What some players are saying is “Just make 30 holes so everyone is happy.” Do you really want a boss to drop one of 30 possible types of item, 29 of which are of no interest to you?

In almost all of these cases, I am just explaining our logic so you know why the gear looks how it does. There are some things we plan on changing or improving in our itemization philosophy in general, but those are more long term changes, not something for Ulduar. In most cases, itemization problems are really class problems, not item problems at all.

Ghostcrawler

#362 - May 22, 2009, 5:20 p.m.

I thank those of you who have made intelligent posts. Those of you who are just QQing, I skipped over as always. :)

As I said, we can't turn this into the thread where we explore every Ulduar piece and what it means to your class specifically. That is just too broad a topic. I'll try to touch on a few things.

When I say it's a class problem and not an item problem what I mean is that we are relatively locked into how many pieces we can drop. If we drop more pieces, the chance you will get something useful is even less. Therefore we have to make sure the pieces that do drop appeal to a wide variety of specs and classes. When you don't care about a stat that someone you are sharing with very much cares about, that creates a problem that we do not want to fix by just making two different pieces. (Nor do we want to turn even more gear into tokens and badges. That gets lame.)

A great example of this are regen stats. By regen stats I mean MP5 and Spirit. Yes, you can get regen through other stats, but bear with me for a minute. Our basic design is that dps casters generally don't run the risk of running out of mana, assuming they play reasonably well and aren't in over the head. (i.e. this doesn't mean you can point out cases where you ran OOM and claim the system is broken). But we do want healers to face the risk of running OOM. Healer mana and tanks being gibbed are the two main tools we have for ending encounters (and often even PvP). We need for healers to care about MP5 and Spirit as regen stats, but for casters to largely be able not to. We do this in part by converting Spirit into dps stats, but as I said, I'm not sure that's ultimately a successful solution.

(Inhale.) We put MP5 on caster mail because Resto shamans use it. We don't put it on the Elemental tier set because Resto shamans won't use that. Many mana-users can get regen out of Int and crit, but those also improve other aspects of casting. If it benefits you too much to stack those and ignore MP5 or Spirit, you are going to end up being too effective a healer compared to other classes. The design of the Holy paladin is not that you get all your regen from crit and Int. A typical raiding Holy paladin probably gets double from Illumination what she gets from DP or Replenishment. It aint trivial. If a paladin stacks say nothing but crit, then not only is Illumination better, but you heal for more too. We run the risk that as your crit rises, you outstrip the shamans, priests and druids who are having to use MP5 and Spirit too. That's why you can't just say "We do use regen stats, but crit is our regen stat." If none of the healers care about regen stats at all, then mana regen is probably still too good.

I know this is in the damage forum, but we totally agree about block. It has not kept up as a mitigation stat.

I also agree Armor Pen is confusing. You can't look at a piece with Armor Pen vs. say AP and have a feel for whether it's an upgrade or not. If you see haste or crit, you have some idea of what that will do for you. Armor Pen may just be damage in a slightly confusing package.

Long-term we could totally see merging MP5 and Spirit into one stat (with all of the class changes that would entail) but we're not ready to pull the trigger on anything like that yet.

If you see items that just seem really out of whack, feel free to keep bringing them up (and it doesn't have to be in this thread). We'll look at things on a case by case basis. We have already made some changes where we felt they were warranted. In other cases, we will end up tweaking class mechanics.