Death Knights - Can we get a tanking tree?

#0 - March 24, 2009, 8:14 p.m.
Blizzard Post
I wanted to take this time to express my frustrations with the directions of the Death Knight class. The way it was balanced, the changes and the constant circus show of applying band-aids on top of band-aids that, in turn, become permanent changes to the class, that weren't intended to be at the time. "What is a band-aid, and why do you call it that?" I think I'll get that out of the way. Band-aids are obviously taken from the context of real life, where if you have a scratch, you put a band-aid on it until it can heal on its own, and then take it off and get rid of it. In WoW, band-aids are quick, short-term fixes for long-term solutions.

Let's start by the initial band-aid: the class itself.

Death Knights were a class that was, primarily, put in the game to be a neat new class that got everyone interested in it... that could tank. At the time, people were complaining about a lack of tanks - which more stemmed from the way the levelling system discouraged you to ever learn how to tank until you hit max level (which still takes place today) and then, once you hit max level, you had to deal with people that did not want to "wait" for you to learn how to play a role, so you went with what you all ready knew from levelling, and while you probably weren't as good at it as a fresh 70 as you became later down the road, the role of DPSing was not nearly as important as tanking (or healing) and groups wouldn't necessary care much about your overall performance.

To put it simply, the mindset then, as it was now, if you have a good tank and a good healer in a 5 man, the rest of the group is relatively moot. But if you have three good DPS'ers and a bad healer and tank, then your group is doomed to fail. That's not to say that better DPS might not make the group's time easier, or quicker, but a DPS class's performance does not have nearly the same impact on a groups sucess as do a tank or healer. There are going to be obvious exceptions to this statement, but the fact of the matter is that it is overall true, especially if you are doing content which you do not ridiculously outgear, and even moreso if it is content that you are not experienced with, and do not outgear.


So, with Death Knights, they created a nice new hero class. I won't get into the concept of hero class and how it got skewed from beta - and to be perfectly honest, I think Blizzard probably made a mistake in calling Death Knights a "hero class" and should have just called them a "new class", to avoid the misconception that Death Knights would, could, or should be "better than" other classes.

We were laid out three basic distinctions: Frost Death Knights tanked, Blood Death Knights DPS'd, and Unholy PvP'd. There were some other distinctions in there, too, (like Frost was about "Control", Unholy was about Ghouls and Diseases, Blood was about HP or something like that), but these were overall minor and really don't do much to help or hurty anyone's argument as we're talking more about actual, honest-to-goodness in game "roles".

Somewhere a long the lines this changed, and the trees were supposed to be a "dintinction of play style, not role." and the idea of each tree having its own role was thrown out and replaced with the idea that every tree should be able to do every role just as well as every other tree. The biggest flaw that was pointed out in this thinking is that there is no precedence for it. That Blizzard essentially trying to fit the square peg, DK's, into the round hole, every other class. The only think even -close- to this precedence is the Feral tree for Druids, where they can DPS, Tank, and PvP with the same tree. It is the only precedence for containing three roles in a single tree - and, furthermore, Feral Druids have the distinction of having two separate "forms" that distinguish role in the way that they have entirely different abilities, and so talents can be easily made to have duality in affecting all roles while having a significantly lower chance at being overpowered for any. Warriors have something similar to this in stances.

Presences, you may say, are the same thing - but they aren't, because they do not allow or disallow you to use abilities, and therefore where as with a Protection Warrior, you can assume does not use Overpower while tanking, simply because it cannot be cast in defensive stance, you can never assume that any spec of DK does not use any ability regardless of role - making it overwhelmingly tedious to change one ability because there are potentially nine different applications of that same ability and how you could overpower/underpower that ability's application for one spec/role while balancing it for another.
#116 - March 25, 2009, 7:13 a.m.
Blizzard Post
I'll try not to ramble here.

We like that DKs have three trees in which to tank. It accomplishes a few things. One is it lets a class keep their role while trying a different spec. A mage can switch from Fire to Arcane and still do pretty comparable dps. A prot warrior who wants to switch spec is doing something like choosing Imp Heroic Strike vs. Warbringer.

Second, I'm not sure that the Prot trees for warriors and paladins were huge success stories for us pre-LK. They had a ton of passive mitigation and threat talents that felt necessary, so they had very few talent points to spend on fun stuff (like Warbringer). Druids are in a slightly different boat since they get two roles in one tree.

Third, it lets the DK shift from tanking to dps a lot more readily than warriors or paladins (at least in a world without dual spec). I know what it's like to be the Prot warrior OT desperately trying to out dps the healers on fights where you are supposed to dps. That has improved, but I suspect a lot of players in that situation when dual-spec comes out will opt for a dps spec. DKs have to commit to tanking talents too, but they are more spread out, and they aren't having to give up things like Scourge Strike or Frost Strike to get them.

We don't know what any of this means for the future of older classes like the warrior. With the DK we had a chance for a fresh start. Can I see a world in which Arms warriors tank with a two-hander and Prot warriors do dps with a shield? Sure. Is it easy to get there. Not really. Are players even excited about going that direction? I think the jury is out on that. (And you don't need to turn this thread into whether or not you think that's a good idea.) It gets even more difficult when you talk about the dps Holy priest or the healing Boomkin. Lolz.

