#0 - March 16, 2009, 8:16 p.m.
Q u o t e:
Check back as many of GC posts as you can find (the wotlk beta forums would be good if they still existed):
1) He has played a warrior/tanker probably more than any other class.
2) He has no real understanding of mage mechanics and only makes very general statements regarding mages (easily shown to be misinformed).
3) He doesn't understand mana vs energy/runic power, doesn't understand hard oom as a DPSer, and doesn't understand caster dps class concerns (warlock, balance, elemental, mage) very much.
Simply, he misses the point because he's never played this role extensively and empathizes more with melee and tanker concerns.
This thread is full of people blue in the face of trying to explain to him how:
* energy/runic regen rate is equal to cast time.
* mages/boomkin have no benefit using mana over energy, runic power, and only a minor one over rage at the very beginning of the fight.
* downsides to mana are way more than downsides to any other resource.
* mages do not do significantly more damage while they have their resource that balances out the low dps they do when their resource runs out. this is a requisite mechanic to balance out mana vs other resources but has never been implemented.
* fights where rage and energy and mana are endless, mana dps does not change. rage and energy classes dps go through the roof.
* energy and rage and runic have no hard oom and have no drains.
* spirit will still be pointless to get for pve (and of course pvp) as long as it doesn't give BETTER dps than another stat. comparable is still pointless.
These and many other points have been made repeatedly, page_after_page, and you can hear the *whoosh* sound as they go right over his head each time.
Likewise it's pointless to try to engage him in an informed discussion about it, as his posts in this thread and others regarding mage and mana-dps mechanics should show.
This seems to be a very accurate psychoanalyst of your ideas and knowledge on the situation with mages and other mana-based casters. I'd just like to ask, is this true? If it is, we could work something out with you in order for you to understand what our problem is, would that be alright with you? For one thing, if we could get this all sorted out, you would fix about 2 classes and 3 other sub specs of other classes, which would go a long way to obtaining perfection, don't you agree?
EDIT: something I posted later in the topic as to what I'm asking with a little data (Example data, not true data) and what we actually want as Mages.
Q u o t e:
GC, You still don't understand why we ask for "infinite mana" as a DPS based class. This is because Melee has infinite resources themselves, they can never bottom out over a fight if it lasts forever, while a mana based class, can. (And I say you don't understand, as you were getting defensive instead of being truthful, what am I lead to believe other then this?)
For example, A rogue can do Mutilate every 6 seconds (Not counting his procs and everything.) Lets say this does 12K. Now he also has his Poisons and Melee attacks, which might be another 12K, so 24K every 6 seconds (Which is low, but I'm just making an example.)
Now, A Caster, does a 3 second cast for 12K. Then another 3 second cast for 12K. The Caster has done 24K in 6 seconds, same as the rogue.
THIS is where we get to our issue. We do the same DPS as a rogue, yes? The rogue could keep his DPS up forever until the boss dies or he dies, while a Mage will EVENTUALLY run out of mana, and will be unable to DPS. Now lets see what would happen if we gave the rogue infinite Energy compared to the mage with infinite mana.
6 mutilates every 6 seconds for 12K damage each, which is 72K damage over 6 seconds. Pllus poisons and white attacks for 12K, A total of 84K damage in 6 seconds (rogue GCD is 1 second I've heard, if it is not, I'll adjust numbers accordingly.)
Now, a mage does a 3 second cast for 12K, then another 3 second cast for 12K, which is 24K over 6 seconds.
The only difference, is that the Mage will now NEVER run OOM and be unable to DPS, just like the rogue could WITHOUT infinite energy, but giving the rogue the same benefit made his DPS jump up by 3.5/4x its amount. I'm saying this, as you say infinite resources isn't good (You said mana, but you really meant resources, as I've shown, unlimited mana just makes a caster able to DPS for as long as a rogue, while a rogue gains DPS off of it, which is what you were worried about.)
Now that the Melee/Caster discrepancy is done, I'd like to say what mages have been asking for. Mages have been asking for Lifetap, something to actively manage mana. All DPS mana classes should have this, then they could reliably manage mana, like Melee can manage rage/energy. Note, if a mage's Evo is interrupted in anyway, a mage will bottom out and be UNABLE to DPS.
