Will there be realm first 10man ulduar?

Valnoth recently posted some information on this but there have been some changes.

The only realm first achievements/titles will be from:

Yogg-Saron 25 man Hard Mode (zero Keepers helping)
Algalon 25 man

These will be separate achievements (not linked to each other).


Edit: Updated the information as the previous bit was inaccurate. Keep in mind we are still making changes on the PTR so more could come in future builds.

Q u o t e:
The 10 man Yogg-Saron Realm First Feat of Strength was removed in the most recent PTR build, so if you could get an update one way or another on if the 10 man ones are going live that'd be great. Thanks.

I checked on this and it looks like the realm first feats of the strength being removed from normal 10player Ulduar is the plan and not a bug. I updated my previous post on this as well.

We are still tweaking the achievements and their rewards for Ulduar so more changes could still come in future PTR builds.

Q u o t e:
Wow, thanks for giving us hope for a nice, unique title to work towards with our 10 man group. It was nice to think for a week or two that Blizzard was on the right track regarding SOMETHING.

Other players in this thread brought up the same conclusions we came to. A hardcore guild that is full Naxx25 geared will get some Ulduar25 items, then go to Ulduar10, crush it for the realm firsts, then head back to Ulduar25. We didn't like the game design that involved this and changed it in the recent PTR build.

Keep in mind that the patch isn't out yet so tweaks and adjustments can still happen for achievements.

Achievements are separate from progression, that said something we are looking into implementing is an achievement (like killing Algalon) in 10 player Ulduar that will require players to only be using gear that matches the item levels in Ulduar 10 (includes hard mode items). This would make it a pinnacle to shoot for in groups that only do normal level raids while still requiring heroic raiders to organize their gear appropriately to tackle it. This achievement could also have a unique title reward to go along with it.

Now repeat this line 5 times:
** This is not finalized and therefore not guaranteed at this point. **

:)

Q u o t e:
If such a thing is conceivable for a single encounter, why not for a server first clear as well? Just curious.

Because the 25 player raiders already have a bunch of the gear that matches Ulduar10 hard mode item level and will gather it faster and then get to this likely much faster than a group that only does 10 player raids - so that would defeat the purpose.

Q u o t e:
You guys really are jumping through all sorts of hoops because of the gear gap between 10-mans and 25-mans. Have you guys have been rethinking it?

We slightly changed the distribution for the Ulduar items, but for the most part we like how it has worked out so far.

Q u o t e:


Sorry, not a good solution. Since the 10 man loot seems to be iLvl 219, those with 25 man gear would just have to grab some 213 items (or 219) to replace their 226 items, which is definitely not every slot. They would have an advantage either way.

I seriously doubt there are many guilds out there that are truly 10 man only and capable of cutting edge (server first) performance. The ones that have the drive to get server firsts are generally the ones that join 25 man guilds. If you attempt this as a solution it will still be the same 25-man guilds that will be pushing for server firsts here too.

The best options here are 25-man only for server firsts or no server first achievements at all. As someone who was there for every server first achievement in WotLK I would support them being removed entirely. To be honest, I now have three titles that no one else on the server other than the 25 who were there can ever have, and that's not really fair. Limiting these titles to 25 is bad enough, 10 would be even worse.

What some others stated is correct, the recent solution we are talking about is not a server first limited achievement. This would just be an achievement that anybody could get, with the gear limitation it would be something that people who run 25 player raids would have to organize their gear appropriately for and for people who do only 10 player raids, it would be something to strive for as they gear up in Ulduar10 and get the hard modes done.

Q u o t e:
So basically you've come up with exactly the system we were talking about to eliminate your justification for removing the drakes for this?

I saw some people bring up an idea like this, sure, but this doesn't eliminate our desire/justification of keeping the Black/Plague proto-drakes rare. This gives a new challenge for players of any type to shoot for in a 10 player raid that would have a unique title with it.

Q u o t e:
Why not just reward a title for killing Algalon in 10 man then, like you did for 3 Drake considering Algalon is the culmination of a lot of hard core raiding in 3.1? You could even have it be something like:


"After defeating the watchers in Normal difficulty with nothing higher than ilvl *** gear on hard mode, beat Algalon in Normal difficulty"

[ ] Hodir [ ] Freya
[ ] Mimiron [ ] Thorim


Reward: "**** the Awesome"



Something like that.



I've also got to say I'm not even that big of a realm first achievement fan, considering only the 25 present get the title when any guild that does it can tell you it's a whole guild effort, especially if later fights have wacky group comp requirements. "Take the player not the class or not weird comps" has been the staple for WotLK, sure, but NOT when it comes to hard mode encounters, let's be honest.

Your suggestion isn't too far off from what I was talking about in previous posts, we just plan to take it one step further and try to minimize the impact that the Ulduar25 gear has on this Ulduar10 specific achievement. I don't see much of a point in having this AND what you suggested which is a title just for the kill.

The other titles currently listed on the PTR are for completing the new "immortal" style achievements in each of the dungeons.

Q u o t e:
Thanks for at least considering this approach. If you do implement even a single gear-based achievement, you'll have a viable "anti-trivialization" framework to work from in the future, as an alternative to just removing stuff.

I hope this is something that is there for awhile for players to shoot for, but some things are still likely to be removed. Like if you want the rusted and/or ironbound meta proto-drakes from Ulduar achievements, I would suggest trying to do it before patch 3.2.

Q u o t e:
Indeed, thanks for taking the suggestions of this kind of achievement into account. It's good to know that feedback does get heard.

I'm very heartened that, at least with this one comment, Blizz seems to indicate it understands the difficulties of the 10-man progression path.

Thanks, again.

