DKs: Making bad players good since 2008

Q u o t e:
see subject. there are 2300 rated death knights that wouldn't have made it past 1600 pre-wrath unless they were playing a mace warrior. why is it acceptable to have a class in the game that dominates so easily?

Sometimes, good players choose the wrong class that doesn't fit them. Sometimes, they find the right class that fits them and they realize their potential. While I understand your point is to say "death knights are overpowered", what you're really doing is discounting the skill of someone else wholesale because of your perception.

Good players will always rise to the top and while class balance and class combos play a part in who rises to the top, skill should never be so badly discounted. Understanding how to use your class is just as important as the class itself. Understanding and anticipating what others do is also important. Working as a team is also another skill easily discounted by some who miss looking at the entirety.

That said, we've made mention in many many threads that ongoing class balance for all aspects of the game (in equal consideration) is always on our minds and always in the plans. You may disagree with us on what that means, but we're going to keep working on it, watching for constructive feedback, and moving forward.

This is not a particularly constructive thread and all it does is serves to tear others down who might just love playing this particular class because it fits them and their playstyle.

If you want to discuss things you feel should be changed or balanced, you're welcome to do that, but try to refrain from creating "nerf" based discussions. They're not particularly helpful.

Q u o t e:


Neth, you guys claim to look for constructive posts yet I see most Blue posts in threads that will be easy to respond to. Things about bags of candy, favorite sandwich toppings, and occasionally entering "zomg nerf _____ class" threads to say "there there, everythings fine".

Looking for a constructive post? Go look at mine, it's on the front page, it's got 3 pages of replies, mostly people applauding the good ideas and effort produced in the thread. There's dispassionate analysis of problems, there's a very clever and well-written solution by another player. What else could you look for in a thread?

S5 is the Worst Arena Season Yet[Math Inside]:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14990445861&sid=1&pageNo=1

Go comment in there if you're looking for constructive posts.

Hi, Hruka. :) Keep in mind, sometimes we jump in the "easy" threads because, they are in fact easy to jump into. Sometimes we jump in threads to help them along and move them in different or better/more productive directions. Sometimes we jump in for fun. And... Sometimes we leave them alone.

When we leave them alone, it may be because we don't want to influence the thread or we don't have anything we can say within the thread that would add value to the thread. That said though, not posting in a thread should never be construed as not reading it or seeing it. While the amount of posts on the forums is pretty monumental, we do our best to keep tabs on as many threads as possible.

Not every constructive post needs a "blue" presence, but that doesn't mean we aren't reading them.


BTW, just to clarify, I'm not saying that all players that play a death knight well enough have found that 'right class'. Though, I've definitely noticed distinct differences in those that do play one well versus those that don't. They may be moving along with everyone else, but that doesn't mean the journey is all that much smoother for them or the others with them. It's a strong class there isn't a doubt. But I tend to dislike the idea that every good player who plays a death knight is only good solely because of the class itself.

Q u o t e:


You guys say this a lot. I wonder if you're even trying to understand the post you're replying to... because on the face of things it completely sailed right over your head. Not to worry, though, this happens a lot.

You Blues are too self-centric, I think, and have too little perspective on what it looks like from this side of the forum.

His point was dead-on, however. If you reward bad behavior, prepare to see more of it.

Believe it or not, we're pretty darn good at putting ourselves in other people's shoes. We wouldn't be here if we weren't and didn't care. I understand your perspective and nothing went over my head. (Which I could easily take as an insult. ;) ) Keep in mind, I was a player far longer than I've worked at a game studio. I understand both sides of the coin, but perhaps you're not seeing our end on this. There are many nuances to what we do that aren't easily explained.

You're more than welcome to email to [email protected] if you feel you have feedback on Community Team performance. We're skewing a bit off of the topic at hand and I'd rather refrain from that where possible.


*Keep in mind, changes are in the works for all classes in the next content patch. We've shown just a small portion of those changes and even what we've shown is still subject to change. Not talking about all the details with you now, does not mean we haven't been paying attention. In the end though, we're going to be making the best possible choices for the overall health of the game. Some of those changes you may well love and others you may not love.

