Worried about GC's post on Chain Heal!!

#0 - Jan. 1, 2009, 4:03 p.m.

Q u o t e:

You don't need Resto shamans to raid.

If Chain Heal ends up being the only spell that gets used to heal, or the spell that pushes Holy priests and Resto druids out of a raid, then we'll nerf it. We don't think those cases are likely, but we always try to leave the possibility open.

I've already said we'll adjust the content with the assumption that CoH and WG aren't going to be as huge a percent of total healing.

I generally read the forums but try my best not to post, but when it comes to resto shamans, I couldn't resist.

That has got to be the most faulty logic ever. And GC, if you're reading this, re-read the next part at least a dozen times just to make it stick:

1) If we're using Chain Heal exclusively in a raid, that's not the class or the spell that needs a change. It's the encounters. If you toss half a dozen bosses in Naxx where there's ridiculous amounts of AoE damage on every raid member, we will sure as hell use Chain Heal to ensure the raid's survival. While on the other hand, you put us in a position where there's limited AoE and everyone's spread apart, we will LHW/Riptide spam people. Don't hate the spell because of it. Retune your bossfights if you want Chain Heal to be used less.

2) Chain Heal will never push a Priest or a Druid off a raid, even in your wildest dreams. That is of course unless your raid leader doesn't know what he's doing. I know you already said it's not likely anyways, but I'm saying it's impossible. Reason is simple. Even on a cooldown, their AoE spell isn't limited by a jump range like ours. Chain Heal will never be, and never has beeen a "spam on tank and heal melee with it" spell because it is impossible to make it jump across the boss and hit melee. Not to mention that CoH and WG heal 5 people for equal amounts, as opposed to CH healing three for progressively reduced healing as it jumps.

3) If you're nerfing boss fights to be easier because CoH and WG are now on a CD, why nerf CoH and WG in the first place?! Obviously this means that the current bossfights pretty much require a spammable solid AoE healing spell that doesn't have the limitations of Chain Heal (as posted in #2). As a shaman, I'm perfectly content with Priests and Druids spamming aoe heals in a raid. Smart healers talk with eachother and split roles that best fit their class to ensure longevity and better survival of the raid. Those spells cannot push a good resto shaman off the raid either. Riptide/2xLHW combos are incredibly powerful and if you gear it right, it provides massive healing VERY fast for little cost. Not to mention Chain Heal is invaluable in just about every fight there is.

So the point is, I don't get the gripe with us healers. Just leave us be. We're perfectly fine the way we are. Fix your boss fights if you want us to heal differently.

Ghostcrawler

#3 - Jan. 1, 2009, 9:05 p.m.

I see this logic often, but it doesn't make sense to me. It reads to me like this "If we have an ability that is overpowered in certain situations, don't put us in those situations." That doesn't make the ability not overpowered. It just means we have to tiptoe around it's OP-ness.

Wrath of the Lich King has dozens of instance bosses. It's challenging making those all feel different, and denying the encounter designers the ability to cause area damage takes a big tool away from them. In an old-fashioned raid like Molten Core, we could get away with doing damage mostly to the tank. But players have gotten a lot better at WoW since then, and many of them have seen a lot of encounters since then. I don't think Naxx or Ulduar would be very exciting if every boss, or even almost every boss, played like Patchwerk or Golemagg.

Part of the challenge of taking a lot of damage at once is supposed to be triage (who needs healing the most) and coordination (I'll heal the tank, while you heal group 2, and that other guy heals the melee, but let's not stomp all over the hots). If the equation is very simple (If area damage, then use this one spell) then there isn't much of a challenge. We don't think Chain Heal is at that level right now (largely because of cast time and fall-off), or we would have nerfed it.

We do think shamans were stacked at the end of BC, but that had a lot to do with Bloodlust / Heroism and totems affecting a limited number of targets (esp. Windfury). But in fairness to the other healers, if we get to a point where shamans are stacked again, we are prepared to do something about it.

Ghostcrawler

#16 - Jan. 1, 2009, 10:04 p.m.

If you're suggesting CoH would be better with a cast time, we disgree.

If you're suggesting CH should be instant, we also disagree.

Or maybe I'm missing something...?

Ghostcrawler

#98 - Jan. 2, 2009, 10:04 p.m.

Q u o t e:
GC, if you're reading this...please give us your thoughts on this. You've said time and time again that you want to keep different classes SEPARATE in their playstyles. You've even mentioned this concept with regard to spirit vs. mp/5 stats. Well, AoE healing is a big part of the game at this point (as is AoE damage and AoE tanking)....and making healers worse at AoE healing when so many fights REQUIRE it is only going to serve to phase out certain classes...which is what you've said you're trying to prevent.

The four classes do have ways of dealing with AE damage to the raid. You have instant spells, hots, fast casts and AE heals. We have tried not to make any encounters that throw out so much damage that you can't function without a heal that hits 5 targets at once. As I said, those events are supposed to be about triage and coordination, not mashing the uber "fix this" button.

We throw AE damage at groups to challenge the healers, and to a lesser extent, the raid. Hitting one button 2 to 3 times in a row is not challenging. That's not how we want you to solve the problem of Saph's aura or Malygos' Vortex. It is in fact so not challenging that it starts to look pretty attractive any time more than one or two people are taking damage at once, such as most trash pulls and many boss fights. Sure maybe it's not the most efficient or even smartest way to heal, but it's sooo easy.....

We throw AE damage at the raid because players have proven they can pretty much handle any situation where only a few tanks are taking tons of damage (though we still have some fights like that). We feel like we need diversity in order to offer as many encounters as we do. Naxx and Ulduar have a lot of bosses.

If we find that we are throwing too much AE damage at the raid with the nerfs to CoH and WG, we'll adjust those encounters. I kind of doubt that will be the case since many groups have those fights on farm even without priests or druids, but because a lot of players are concerned about it, we will absolutely pay close attention to those situations. If we find that CH trivializes AE damage, or if cutting-edge guilds start stacking Resto shamans to the exclusion of other healers, we will make adjustments as well. Again, we don't think that is likely or we would have already done something. But we won't close the door on the possibility of that happening either, because clearly it is a concern of the community.

I have stated the above paragraph many different ways in many different threads over the past couple of months, so please forgive me if I start trotting it out a little less frequently. :)