"The Forum Mindset" - Our biggest problem

#0 - Jan. 13, 2009, 8:34 p.m.

“The Forum Mindset” is the biggest problem with the WoW Forums and class balance discussions in general. Most people would probably say that the biggest problem is the inherent bias of the participants. While there is some overlap with The Forum Mindset, bias ultimately can be sifted out by taking in a discussion as a whole, including the thoughts of different classes on the same subject (like the Damage Dealing Forums). The Forum Mindset precludes even that solution. I’ll define The Forum Mindset in the following way, using two explanations and two examples.

First, that you can take any reasonably-powerful ability in the game, pretend it was not currently implemented, then propose it on the WoW forums, and there would be an uproar. For example, Shatter. If Mages didn't have Shatter, and you proposed "Mages, that are already extremely mobile, have high-critting nukes and multiple snares, should be able to nearly guarantee critical strikes on targets that already can't move", you would be laughed off the forums. Why? In practice Mages using Shatter isn't making the class overpowered. It's a mindset that anything that isn't extremely minor and isn't currently in the game must be overpowered.

Second, that there is a tacit acceptance of things that have been in the game a long time. To be clear, I am not suggesting people don't complain about things (obviously 99% of posts, including mine, do just that). But there are things in the game that were introduced a very long time ago that seem, inexplicably, to get a free pass under the microscope of competitive PVP. For example, Mind-Numbing Poison. Rogues are the best anti-caster class in the game. Well-played Rogues can shut down casters for an obscene period of time, all the while doing tremendous damage. If they did NOT have Mind-Numbing, and you proposed on the forums that the anti-caster class get a cast speed debuff TOO, you would be laughed off the forums. But since they do have it, now it's laughable to suggest it be removed.

Don’t get hung up on the specific examples I chose, as even if you disagree with my thought-process on Mages or Rogues specifically, surely you can think of a proper substitute for the context that would still convey the point.

The Mindset could be attributed to a lack of imagination, or perhaps that we let Blizzard’s collection of patch notes and tooltips define the range of our thinking. Ultimately discussions of class balance and changes would be better served if people could overcome this Mindset and, for lack of a better phrase, “think outside the box”. Some things would be ridiculous additions, but others only seem that way from the inside, but they wouldn’t be given a second thought if they had been implemented a year ago. Some things would be ridiculous to remove, but others only seem that way from the inside because we’re used to them, and perhaps we should entertain their removal.

I suppose the best analogy for The Forum Mindset is the one I’ll leave you with. My family had a German Shepherd a long time ago that would behave very curiously with respect to visitors in the house. If she saw a man walk through the door into the house, she would try to attack him, thinking she was protecting the home. If she came across a new man already in the house, she would treat him like he always belonged there, and would be sad to see him leave.

It’s this phenomenon that forum-goers need to overcome if they want to maximize their contribution to balancing discussions.

Ghostcrawler

#41 - Jan. 13, 2009, 11:43 p.m.

Q u o t e:
IMO the biggest problem was when the developers gave us all the idea that player input would be able to change the game mechanics. Now everyone has the idea that the game is won or lost by playing the metagame of screaming for buffs on the forums - the notion that whoever cheep cheep cheeps like a baby bird for more buffs longer or louder will have a better position in the next patch.

Honestly, how many other competition-type venues do you see where people who lose try to get the rules changed so they win instead? "Omg that guy scored a touchdown on me, hail mary passes need a nerf! Make it so that they are illegal, refs!"

I am sure there are some mischevious players out there attempting to mislead us in order to get buffs. But honestly I don't think there are that many. I think more often the players are misinformed. It's hard to know the mechanics of every class and keep up with the state of their current bugs and issues. Trust me. For example, very often I see dps specs comparing their raid dps to a spec that is at the top of the charts because it is broken and being fixed. Or they are comparing their dps to a theoretical maximum dps generated by a spreadsheet and conveninently forgetting that those are perfect situations assuming near perfect timing and skill.

The way I like to describe it is we need player feedback in order to make informed decisions. That does not mean the forums are for making those decisions. That does not mean that players get to design the game. That does not mean that Blizzard is going to use your suggestion. But player feedback absolutely leads us to change things in the game. There are plenty of examples of this occuring. It's a subtle distinction and not all people get it.

Ghostcrawler

#74 - Jan. 14, 2009, 6:46 a.m.

Q u o t e:
Can you give a hypothetical example to better explain your point? If your internal testing says "this ability is too strong", and player testing says "this ability is too weak", how did the player feedback help? Does it only help when they agree? An example would be great.

The context is everything. If players are comparing themselves to a dual-wielding DK doing 7000 dps, yes then of course they are going to feel like their dps is puny. But in that example they are comparing themselves to a class in a broken situation. If we notice that players with low or high numbers always have a certain spec then it might lead us to find a bug in the spec. Assassination rogues are a little low at the moment because there was a bug in Master Poisoner for a long time that nobody detected. When we fixed it, their dps dropped. Some fights greatly favor certain classes or specs. Patch is great for classes that can blow their cooldowns to great effect. Warriors like fights like Thaddius with lots of free rage generation through damage. The context is everything.

We like numbers and it awesome that the WoW community is so good at providing them. Just don't leap to conclusions that the numbers can't support.

Q u o t e:
Also it seems the new abilities as they are added to the game, are always better and have shorter cooldowns than the ones that have been around forever.

More emphasis needs to be put on how new abilities compare to older ones. Either change the older ones as the new ones are added, or be more careful when adding.

I think there is some truth to that. We also just get better at designing abilities. The newer spells often (not always) have a more specific purpose, are less clunky or just more fun. This goes for some of the talents too. Warriors compare stances to presences unfavorably and I think there is some truth to that too.

Q u o t e:
It would probably help in getting our big issues across, and for GC to be able to read and respond to them in shorter time spans, if people stopped posting massive numbers of trash threads where each and every person has their own idea about their own class/spec. GC could also step up to the plate and delete or merge threads when necessary to get rid of clutter.

Players take it personally when you delete their threads. Draconian forum moderation is tempting sometimes, but some players get really upset even with the moderation we do so we'd have to balance whatever ill will it would generate with any presumed benefit.

But I do agree overall we could use fewer new threads and less bumping. If players are interested in what you have to say, they’ll respond.

I will also say that we generally do buff things that need buffing and usually the consternation is caused by how long it takes us. That is something we are trying to improve though.