People are in for a Rude Awakening

I guess I agree with the sentiment, but not necessarily the catalyst. You seem to be taking issue with the concept of order of respect in the hierarchy of class. That those in your group owe you something as your class is first in the order of proper pulling etiquette.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly try my hardest to be polite in-game, but I think that hierarchy is sort of out of the window right now. With the age of the expansion, people's time in these instances, level of gear (and health), and amount of threat redirect abilities, the natural order of Tank marks, Tank pulls, Wait three seconds, DPS, doesn't apply. It doesn't have to apply as it doesn't mean they'll waste time if they don't follow it (assuming proper play from all others).

If there's an issue, the DPS will die, and then at that point it's the healer that can say "Don't pull aggro dummy" (My current main is a priest) and that's what happens when people aren't going to bother trying to manage threat or allow the tank to tank.

BUT, personally, I think the goal of most people, and thus something you should probably work to adapt to and not fight, is that most people just want to get through the instance as fast as possible. That means adapting and pulling groups before the current one is done, that means being aware that DPS aren't going to wait. That also means making sure the healer isn't struggling. ;D

There's a lot of things that factor into it, but as I said I definitely agree with the sentiment. People are going to get hit like a truck in Cataclysm, as they did in Wrath, when they realize they aren't the all-powerful beings they came to think they were while they steamrolled month or year-old instances. Groups will wipe, and people will leave them thinking someone isn't doing their job, until they realize it's them, it's everyone, and they can't just roll through instances like they had gotten used to. I will see them here bright and early on the 7th, saying it's all too difficult. But people learn, they get used to new concepts, the world keeps rolling, and I get to enjoy a delicious donut. (Don't take that as a dismissal of valid balance issues, just the majority of kneejerk it's-too-hard complaints.)

What actually helps at that point though is being a leader, letting people know what's up, giving some brief direction, that they aren't in Ahn'Kahet anymore, and ideally also knowing what you're doing. And that leader doesn't have to be the tank, either. Anyone can take a second to open chat, offer some friendly advice, and help create a smoother run.

If there's an issue, the DPS will die, and then at that point it's the healer that can say "Don't pull aggro dummy" (My current main is a priest) and that's what happens when people aren't going to bother trying to manage threat or allow the tank to tank.

As a fellow healer, coincidentally, a fellow priest, I have a question for you.


One-shots aside, if it is within your capacity to heal that DPS who pulled agro, if it is possible for you to do so without letting the tank or someone at even lower HP die, do you?

Or do you stand there with full mana as their HP whittles down to 0?

No, I don't purposefully let anyone die. That doesn't accomplish anything except feeding your own sense of self importance. It doesn't teach anyone a lesson.

That's in specific answer to your scenario, of course. If the DPS is taking hits but the tank is dipping, you have your heal priority, that's just being an intelligent healer. If the DPS dies because I need to focus on the tank, then so be it, but no, I would never sit there and purposefully let someone die.

I also want to comment on your statement of "most people just want to get through the instance as fast as possible".
Sure, they do NOW. Everyone is expected at this stage in the game to just know the instances, have the gear, and are ONLY there for farming points. However, I have to play devil's advocate and state that sometimes, it might just be a NEW PLAYER that is still marvelling at the new textures, graphics, boss armor, loot drops... whatever.
The reaction to those types differentiates the true lovers of the game from the loot farming jerks that really should be playing with friends that have the same interests.

I find it generally inaccurate in trying to come up with a reason why someone plays the way they do. I love the game, but at some point I just want to watch Man vs Food on my second monitor while I cruise-control heroics.

I feel for new players coming into the end-game on the cusp of a new expansion, I do. In some cases it may be enough to put them off of the game forever. I didn't get that sense from the OP, and while I do agree it can be a problem, new players are actually more adaptable than the rest of us. They don't have these baked-in senses of how the order of things should go.

You did end on a great suggestion though and when I was first getting into Wrath dungeons I made sure I had a group that was willing to experience it with me. I don't care to race to the end, I like enjoying the game world. Not everyone cares as much, and that's fine. The lesson is that if you have such a strong desire for the run to go a specific way that it may be best to do so with like minded people instead of running with strangers. I understand some of that is overshadowed with the shinies of LFD, but it's the difference between having a great run, and driving yourself into madness because you can't control what other people think and feel.

