Elemental Theorcrafing - Blue Tracker

#0 - Nov. 3, 2008, 6:17 a.m.

Greetings DPS, some of you may know me, some of you may not. For those that don't, a quick break down of what I've been working on in the past months. My main is a Balance Druid, it has been for as long as I can remember and I've ended up playing a Balance Druid no matter what I try to do, no matter which faction I play. Throughout the WotLK Beta, I kept an on-going theorycrafting thread alive for Balance Druids where I calculated out every single change and minor adjustment to the Balance tree in an effort to show where Balance DPS lands, where it is possibly too strong, and where it is too weak.

When WotLK Beta went public, and I was actually allowed to begin posting my information, there were many people within the Balance community that thought Balance DPS would be too sub-par and I have effectively used the Moonkin Theorycrafting threads to assuage those fears. Now, however, it's the Elemental community that is overly worried about their performance.

In an effort to help the community at large attempt to come to a better understanding of how Elemental Shaman DPS functions and the expectations from Elemental Shaman, I've tried my hand at cooking up a, hopefully, decent DPS analysis for them as well. I in no way claim to be an expert in Elemental DPS and I am fully ready for the Shaman community to point out every little flaw that I made - but that's okay; I expect it. This is just an attempt, an effort, to get a good snapshot look and hopefully find where we think Elemental is falling behind and where we think it can be improved using more realistic numbers.

As always, please remember that theorycrafting is just as the name implies - a theory. Any data that may be expressed here could not translate into practical game play in the least, in fact I wouldn't expect it to translate perfectly. With all that out of the way, let's begin:

Gear used:
Helm - Valorous Earthshatter Headpiece
Neck - Outsted Bead Necklace
Shoulder - Valorous Earthshatter Shoulderpads
Cloak - Shroud of Luminosity
Chest - Valorous Earthshatter Hauberk
Wrists - Bindings of the Expansive Mind
Hands - Valorous Earthshatter Gloves
Belt - Shackled Cinch
Pants - Leggings of Atrophy
Feet - Boots of the Escaped Captive
Ring 1 - Signet of Manifested Pain
Ring 2 - Lost Jewel
Weapon - Wraith Spike
Off Hand - Surplus Limb
Trinket 1 - Dying Curse
Trinket 2 - Illustration of the Dragon Soul

Notes – Except for the Tier pieces, all of the other items I used were cloth items borrowed from my Balance calculations I’ve done. Mail items honestly shouldn’t have dissimilar stats (although they might and this could prove a significant crux in Shaman scaling.) I’d expect the pieces of cloth which contain Spirit would have MP/5 in the mail equivalent – this was the trend with Tier sets. It should be noted, however, that Shaman may be forced to wear some cloth pieces as there are currently no leather nor mail caster items with hit on them.

Enchants Used:
Helm: Arcanum of Burning Mysteries
Shoulder: Master's Inscription of the Storm
Cloak: Speed
Chest: Powerful Stats
Wrists: Superior Spellpower
Hands: Exceptional Spellpower
Belt: Socket
Pants: Brilliant Spellthread
Feet: Icewalker
Weapon: Mighty Spellpower
Ring 1: Greater Spellpower
Ring 2: Greater Spellpower

Gems Used:
Meta: Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
RSx4: Runed Scarlet Ruby
BSx1: Glowing Dreadstone
Colorless x1: Glowing Dreadstone

Raid Buffs/Debuffs present:
Improved Mark of the Wild
Arcane Intellect
Divine Spirit
Blessing of Kings
Totem of Wrath
Wrath of Air
Winter's Chill
Moonkin Aura
Improved Moonkin Aura
Sanctified Retribution
Earth and Moon

Stats:
Spell Crit: 42.69% (LB,CL), 37.69% (Shocks)
Spell Haste: 20.2%
Spell Power: 2574
Spell Hit: Capped

Glyphs used:

Flame Shock
Lava Burst
Flametongue Weapon

Ghostcrawler

#4 - Nov. 3, 2008, 6:43 a.m.

We could use many more posts like this in this forum. Thanks!

EDIT: Since some players (ahem) disapproved of my posting here, let me add that I am not endorsing these numbers or the conclusions. It's just nice to see actual numbers, an outline of the process and even a summary of limitations to the analysis.

Let me also add that I post where I want to post, and that is not an appropriate thing to complain about.

Ghostcrawler

#170 - Nov. 3, 2008, 9:36 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Pretty sure he was just supporting an effort at a constructive post with numbers, as opposed to most of the other threads in this new forum. GC didn't agree or disagree with anything.

This.

Q u o t e:
Nobody gets blue posts in their class forums. Is this a new concept for you? The reason for this forum to be created was so that a lot of different classes could see the information people were coming up with and debunk it if necessary.

Also this.

Q u o t e:
________________________________________
Q u o t e:

Not every well written post gets a pat on the back and a cookie, they read them. They don't reply to all of them.
________________________________________

As a counterpoint, there has yet to be a very good Q and A session about elemental shaman, or the very least acknowledgment of their lacking. This was just another... don't really know what word to use... but for lack of better word, 'insult', to players like Brabus, and Ã†thÃ©r have spent ALOT of time posting constructive threads trying to incite communication with the developers. Yet out off all the posts... a post that not only has misinformation, but isn't even made by a shaman(Absolutely no offense to you Murmurs you're a great poster and player) it's just a very discouraging situation right now.