I hope it works out as well as it sounds on paper. :)

Q u o t e:
I'm sure this has been said before, but I suppose it's not awful to say again.

In response to the blue posts that have alluded to the possibility of 10man progression achievements, this would be, imo, better received in the smaller 10man progression community if 10man and 25man raid instances had a shared Raid Lockout.

For me, I choose 25man as my playground for raiding. And I know that others choose 10. If that choice was made more official, I think that you'd find a true 10man raid community looking for the 10man challenge as their raiding focus - something which is lost atm.

We want to make a progression for both so you can pick one or the other and progress through it. If you are interested (and have the time) to do both, we don't want to limit players' options.

Q u o t e:


Removing the proto-drakes takes away a challenge for players of any type to shoot for in a 10 player raid that would have a unique mount to go with it.

By your own admission you are able to set not just item level restrictions, but specific item restrictions on achievements. Insisting that you are not open to doing this for the glory and heroic glory of the raider achievements is inconsistent with the philosophy that you want tiered raiding to have progression and that you want players from all walks of wow life to have fun and rewarding challenges. Come 3.1, the challenges you presented for the Tier 7 content are no longer rewarding. You're effectively throwing in the towel on old content just as you have done for every single piece of content released up until this point. The release of Tier 8 content with no reason to continue raiding Tier 7 content dooms the Tier 7 content to oblivion, especially since unlike most of the previous teired content there's not even any rare drops to go for (such as in Karazhan where people still go back to try for the mount and enchants, ZG for the mounts, TK for A'lar, Molten Core for legendaries/recipes, AQ for mounts/rep, etc etc).

You have a chance to make all the raiding content you release from WotLK on have some everlasting longevity and you're throwing it to the wind. In 3.1, Tier 7 has no rare drops, no rewarding achievements, and no associated reputation. Once you outgear the content to a certain degree, maybe not in Teir 8 but certainly by Teir 9 and into the future, people will have no reason whatsoever to return except for one quick run to cheeze through the achievements that give no reward. Take it to the next logical point of the future of WoW: the next expansion. Once players level to 90, the Tier 7 content will be the least-run content in the game, with *maybe* one run through per character just for achievements. By contrast, players will continue to run AQ, Molten Core, Zul'Gurub and etc forever because there's still a legitimate reason to go to those places. However, if you set item restrictions on the achievements and leave the rewards in (at least while we're level 80) people will actually return to the Tier 7 content week after week in order to continue to try for things like Immortal/Undying and 6-minute Malygos even after they've blown through Tier 8, Tier 9, etc etc.

The titles in the tier 7 content are still there, if you getting the 3-drake achievement and the immortal/undying achievements, it should be pretty easy to complete whatever else is left and get the meta achievements.

The meta-achievement drakes give players pushing content something to shoot for and a unique reward with it that won't be piled up by a lot of players as time goes on.

We will see how this Ulduar10 achievement pans out.

Q u o t e:
i mean really?

the 25man guilds can DO 25mans, who cares if they will do some 25man content then shoot for 10man realm first.

there are some of us who are SHOOTING hardcore, or at least were until u boned us in the back, for realm first 10man ulduar.
i mean is that fair?

and with you comment, current 25man guilds have the "10man ulduar hardmode" gear quality already..... shouldnt you make the stuff harder.....? i mean seriously

Having a hardcore 25player guild getting both the 25 and 10 player realm firsts doesn't seem right. We want there to be an end goal for each one to shoot for, if you want to run both, that's up to you - but this way the guilds that only run the normal version have an end goal to shoot for that the hardcore 25 player guilds can't swipe.

To try and clear up any confusion, the planned item level for the achievement in Ulduar 10 is item level 226. This level gear drops from both hard mode Ulduar 10 and regular boss kills in Ulduar 25. So yes, while players who clear Ulduar 25 will get more 226 gear at a faster pace and possibly get this achievement first, it's an achievement anybody can do, so when a guild that only runs normal Ulduar 10 progresses through the instance and gets the hard modes done, they will be ready to take on this achievement.

Reward: Herald of the Titans (title)

If you primarily run 25 player instances and want to get this achievement/title, just hang on to your Kel'thuzad weapons and regular Ulduar 25 boss kills and you should be good to go.

Q u o t e:
Actually, and I'm saying this now for what feels like the DOZENTH time. Its not catering to anyone. ITS ONE FEAT OF STRENGTH and ONE TITLE. It's not like anyone is saying you can't do the rest of the achievements.

You fail in this statement: "you successfully made every 25-man raiders life more annoying and inconvenient". Only one solitary guild is going to have to carry around their older gear as they get new gear because only one guild is going to get this achievement. As soon as that achievement is obtained, you can DE or Vendor everything.

Litemend: ITS A REALM FIRST ACHIEVEMENT. Meaning there is no "helping friends and guildies", once its obtained by someone, ITS GONE FOREVER!!!

The Ulduar 10man achievement is an achievement, not a Feat of Strength (if I hear of any changes to this, I will let you know). While yes, you can hang on to your gear for awhile longer if you plan to do the achievement multiple times, that is up to you.

Q u o t e:
The Ulduar Realm Firsts aren't feats of strength like the others?

The only "realm first" feats of strength will be for Yogg Saron on hard mode and Algalon in heroic Ulduar 25.

Q u o t e:
Yes, and isn't that what this whole discussion is about?

The discussion (at least as far as I know, it's been all over the place) is about how we removed the Ulduar 10 player "realm first" feats of strength and we are working on replacing it with something else.

We are looking to replace these 10 player "realm first" feats with a regular achievement that anybody can do but is focused on being the pinnacle of progression for players who focus on 10 player raids while minimizing the advantage that players have in heroic 25 player raids.