I think people have read a bit too much into what I said and made it into "all death knight players are good/skilled." As I said, we acknowledge it's a powerful class. I'd just hate to see those that truly work hard to understand the class and excel in it to be so discounted because they chose a powerful class they truly enjoy and feel comfortable in. (That goes for any class/spec that is seen this way.)

Q u o t e:
The only problem i have with this, and i'm absolutely positive that blizzard is aware of it, is that skill get's focused SO WELL, into the DK class. Never, EVER, have i said to myself "Wow, That Warlock/elemental shaman/shadow priest was REALLY skilled, knew what he was doing, and wtfpwned me." and i would really like to think that this doesn't happen not because of a lack of skilled players, but because those skilled players are having a hard time competing with such powerful classes such as the death knight.

And once again, I am glad that blizzard is aware of class imbalances, and am exited to soon be able to read the 3.1 patch notes when it comes out on PTR.

I like the way you put this.

Q u o t e:
The Death Knight is an incredibly easy class to play. Neth can argue all she wants, but she can't deny that they're the only class that is able to have a pet / silence / self heal / shield / melee power / ranged power / all rolled into one.


The fact is, alot of classes that Blizzard butchered in Wrath, simply gave up, and have re-rolled a class that is obviously over-powered.

I know guildies who have done this, and I know friends who have done this.

(To play devil's advocate)

Are they easier to play because you've played many other classes and have gotten more experience as a player? Or is it because they start at level 55 with so many powerful abilities as compared from rolling a new character from scratch?

Q u o t e:
hey Neth i got a great constructive idea. since you don't want everyone to discount the efforts of the skilled deathknights just because they play a powerful class, how about making them not so powerful and we'll all respect the high ratings they got with all that skill?

I think that's non-constructive dressed up in a pretty dress to make it look constructive. aka.. Looks like "nerf them" to me. Nice try though!

Q u o t e:

Let me ask you this: which would you rather play? A fully epic-geared Warrior with 71 points in Fury or a blue-geared Death Knight with 71 points in Frost? Which is going to be more effective in nearly every aspect of the game?

Do I like or dislike having a pet? :) I know Warriors who would never give them up for a death knight. It's just not their style or what they enjoy. Just as an fyi, I have a death knight, I haven't leveled it up very far yet though it is fun. I enjoy playing along side well-played death knights, but I'm not ready to make one a main.

I enjoy these debates because it shows those that think "everyone is playing a death knight" that everyone isn't and truly is invested in other characters. It also opens up discussion on a more multi-tiered level.

Q u o t e:


Neth, you listen to WoW podcasts right?

I'm sure once or twice, you've heard people on those podcasts talking about how OP the Blood spec is... how they were taking on Outlands elites no problem.... does that not even make you think?

I listen to what I can, and as I said in another thread, we don't ever stop looking at feedback from various sources. There were some changes made to death knights after their release that took a look at Blood spec and I'm sure there will be more things in store for the death knight in general. We're not going to stop looking at the numbers or how players are playing on any level. You can understand though that narrowing in too much on any one class can cause imbalances elsewhere as well. It's always a balancing act (pun intended) when we make changes.

Q u o t e:


Did you just say everyone is wrong and DKs are fine?
You're a very wordy person aren't you?. Are DKs fine? Y/N?
If you say they are, there is no need for us to think out and provide constructive feedback. Thanks. Confirmation like this from Blue could only end the debate once and for all.

Neth, I think what troubles these forums, what has always troubled these forums is that there is usually a handful of burning issues that go unaddressed by someone from Blizzard with clout. EVERYONE knows DKs are not struggling in PVP. EVERYONE knows Shadow Priests and Shaman are pretty much lame ducks in PVP.

They come here and Blizzard tries to argue day is night, or turn your nose up at anything that is "not constructive" When you do stuff like that, people start freaking out because it's as if not only do you not agree, but you seem oblivious there is an issue at all.

Please keep reading through my replies and look at what Ghostcrawler has said as well. Again, changes are ongoing as is balance. We're not unaware of the concerns over individual class balance or PvP balance. But we also need to continue to think carefully on the effect each change has on both PvP and PvE.