Ulduar: Another Chamber of Aspects?

#0 - Feb. 23, 2009, 6:52 a.m.

Before you read, this is not a troll. If you give me any of your "So you don't want anyone to have fun" stuff, I'm simply going to ignore it. Sailing through a game is not fun. I'm not saying that spending months to finally down a couple of bosses is either, but obviously we're on one side of the spectrum.

After reading the preview of Ulduar, I noticed something.

Q u o t e:
and it includes additional challenges and rewards for seasoned raiders

Q u o t e:
For example, spread throughout Ulduar's vehicle section are four Defense Towers you can destroy. The more Towers you leave intact, the harder the encounter with the Flame Leviathan will be, but the loot will also be better.

Really? Seriously? It was fine with Sartharion, being an extremely easy encounter and the drakes making it a little challenging. But, where is the challenge in that? It's literally just having gear. Oh, and moving out of void zones and what not. Not challenging, rather just a test of how much epix you (easily) got from Naxxramas.

The fun most people get from MMO's is from a reward system. Let me elaborate. You spend time working on something. You finally accomplish it. The loot is your reward. People enjoy this.

Adding more mobs to a tank and spank doesn't really make it more challenging. What happened to this game being based on skill? When the hardest encounter is more or less a gear check, this isn't good. And I fear Ulduar will have the same fate.

This was acceptable for tier 7 content. If you guys remember this thing called Karazhan, which was the TBC equivalent to Naxxramas, even all of its fights weren't tank and spanks. Some of the fights could be strenuous, involved knowledge of the encounter's mechanics, and a little more thought than knowing when to strafe to the left and then back. Even moreso, people weren't getting into Karazhan freshly 70 and walking out with a myriad of epics, at least not when it was new.

PuG's did not dare step foot in TK and SSC. Hell, they didn't dare get into ZA either. It was even a rarity [on my old server at least] to see a Gruul or Mag PuG going on. Why? If you even look at Mag encounter, the first phase is more than the WotLK croud could fathom. What? People have to be interrupting casts? People have to be CCing infernals? Do people even know what CC is anymore?

Like I said, this was acceptable for Tier 7. But Tier 8? I'll be mad if tier 8 content is still puggable, with only that little "option" for something harder. There was no "easy" mode for TK. You couldn't kill the weapons in the Kael'Thas fight before the encounter began as to make it easier. This is getting a little out of hand. If mid tier raid content is going to be like this, I have complete reason to believe that tier 9 will be like this.

I just think that's stupid. Like I said, this isn't a troll. I'm just wondering as to why there should be an easy mode for second level raid content. It was never like this in vanilla, or TBC.

#259 - Feb. 23, 2009, 5:37 p.m.

Q u o t e:
This topic is a bit hate filled sadly. I think this line of discussion is worth pursuing, but it always turns sour quickly.

This game can only stand to improve when players actively pursue to improve it. Suggestions and brain-storming are never a bad thing if your goal is to make something you love all that it can be. Unfortunately nothing good comes from building your argument on angry, hate-filled rhetoric and simplifying complex issues into tabloid titles like Casual and Hardcore.

It is possible for Blizzard to make mistakes that could hurt the game badly. Star Wars Galaxies, Age of Conan, and host of other companies have proven that even a decent product can be lead to defeat by poor design.

I would love to encourage people to debate the merits of WOTLK raid design and philosophy. By talking about it we can start digging through the dirt and finding out the real details. There is a possibility that it will hurt the game and slow it's growth, but it is just as likely (given our limited understanding) that is helping this game become even more of a market juggernaut. Just stop turning these potentially great discussions into petty pissing contests.

Yes, the OP may be a proponent of making wow harder and less accessible. There are also some people who are strong advocates of the current state of the game. Can we please not use arbitrary armory links, unfounded/made-up statistics, and hurtful name calling? Let's just talk.

I for one lam not sold on the current design, though I have had fun since I am busier these days. I have extensive raiding experience in Classic Wow, very limited TBC, and full Naxx content (on another toon, my DK). I say this not to brag, but just to give you my perspective. I have tried being a full time raider back when I was in high school and early college. It was really fun building such strong bonds with my guildmates over those years. In fact, I made such lasting friendships during those days that even now, in WOTLK I still get tells from old guildies who recognize me and are surprised to see me online (I quit for most of TBC). That is an amazing feeling, to spend hours each week with friends, pouring your work into a communal accomplishment that you can stand proud of in IF. My guilds first kill on Huhuran in AQ40 was on the most amazing kills I have been a part of. It tooks hours of work that was not much fun, suffering through old Mara for gear, and learning how to live in the wall, watching tanks do difficult rotations, and when I got to see a guildie wearing her shoulders in IF I could be proud of my tag <Angry Beavers>.

Everyone in this thread being called "hardcore" probably knows that feeling. I have more great friends on my server because of raiding than because of anything else. I have made zero lasting friendships in PUGs. PUGs only help you get gear and encourage a server environment where people only talk to their small close-knit group of friends and never become a part of the larger server community. This may not be entirely a fault of the new raiding model, but I do personally feel like I have fewer friends on the server, less incentive to log on, and I no longer have a clue who the "best" guilds on the server are any more.

The raiding is a boon for a lot of reasons I am sure, but I think something was lost along the way. Where is the link in guild chat of that item that guy is wearing in IF that makes you wish you could be in that guild and raiding that boss? Where is the incentive to sign up for that guild, hope to get in, work your butt off, makes friends and use your networks to get a guild invite, and the feeling of real success when you finally get to put on 8/8 Tier 2? It was a complex relationship between raiding guilds and smaller guilds back in the day. It was not an easy, nor user-friendly one, but I I liked what it did for the server, and I will say it again. I have more friends from my old raiding days, friends that I enjoy outside of game and I have met IRL, than I have from ANY other aspect of the game.

I would love to hear some other, non-hate filled opinions on this.

Discussions are great things to see so lets see more of this and less insulting behavior.

That said, we don't feel it is very good game design to have some big raid boss that we hype up in various ways and then minimize the number of people who can see it like Illidan. Sartharion 3drakes took players awhile to get through and if we have a bunch of more hard modes, it should take a good chunk of time to get through them all.

You mention that loot jealously was fun, this could be involved by having a lot of hard modes and therefore a good chunk of loot that you can only get through them which would separate a normal kill from a hard one.

Thoughts?