Ulduar - I'm Not A Vehicle I'm a Rouge

#0 - Feb. 20, 2009, 4:29 p.m.

I understand that Vehicles were a great idea and concept and used in small bits and pieces like in quests and maybe small 5 man encounters, they are a neat little "diversion" from the rest of the game.

However, I rolled a Rouge to end game raid with and specifically chose that class because of the gameplay elements it involves (melee high speed attacks, etc).

Now, with Ulduar weeks away, the first boss that I will encounter is going to force me to basicalyl shelve everything I learned about my Rouge and become a tank, a helicopter, submarine, or whatever and fight some mechwarrior boss.

I'm not criticizing the boss encounter and Im sure its great and fun but it clearly should be an optional boss.

We don't have many choices in WOTLK for raiding since its all linear now and to force some of us to play in vehicles in order to progress is just wrong. I could see if there were five other raid instances we could play in but there isnt , there is just Ulduar and this vehicle fight that has nothing to do with my toon.

Please reconsider making the vehicle fight optional.

Bornakk

#43 - Feb. 20, 2009, 4:58 p.m.

Q u o t e:
I understand that Vehicles were a great idea and concept and used in small bits and pieces like in quests and maybe small 5 man encounters, they are a neat little "diversion" from the rest of the game.

However, I rolled a Rouge to end game raid with and specifically chose that class because of the gameplay elements it involves (melee high speed attacks, etc).

Now, with Ulduar weeks away, the first boss that I will encounter is going to force me to basicalyl shelve everything I learned about my Rouge and become a tank, a helicopter, submarine, or whatever and fight some mechwarrior boss.

I'm not criticizing the boss encounter and Im sure its great and fun but it clearly should be an optional boss.

We don't have many choices in WOTLK for raiding since its all linear now and to force some of us to play in vehicles in order to progress is just wrong. I could see if there were five other raid instances we could play in but there isnt , there is just Ulduar and this vehicle fight that has nothing to do with my toon.

Please reconsider making the vehicle fight optional.

I said in another thread somewhere that we don't plan to make it optional right now. I know you and some others have brought up the idea that you should never have to do anything other than your classes skills, but having an epic fight like this will be a fun change of pace before letting you go back into your usual groove that you have done for at least 15 raid bosses so far.

Bornakk

#70 - Feb. 20, 2009, 5:17 p.m.

Q u o t e:
How is it a change of pace when we're forced to do it over and over again?

It is a change of pace as you are using a vehicle with vehicle abilities in 1 fight compared to your same class abilities that you used for levels 1 to 80 and a pile of encounters so far.

Q u o t e:
Hey Bornakk!

How about my concern? I really am quite concerned about the vehicle UI and whether than might be a stumbling block for people accessing the rest of Ulduar. I do remember the gates in BWL and people bashing their heads against it.

Not that Vael was a cupcake, but if you can't start the fight, you can't beat it.

There are two parts I got out of this.

First off we have gotten better with the vehicle UI so while this allows us to handle bugs fasters, but bugs will be bugs and we will focus on fixing them as quickly and efficiently as possible. We plan to list hotfixes as they are completed here too: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15211002734&sid=1

Secondly, Ulduar is meant to be a more challenging instance. Learning how to use a vehicle and it's 3ish abilities may be tough for some people, but at this point we are okay with this extra challenge. If you are struggling with it and since the vehicles scale with gear, make sure you have the best gear available equipped (sorry fresh 80s) and hopefully that helps out the raid.

Bornakk

#98 - Feb. 20, 2009, 5:31 p.m.

Q u o t e:

You know, learning how to use 3-4 abilities might be challenging for some classes. ^_~

Based on some responses, I'm not sure "might" is the right word. ;-)

And for anybody comparing the Ulduar vehicle combat to other vehicle encounters, we are looking these over to see what is the most fun aspect of them and aim to have the Ulduar one capitalize on these aspects. We live, learn, and keep moving forward.

Bornakk

#181 - Feb. 20, 2009, 6:06 p.m.