If you are going to over-interpret where and when I post, you are going to convince me to just not post at all. :(

Q u o t e:
I understand, but there are a lot better ways to handle it than what was shown. And I seriously doubt GC crunched any numbers to see if they are accurate...he just wanted more posts like this that actually has data in them for people to mull over, dispute and maybe even come to a consensus.

And this.

Q u o t e:
It's not the accuracy of the post that warranted the blue response it was the fact that somebody spent time attempting to show numbers and post them for everyone to see and peer review. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter because at the end of the thread if people contribute it will be right or close.

Yep. And you know what else he did? He posted the data objectively and was careful to try and outline where he thought the holes were (e.g. he admitted this isn’t his class). The better response here would have been to point out where you think the numbers were off, not to attack the messenger, or attack me because I didn’t post in your thread. I don’t tend to post in a lot of threads that are rabidly anti-Blizzard. My experience has been that players who post in those are typically spoiling for a fight, not interested in real discussion. (I have no problem posting in threads where you disagree with us -- I'm just talking about my personal experience here.) I don't tend to post in a lot of threads period. Don't make that the hallmark of a good thread.

Q u o t e:
Read my response above. I have had half a dozen (at least) data threads locked before discussion could occur, or out-right deleted from the forums. Why? Because they prove Blizzard is lying.

I don’t think you’re going to find a large audience who really believes those claims. If your threads were locked or deleted, it’s almost certainly because they violated the forum use agreement. We don’t lock posts just because they disagree us (exhibit A is half this forum).

In case it isn’t clear THIS is the forum now for this kind of data discussion. We were originally going to remove the class forums and then decided to leave them for players to communicate with other players. If you want me to see a post, it needs to be in these role forums. I’m sorry we had to change the rules on you like this, but we don’t think the existing system of communication was working, and from your replies it sounds like you’d agree with that.

Ghostcrawler

#171 - Nov. 3, 2008, 9:37 p.m.

Q u o t e:
You're talking about Shaman, I take it?

We can't even get blue responses in BETA that deal with our class problems.

I count over 100 blue beta responses in the shaman forum just from my quick search. I’m sorry I didn’t post in the thread *you* thought I should post in. My new stance on that is just going to be that *I* decide when and where I post and that’s that. Complaints about where I post will probably start getting deleted. I just don’t know how else to handle the situation and still remain active on the forums.

Q u o t e:
And now you have GC that thinks he knows all and pats himself on the back because he thinks he can take over for a bunch of silly little blues that don't listen to reason when we've been polite, we've thrown up countless threads consistantly proving their numbers wrong. And he's continuing on with the same stupid redundant behaviour.

Remind me again why I would want to read your posts? :)

Q u o t e:
GC may have also posted in this thread because murmurs is one of the better theorycrafters for druids and has constantly been linked to and copied on the druid beta forums. perhaps he saw a familiar name and knows his posting style, so decided to use him as an example. Posting in the thread does not mean he agrees with it, only that he would like to see more threads in the same vein as this one.

This too.

If we have to ban and delete our way to having decent conversations in the forums, we can do that. I don’t personally think that’s the right approach because we will lose some smart contributors. But if you’re going to stick around here, you need to chill. Complaining that you didn’t get a blue post or bringing up the four years or whatever that you felt neglected is not going to help us make any meaningful progress on Elemental or any other game design issues.

Sorry for those of you who were using this as a legitimate attempt to discuss the numbers and the issues. Let this also be a lesson to all of us (most of all to me) that a blue post is not always the best thing to happen to a thread.

I'll leave this unlocked for now in the desperate hope that it gets back on track.

Ghostcrawler

#274 - Nov. 5, 2008, 7:33 a.m.

Q u o t e:
The thing that bothers me about GC's response. Granted it was one and it lessened my erage towards him, Not that i had all that much tobegin with as i gave up on the class more than anything, but yet it doesn't tell you anything. He stated the same exact thing in another thread/post somewhere. Although i'm not going to argue that he replied cuz he did. It was nice of him to take the time to respond, but a tiny bit more would have been helpful.

Bewmkin, I am going to respond to the threads I am going to respond to. It makes me very weary when I see so many complaints about which threads I respond to and how.

Q u o t e:
Were they aware this was going on? How long have they known about it? Have they actually tested things out on their shammy toons? (I still haven't gotten a straight answer if they do indeed PLAY shammies, or do they have someone play it for them and tell them what they found out?). What are their goals behind the shammy class, as in where do they see this class headed?