Rune Strike won't earn a premiere niche in the game design hall of fame. It does its job, but it's not a particularly fun ability like Shield Slam or even Scourge Strike. We implemented it to solve a problem, which was that DKs are so locked into their rotations that missing an early Plague Strike or whatever could totally botch DK threat generation. We would like to add other DK abilities that center around threat generation, but it's tricky. For one, Heroic Strike aint going into the hall of fame either. Again, it does its job but at some risk to the player (not the character). Second, any new DK abilities we added would have to also fit into their rotation while tanking but not while dps'ing. We can't just make Icy Touch 2.0 that generates a lot of threat. How is that different from Icy Touch? Yet if we make an ability that takes Blood+Unholy or something that takes 20 runic power, it has to fit in naturally to DK cycles while tanking yet be unattractive to DKs doing dps, who have abilities to contend with already.

That's a lot of text, so I'll just say in conclusion, that this is a new class for us all and I think sometimes players don't give enough credit to just how much iteration has gone on in the existing classes over the past 4-5 years. We've tried to make up for lost time with the DKs, but they still have a long way to go.

The good news is, players seem to enjoy tanking with them. :)
#212 - March 26, 2009, 12:43 a.m.
Blizzard Post
Q u o t e:
Here's where is started to get ugly... these roles were NOT defined by Blizzard, but by the players themselves.


As a few players have posted, we did in fact start out with Frost as the tanking tree. This was announced at the WWI. By the time of Blizzcon, we had changed our minds.

Q u o t e:
So you mean we can dps if we are OT , GC thats not new thats called feral druids in the bc I dunno it seems like dk is going the same way than them a mediocre tank and mediocre dps with the same spec


I meant that there are fights that require one tank, Sapphiron for example. In those cases if you aren’t the tank, you are either benched or you are doing dps. It has been hard because of the mechanics to make Prot warriors and paladins do decent dps in those situations. We wanted DKs to be more like druids in that regard. DKs are also incredible OTs and back up tanks because they are not limited by rage. They can step right in and generate threat without having to have aggro (for rage) for a few seconds. But they are also incredible MTs too.

Q u o t e:
Lissanna was a healing boomkin, hence her blog Restokin. She refused to spec tree until Blizz buffed Lifebloom so much that druids had to roll it as the main way to heal. Especially when it was combined with the Idol out of SLabs. Course due to the random loot being random and 60+ runs to the first boss to see if it would drop with it not she then leveled her Shaman to be a Chain Healing Resto.


Yeah I realize there is a Restokin build, and it even worked in PvP for awhile. But that was typically a hybrid build of Resto and Balance, or a Balacnce druid that occasionally healed. What I am talking about is a tree that says Balance and has a lot of healing and dps talents in it. Or if you want to be crazier, a Balance tree with tanking talents in it. My point was that is probably silly, so I’m not sure how far we can take the whole design of trees determining your playstyle, not your role.

Q u o t e:
Ok then make every other tank class able to be as flexible. care to tell me how its fair for one class to be this flexible yet no other classes can?


It’s an experiment. If we tore open the warrior talent trees, we risk making a lot of players angry who like they way they work now. Obviously, we will make unpopular decisions when we think they are right for the game, but we don’t yet have enough confidence that it is right for the game. Let’s see how Ulduar tanking goes before we remake all the tanking classes using the DK talent design.

Q u o t e:
Do you even understand how RS works? Im sorry but i think this is the 3rd time i have head you make this comment... and it is NOT CORRECT, (or at least not this way in game)

You continue to say that rune strike is an ability designed to give us more threat when WE (THE DK) misses an attack on teh BOSS..... Yet the ability works the other way around. We dodge / parry an attack, and then we hit RS and the boss takes a big hit.


We generally like to refer to everything we do as a team effort, but I wll break from that for a moment and offer that I invented Rune Strike (of which I am not terribly proud). This is why you should not make assumptions about how well we know the game. :)

It is designed to give you almost guaranteed threat because when DKs miss a lot, their threat generation really suffers, more so than other tanks. Why? Because missing an earlier attack as a DK cascades for the rest of the cycle. If for example Obliterate was the DK threat-generating move, your group would be in a lot of trouble when the DK tank missed the first 3 Obliterates in a row, or missed a Plague Strike, which then caused the Oblit to do less damage. And as I am sure you know, it is hard for tanks to max hit and expertise without gimping their mitigation. So Rune Strike needed to almost always hit, but needed to be reactive so that dps DKs didn’t use it (and it was popular in PvP for a time despite all that). I fully expect we will come up with a better mechanic at some point.

Q u o t e:
This whole game is starting to get the band-aid treatment. Look at spells like Divine Plea, they could have easily just reduced healing by Holy Light or something by 50% to encourage holy paladin play style diversity, but instead they reduce all healing done to pigeon hole them into chain casting holy light constantly.


Off-topic, but me thinks you are using “band aid” when what you really mean is “I don’t like this.” It would feel like more of a band-aid IMO to affect one particular problematic spell. On top of all of that, we changed it so it won’t affect Prot healing as much. So, in my book, we have made it even more of a band-aid by doing what you propose. :)

Q u o t e:
You ramble too much.


:(

Next post I’ll just reply “Cool story brah”