[Monk] Mistweaver Consolidated Feedback

#1 - Aug. 19, 2014, 10:09 a.m.
Blizzard Post
Because we don't seem to have one and we have multiple posts about the same things spread throughout the forum.

With the most recent build, Chi Explosion fix was expected as it was bugged (from what I read, although I've only had time to test it in one raid encounter and multiple 5 mans). Nerfs to RJW and BoK while main concerns still aren't being addressed.

* ReM is still nothing more than a chi generator as it heals for negligible amounts.
* Uplift isn't worth the chi as it's healing is also negligible
* Zen Sphere, still collecting dust

But hey, we had a buff to Expel..... Also Breath doesn't split healing anymore so it may be a useful raid CD. Unless that's also unintended.

And before someone says it, yes I know we're down to tuning passes but I would have assumed by now the Uplift issue would have at very least been acknowledged by the devs.
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#117 - Sept. 2, 2014, 10:22 p.m.
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Want to try to respond primarily to Geodew's summary of other feedback. These are just randomly scattered responses, as I don't have time to do a line-by-line response, but figure this is better than nothing.

General response: You make some very fine points in here, but there's also a lot of bias. These responses below are primarily pointing out the places where we disagree, but there are many places in here that we agree with as well. Apologies if this comes off overly negative/dismissive; not my intention.

Intro) Remember that dissatisfied players are way way more likely to post about it. Mistweavers definitely did get some massive changes. In fact you just made a gigantic post about all of these changes.

1) Revival isn't underpowered (at least not by the giant amount you're talking about). Healing Tide Totem, which you're comparing to, is very overpowered. Tranq and DH are channeled and delayed. HTT is instant and delayed. Revival is instant and immediate, so absolutely should do the least net healing. The problem is that HTT was doing healing comparable to Tranq/DH, which is being fixed.

Fistweaving tuning is fairly far off right now, so its utility is hard for you to judge.

2) Renewing Mist is *partially* uncontrollable. The vast majority of it is effective. All of the math you did on chances for Uplift to hit injured targets is great, except that it assumes the ReMs and the damaged targets are randomly distributed.

ReM will be *extremely* worth it to cast on its own merits. I'm fairly certain that it is already.

Managing that partially uncontrollable healing to still produce solid results is a key tenant of Mistweaver healing style.

3) That's how Haste works for healers; not as much throughput (due to mana) as crit/multistrike, but it's reliable and getting that heal to your target faster is of intangible but high value.

4) This is a great example of psychological impacts of tuning in game design. Because Mastery has been weak in the past, it has to be overpowered before some people will like it. We're not planning to do that. No, it is not tuned around expecting your raiders to go out of their way to take advantage of it; that's just a strawman. Everything we're seeing from actual data indicates that it is effective. Only a small fraction of it ever gets truly wasted now, and that's offset by the fact that does less overhealing than average.

5) No, Crane Stance is not 'intended to be useless' in Mythic. That's silly. The tuning is off on it, and we'll fix it.

6) Chi Brew usable while casting/channeling seems reasonable.

7) What you're saying is accurate, but we don't expect that it will cause a problem for now.

8) Xuen is just undertuned, it sounds like.

9) That sounds like just how raiding leans towards AoE healing on average. Zen Sphere in particular we feel is just undertuned, and plan to increase it significantly.

10) We're not seeing that from our testing.

11) Yeah, we do see this, and it does violate a rule we generally have with talent design. Since it's an extremely fun combo, and the row it forces a choice in isn't a throughput row, and it's been this way forever, we're going to let it slide for now.

12) It isn't really PBAoE; you can place it wherever you want. It's a tight-AoE healing CD, which we do see as useful to a Mistweaver in some cases.

13) Yes, CE mostly replaces Uplift and EM (not completely, but mostly, which actually adds depth/complexity). That's intended, and the choice you're making.