We don't comment on which classes we play. No matter what the answer was, even if I had 30 specs on both factions at 2500 Arena ratings and glaives for even the warlocks, players would find some hint of bias. And I'd be told to L2P anyway. We do have some very, very good shamans working for us and we are in contact with some excellet shamans from the community. Not all of our conservations occur through these forums, and it's pretty easy to see why. :)

Q u o t e:
Right now this class really has no definition of where or what Blizzard wants to take this class. There's no road / goal for this class. We used to be a support / medium dps, support / healing class. Now most (Not all) of our support is being brought by other classes such as DK's. It bothers me a little bit that other classes will have just about the same utility as we do and yet nothing is compensated for our dps at all.

I learned pretty early in this job that trying to provide a roadmap the way you describe doesn't work. Players tend to throw down that gauntlet when they want to display their frustration with the class. "It's obvious Blizzard has no direction -- that's why they didn't implement this new talent I asked for!" Even if they do buy our goals for the class, it then becomes a game of trying to use those goals to back up every suggestion that comes up. "You said you wanted Elemental shamans to be a support / healing class. Well our support / healing will suck until you give us all this new stuff!"

I'm not trying to be cynical about all of this (if I was a cynic, I would have given this up months ago). But I do have enough experience dealing with players to know how they try to leverage information for their benefit. My advice is just to play the class. The class is the sum of the abilities we give you.

I think I have posted recently (or maybe it was in the beta forums -- I forget -- though you probably read it either way) some of what we're looking at for Elemental:

-- More scaling at very high gear levels (higher than exist in the game now)
-- More damage out of those deep talents that only grant utility now
-- Real AE

But you are right that we have allowed your old utility to be brought by other classes. That was exactly the goal. To compensate, we buffed your damage. We think it's pretty competitive at 80 with a Lava Burst rotation, but if it's not, we'll buff it again.

Q u o t e:
That's where my gripe comes in and that's where i get a bit hostile. The nerd rage comes out mostly because i'm paying 15$ for something that i'm addicted to playing. Believe it or not it's been hard to quit playing wow. And if it wasn't for my pc breaking down for the past 5 days i wouldn't have taken the time to even come on here and post as much as i had. I've not played a lick of wow since my pc blew up ;) I deserve a cigar or something!

Well, first I would suggest you take a break! My second suggestion would just be not to get hostile. Hostile players eventually get banned and then nobody here is going to benefit from any insight or feedback you might have. :(

Ghostcrawler

#301 - Nov. 5, 2008, 9:21 p.m.

Q u o t e:
So you now determine on what subjects we can and cannot complain about? I think you need to take a step back and realize what you are versus what you want to be. You are not the moral authority that dictates to us what is appropriate. We have forums guidelines that we agree to for the right to post in these forums. If you feel insulted in some way when people complain about where and when you post then that is your problem to fix, not ours. Ultimately you have the power to ignore those posts or not be affected by those types of comments. Trying to force your ideologue about what you think is appropriate on a community is asinine. You are a professional working for one of the best companies on the planet to provide quality service and expertise. You are not a 12-year-old QQing about some random change that happened to some pixels in a game, but you are staring to sound one. You need to Step back, gain some perspective, and work accordingly. Don't worry about things you cannot control, try to make the best of every situation.

Yes, we get to determine what you can and can't complain about. It's our forum. Sorry. You can't complain about religion or politics. You can't complain about where I choose to post. You *can* complain about class balance or other aspect of game design as much as you want. If you make intelligent and useful complaints, I promise to read them.

Q u o t e:
This statement was a little ambiguous and I've seen you make it before. Given that Lich isn't live yet are you including all current level 80 content in this statement or only up to Sunwell? I'm just curious where you think the scaling issue with gear is going to crop up.

I am talking about exclusively about level 80. That is the only thing that is going to matter to 99% of those players who worry about class balance in a little over a week.

You can do things (well, *we* can do things) like make 10,000 spell power gear and then see what the damage numbers look like. Assume Boomkin and Elemental dps was close at Naxx-level gear, but Boomkin pulled way ahead with the 10,000 spell power gear. That means Balance scales a lot better. That’s probably not a problem if it takes 10,000 spell power to get there, because there will be new levels and gear and everything will have changed by that time. If it takes 2000 or 3000 spell power then it probably is a problem.

We’d like to give Elemental either a talent that converts Int to spell power or gives a better spell power to damage conversion (or both). We just don’t know yet if we’ll do this through existing talents or new talents. I’ll announce it when we know.

Q u o t e:
Heheh Busted GC. Wasn't it you that said that you played a Druid? I can't recall exactly as it's on blue tracker on mmo champion. But i do remember it somewhere.

I play a druid. I play a shaman too. Elemental in fact. ;p I have many more. I don’t usually talk about my characters. I love them all as much as many of you probably love your characters.

Ghostcrawler

#323 - Nov. 6, 2008, 1:04 a.m.

Q u o t e:
You play a dirty Feral Druid. >.>

I didn't heal Naxx with a Feral druid. Boom.

Don't worry about what I play. Blizzard has enough coverage for every possible spec in every possible play style. We have an amazing ability to pull data from the game. We have a lot of testers. And we know a lot of people who can give us additional feedback.

You can accuse us of bad math or bad design or whatever, but you really don't need to worry about the "Has Blizzard ever played a troll elemental tailor shaman in a 2v2 Arena team on an RP server with bad lag" issues. We got all that part covered.