Q u o t e:

You have seen numerous times people say I play x because that is what I like doing. IT IS NOT a good change of pace and claiming it is to stray away from repetitiveness is crazy since YOU WILL BE REPEATING THE VEHICLES everytime you run Ulduar. Like others have said, the best solution is for it to drop a gate key and give the players who have done the encounter the option of skipping it and start doing REAL content.

Repeating it in the future makes no impact on it being a change of pace each and every time. If you truly do not want to do the entrance vehicle fight at all, Naxx is sitting and waiting for another run through.

I also disagree with your solution being a solution, like I would love to skip all the wings in Naxx and go straight to Saph because in my opinion they are the "real content" but that just doesn't work.

New challenges require you to step up.

Q u o t e:
I know I know it is just a handful of encounters, and no it won't ruin the game - but it does set the tone of everything. When you know going into something, you are going to HATE part of it, it doesn't make the rest of it appealing. Why do people hate Occulus? The entire pace of the instance seems incredibly disjointed, mount up hit 2 keys, dismount kill a couple of mobs, mount up hit 2 keys repeat. Overall it is very slow and hard to get a groove going. I would have liked to never even had vehicles put in, because I don't see any benefit what-so-ever. The real thing I am afraid of is Blizzard will get it in their heads that their vehicle system is so super awesome (like Arena) to showcase it and promote it to the extent that the rest of the REAL game suffers. It isn't happening yet, except I see a trend going, and one that is not good.

Check out one of my previous posts regarding past vehicle encounters.

Q u o t e:

My thanks.

I'm not concerned much about the 3 or 4 UI buttons, just about the bugs that kept certain classes from using the vehicles effectively for a time.

Yeah, I wasn't sure which way you were going so I answered both. PTR testing will be important as always and we definitely don't want to see any classes not being able to use vehicles. We'll post fixes as they come up.

Bornakk

#206 - Feb. 20, 2009, 6:23 p.m.

Q u o t e:
1. You will get the key from doing the encounter and only 1 person will get it. Making it an epic drop might help as well, as in % drop.

Not necessary.

Q u o t e:
2. Even though you have the key, people in the raid will need the items. Thus, the boss will be killed till all gear is collected from the boss. Afterwards, they will skip the boss!

Some bosses are designed to be optional, some are not, this is in the "not" category.

Q u o t e:
3. You're comparing a key to the start of the instance to a key to a key at the end of the instance.

So just saying your raid is awesome, skip any first boss you want should be allowed? heh, I don't think so, if you want it, earn it.

Q u o t e:
4. If people are concerned about it, then you should listen. The ui for vehicles atm is terrible. I would hope you fix all the bugs before releasing this patch. It'll cause a #!**storm for you if we can't get past the first boss. ;P

When people are concerned about something they haven't touched/seen/heard/watched/etc, I will kindly say thanks for the feedback, we are aware of complaints on some past vehicle encounters, but this is a new one and we aim to make this one more fun than anything else we've done.

Yes, bugs are annoying for anybody and everybody who encounter them. I can't promise they won't happen as bugs are, well, not intentional (surprise surprise?). But our testing processes have greatly improved from the past (ex. Blackwing Lair), and generally speaking we don't see a lot of massive bugs of the scale that people are bringing up (ex. Blackwing Lair).

Getting put outside your comfort zone is tough, but new challenges may require you to step up.

Bornakk

#249 - Feb. 20, 2009, 6:44 p.m.

Q u o t e:

I don't think that anyone is saying they would like to skip this because it is difficult. Most of the people I know are crying out for more difficult content. People don't want to do vehicle content because they find the play style annoying and boring.

Granted most have not played this content before so they do not know if it will in fact be annoying and boring but based on past experiences they are making educated guesses.

If it does turn out to be that case you are not making people do the encounter for the purpose of earned achievement and difficulty but for boredom and annoyance.

All this is moot in regards to keying because a key says, "hey I did defeat the encounter and earned my key." I just don't see the harm in making the first boss optional after you have already defeated it...