Conclusion) Mistweaving is a very different healing style from other healers. It isn't the best fit for everyone, and that's fine (even good). I think the biggest difference is the indirectness. That may not suit you, and may suit others.
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#128 - Sept. 2, 2014, 11:49 p.m.
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09/02/2014 03:36 PMPosted by Totalchai
Oh come on, are you honestly trying to say that you've ever seen a MW that has 10% or more of their healing come from GotS in the entire history of the class? I'll post this again since you don't seem to get it:


It's mathematically bad. Mechanics aside, it is worth less than half of what Crit, Haste, Multistrike, or even Versatility are worth. This has nothing to do with the mechanics, this has to do with pure numerical terribleness. If Mistweavers all have at least 13% mastery and it never comprises over 10% of total healing, then it's bad. It' can't even theoretically be that much, even if overhealing doesn't exist and 100% of GotS does happen.

This should be the basis of your argument, not the strawman. This is what I can look at and take action on.

EDIT: Clarification: That's a tuning discussion; it's undertuned by your argument, which is a fine argument to make.
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#129 - Sept. 2, 2014, 11:50 p.m.
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09/02/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Zomgdps
09/02/2014 03:22 PMPosted by Celestalon
Intro) Remember that dissatisfied players are way way more likely to post about it

Just to footnote here; just because a player is dissatisfied, that does not mean the argument they are presenting is wrong, has no basis in fact, and/or is somehow inherently false.

Furthermore, it is also important to note that just because someone is not posting, that does not mean that they inherently are satisfied and/or agree. More likely than most, the people who do not post are indifferent and/or fall into the "do not really care" category (rather than the "we agree/disagree" one).

Carry on.

No disagreement here.
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#138 - Sept. 3, 2014, 12:23 a.m.
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09/02/2014 03:59 PMPosted by Hamlet
--Uplift capping makes sense to make spell more consistent, but to that end, shouldn't reduce healing for full-HP targets.

It doesn't. Full-health targets don't count toward the AoE capping.
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#141 - Sept. 3, 2014, 12:29 a.m.
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09/02/2014 05:04 PMPosted by Frostshock
First off I'm not really sure what you're getting at when you say "indirectness" - could you please elaborate?

Direct healing: I target someone, cast a spell, and the person I directly targeted gets healed.

Indirect healing: I damage someone, and some person gets healed; I did not directly target them. OR I heal someone, and that person and some other person get healed.

It's about whether you are directing where the healing is going or not.
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#143 - Sept. 3, 2014, 12:34 a.m.
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09/02/2014 05:08 PMPosted by Veeps
Does Celestalon not see that ReM is healing for 300 a tick, or 2k healing over 20 seconds? At level 90, that means I only heal 2-3% of a person's HP for 20 seconds with that one spell.

It has to be broken, it is currently the weakest HOT in the game by a long shot.

Can we get some sort of confirmation that ReM has scaling issues, or the numbers are placeholders, or something?

Every time someone has posted something like that, it's been due to forgetting that it's a 3-target HoT, not a 1-target HoT. Do you have data to suggest otherwise?

09/02/2014 05:15 PMPosted by Karuzo
I still would like to see Soothing Mist not break with Renewing Mist and Expel Harm too.

Those take up GCDs. Chi Brew does not. We're not looking to increase the % of your time that you spend Soothing, especially not by such a huge amount as that would do.
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#157 - Sept. 3, 2014, 1:18 a.m.
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09/02/2014 06:07 PMPosted by Stieglitz
Not to mention that only the first application is actually targeted. It's quite possible that the other two jumps could go almost completely to waste.

This is another argument I see, that is possible, but unlikely.

ReM will prefer injured targets over uninjured targets. That means that most of its healing will go to people that need it.
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#335 - Sept. 17, 2014, 1:40 a.m.
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Hey again. Wanted to pop back in and let you know about an upcoming change that we're making to help out with how unreliable Mistweaver AoE healing feels.

  • Renewing Mist will now jump to the lowest health target within 20 yards.
  • Still prioritizes targets that don't already have Renewing Mist on them over those that do.
  • Glyph of Renewing Mist now simply increases the max jump range to 40 yards.

It's important to note that this is a not an indication of us returning to having a lot of smart heals. But in this specific circumstance, we believe that it's the right course of action. This should ensure that Renewing Mist and Uplift healing is consistently effective, while still being uncontrolled.