Does ElitistJerks make everything suck?

#0 - May 4, 2009, 12:06 p.m.

First off, I think this is an appropriate forum to post this since I think the data provided by the guys over there is very often responsible for the tone of the debates that go on here. If you gotta nuke this thread, then, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do, I guess.

I'm not trying to stir up a witch-hunt or anything; virtually nothing WoW-related is worth getting bent out of shape over.

So, the question is pretty straightforward: Is Elitistjerks' forum making everything suck? I'm not a programmer or mathematically inclined beyond what a nonmath-related major would provide, so I'm going to assume that EJ's preferred simulation software is trustworthy and their pen and paper calculations are accurate. In short, I think we might be better off without EJ; here's some reasons why:

1. It fuels a kind of dismissive attitude in the player community that actually diminishes the quality of debate on these forums:

Many players incapable of understanding, or if left to their own devices, wouldn't have even had any interest in, many of the calculations provided by EJ can look at a graph, make the observation that the pink bar meant to refer to x spec is bigger than the blue bar meant to refer to y spec, and then bring their "data" to bear in these forums when discussing contentious topics. Armed with the fruits of their "research", players can then justify all manner of douchebaggery to players and devs alike since y "obviously isn't viable", "only bads would play y", etc. In short, even if one has full confidence in the accuracy of the information available on the site, its primary utility for many is as a kind of strip-mall for anecdotes. What would intuitively seem to improve the signal to noise ratio, in many cases, does just the opposite.

2. Discourages experimentation with unique play-styles/specs/glyphs:

The specs and glyphs suggested on EJ become the paradigms by which all competent players must operate; this is reinforced by guild leaders and class officers, and subsequently discourages in-game player creativity and a less mathematically-focused, more fun-focused kind of experimentation. Developers are hesitant to provide hard data about which specs perform best in Platonic heaven as it would discourage the kind of organic trial and error that makes these games fun for so many people, but this is precisely EJ's primary function. The quest for mathematically justified dps supremacy cheapens what, I think, should be everyone's first answer to the question "Why that class/glyph/spec": "I don't know, I just like it".

3. Fuels outrage in places where there would often be none:

If EJ finds there to be a 10% dps disparity between a simulation run on x spec relative to y spec, by the time that 10% gets to the masses, it's become a gaping chasm that stands as an affront to God and humanity. Very often, they become self-fulfilling prophecies: since this 10% is baptized as the end of x spec's viability at EJ and that no sensible raid leader would bring x spec to raid, the 10% grows exponentially within the larger player community, players who wouldn't ordinarily have noticed or cared about this 10% become outraged, guild leaders get wind of it, and subsequently, are hesitant to bring x spec to raids as x spec has a reputation for being nonviable, whether or not, as is often the case, raid encounters could be cleared even if everyone was doing a competent x-spec'd player's dps.

Furthermore, the motives for playing WoW and character goals (i.e. squeezing out every last possible modicum of dps mathematically possible) for the most hardcore community of WoW players that become the data on EJ are subversively transplanted into average players, this attitude towards character customization becomes the norm and what would ordinarily be discussed in terms of individual player interests are instead discussed in universal terms of class viability, and this provides justification for a sense of entitlement and victimization within a less hardcore player community in which ignorance would have, almost certainly, been bliss.

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I'm sure there will be a slew of "guns don't kill people, people kill people" kinds of responses, but seeing as how that place seems to set the stage for a lot of the "debates" that go on here, I think it's worth suggesting that it start being looked at more as a blog than a policy institute.

edit: fixed a potentially confusing spelling error

#97 - May 4, 2009, 8:21 p.m.

Theorycrafting is a fun part of the game for many players. We love the EJ guys and other communities that embrace it.

What many players would do well to remember though is that the mission of EJ (and others) is to determine the best possible optimization. That can be a fun goal both in theory and in practice. But that does not mean that every player should adopt what they conclude yields the most damage / healing / survival / efficiency.

As an example, I have seen players do things like choose talent tree A because talent tree B "sucks." By "sucks" they mean that the damage of tree B was concluded to be 10% lower by simulation or web stats. Yet some of these same players have older, cheaper enchants, or aren't hit capped, or aren't using flasks, or aren't attacking from behind (as melee), or making any number of similar "mistakes." For them, the dps gain by adopting the cookie-cutter spec is less of an improvement than other changes they could make to their character. For many of these players the marginal gain by optimization is lost in the noise.

I'll make a real world comparison. You know those "space age" wetsuits that Olympic-caliber swimmers now wear? Would you swim faster in one of those? Probably. Is it worth the expense if you aren't Olypmpic-caliber? Probably not. Are there other things you could change about your technique that would improve your swimming to a larger degree (especially considering the cost)? Probably. Are there other things you could change about your WoW character that would improve your performance more than adopting the cookie-cutter spec? For many of us, the answer is also probably.

I'm not at all saying theorycrafting is a bad thing or that there aren't specs that yield better outcomes. Just keep it in perspective.