New raid format, bosses are optional after you defeat them to avoid boredom and annoyance... ? Yeah, um, no.

Like I mentioned above, a lot of complaints come based on past encounters which we are learning from and plan to make this more fun. You say "they are annoying and boring" so that is something that should be fixed to make them more fun, not just "I beat it I get to skip it".

And while you may be dismissive of the "difficult" aspect of it, there have been numerous complaints in the past on places like Occulus being too hard. It is something that puts people outside their comfort zone, yes, so if that is too unsettling there is a nice fairly comfortable dungeon called Naxxramas sitting and waiting for your return.

Bornakk

#342 - Feb. 20, 2009, 7:34 p.m.

Q u o t e:

It's a lousy point in the context of the discussion, hence my question. Bornakk is implying that our issue is with how hard the encounter is, and many of us have said many times that IS NOT the issue here.

I don't know how many times I've tried to explain that its the type of encounter and where its placed in the new raid instance is the problem.

So pretty much you are voicing a concern over the layout of the dungeon, but this argument can apply to almost anything. Yes, if the first boss is not skippable (examples: Razorgore, Naj'entus) and is majorly bugged, it will cause a progression issue. But if this happened on the 2nd or 3rd boss that isn't skippable, it wouldn't be much of a different. Bugged nonskippable bosses are not fun, but this makes the point pretty moot. If the vehicles aren't bugged and are fun, then you are totally cool with it and good to learn the encounter and move on through the dungeon (according to your argument).

You are dismissing the challenge/comfort zone aspect which many others have had issues with on these fights, but at the same time we want to see the dungeon be more challenging so hopefully it isn't a fight you can blindfold and win.

Q u o t e:
No, he's implying that if you're so adamantly against doing anything besides using the same class abilities you always use, you don't have to go to Ulduar at all.

I know others said it, but I just grabbed one randomly to quote and say, "yup".

Bornakk

#378 - Feb. 20, 2009, 8:01 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Frrst thanks for the reply.

No, the key defining factor of this boss is the fact that it is solely based on the vehicle mechanics. Speaking of 25 man specifically, the fact that the first boss in new progression is not related to player class ability but rather abiliy to learn some new gimmick.

Add in that gear will help as well. And while some people are dismissive at everything just being a "gimmick", you probably apply that to pretty much every fight, either way, you need to learn the encounter.

Q u o t e:
I drew the parallel to Teron Gorefiend and the impact that the encounter had on guilds for a boss mid-way through the zone. It was problematic, any average end-game raiding guild who did him before he was nerfed will tell you the horror stories of trying to amass a raid of people who could handle the "fun new twist" of that encounter.

Much like this vehicle boss in Ulduar, you are providing a challenge that is not easily rectified if people just "don't get it". People who have been playing World of Warcraft for the past few years, many of us the same class, are for more likely and willing to stumble through a challenge that requires us to play the game the way it has been played (our own class) for the past several years.

So, how does this not come down to learning new challenges if people just "don't get it" and can't stumble through it? And you mention Teron, while Ulduar is planned to be a step up from Naxxramas, Black Temple was a step up above several other dungeons.

Q u o t e:
As I said earlier, I feel like you've forced yourself to make this encounter now a loot pinata because of where you placed it in the new raid. If people can't get through this relatively quickly, and you think guilds will have patience for this type of a wall/block with a vehicle gimmick, then I don't know what to tell you.

If you disagree and think the encounter can remain challenging, you will have another Sunwell on your hands where only the hardcore pass through it.

I think the idea is a great one and should be placed further into Ulduar if you are insistent it not be optional.

The goal for difficulty is probably somewhere in between:
{Loot pinata}-----{goal}-------{Sunwell Plateau}

Bornakk

#410 - Feb. 20, 2009, 8:25 p.m.

Q u o t e:

This is an interesting question, and I'm curious to see the answer.

I have not heard of one yet, but I mentioned 3ish abilities earlier and not the 6 that the Malygos drakes have, this should simplify this process a bit and allow you to focus on learning the encounter faster.