If there's an issue, the DPS will die, and then at that point it's the healer that can say "Don't pull aggro dummy" (My current main is a priest) and that's what happens when people aren't going to bother trying to manage threat or allow the tank to tank.

As a fellow healer, coincidentally, a fellow priest, I have a question for you.


One-shots aside, if it is within your capacity to heal that DPS who pulled agro, if it is possible for you to do so without letting the tank or someone at even lower HP die, do you?

Or do you stand there with full mana as their HP whittles down to 0?

No, I don't purposefully let anyone die. That doesn't accomplish anything except feeding your own sense of self importance. It doesn't teach anyone a lesson.

That's in specific answer to your scenario, of course. If the DPS is taking hits but the tank is dipping, you have your heal priority, that's just being an intelligent healer. If the DPS dies because I need to focus on the tank, then so be it, but no, I would never sit there and purposefully let someone die.

Then can you please alter the fire damage so that it's not possible to heal them through it?

Because one of the several reasons I quit raiding in wrath was being told "you can do it so you should" by my raid leader regarding the topic of healing a mage that stood in Lady D's death and decay since he'd just popped his cooldowns and was one of our top dps. I have 23 other people in the raid to heal, not counting myself, and I'm not going to waste my time with some fool that won't move while I'm being ordered to heal them.

3 seconds TTL is enough. If they can't get out of the fire in 3 seconds, then they need a new net connection, to stop raiding with 3k+ ms latency, or get the hell out of my raid.

Not to be cold hearted, but... solvedwith/gquit.

I realize that's almost never a valid solution (or smart one) but really that sounds like a guild issue resolved through communication. And maybe some humility. Maybe, and I don't claim to know your setup/strat/whatever, but maybe it was the best way to work through that fight and you were capable. ... or maybe it was something they saw some other guild do in a video that outgeared and outclassed yours and assumed it was a valid strat for every guild. ;)

I have to ask you, slightly off topic but slightly not...

What's it like when you run these instances? Knowing that you put some of the work into it. It'd be weird to me. ><

I vomit.

Constantly. I mean constantly. It's just like ... constant.

Seriously though I don't put any work in to the instances, and I try my hardest to keep what content I can a surprise. I usually do pretty well and am always in awe when I step into a dungeon the first time with all the other players.

I just write words. :)

I find it generally inaccurate in trying to come up with a reason why someone plays the way they do. I love the game, but at some point I just want to watch Man vs Food on my second monitor while I cruise-control heroics.

No Reservations is better =P

Yeah but I've watched all the seasons already...

Bashiok, dearies.. I did. I did and I haven't raided since.

Two problems:

Exhibit A

I had a discussion in trade

Exhibit B

your own healer forum

Haha. ;)

Really though, no one should tell you how you should play or enjoy the game. There are definitely things to be learned from others, and being open to those lessons is very important, but if you feel strongly about how you would like to play the game then you can find a situation that works for you.

I guarantee you there's a guild out there that needs a healer and when you protest healing them through fire say "Ok, let's find a different solution". There are so many people and so many guilds, and if there isn't one you can find, you can make on yourself. Charter Rule #1 - Healers are not allowed to heal anyone who is standing in fire.

How the hell are they going to learn that they HAVE to try to keep themselves alive if I keep them alive through stupid?

This might be the breakdown. You're attempting to force what you feel is right on the wrong situation. They aren't saying you need to heal stupid, they're saying this is the best strategy for downing the boss and progressing. Your goal, as a collective, should be in working together to progress through content. Assuming that what they're asking is not beyond anyones means. If they're asking me to heal group A and B but I'm not geared enough, I'm not a good enough player, or it's just simply not possible, sho nuff people are going to die and I'm going to say, sorry yo, I can't hang. AIGHT. And we have to change strats. That's being a team. Being within my means though, I'm not going to be as prideful to refuse a strategy that could work to progress me and my friends because I think I shouldn't have to.

That's not judging you or your specific situation, I don't know the ins and outs, but I would hazard that with a mindset to help and not teach lessons, you'd have faired better.

My 0.02 cents and I apologize if I sound judgmental or am off the mark. Not my intent. I'm just trying to provide different viewpoints on things, if possible.

But as I said in the beginning you decide how you want to play.

12/02/2010 5:23 PMPosted by Kaellus

I guess I agree with the sentiment, but not necessarily the catalyst. You seem to be taking issue with the concept of order of respect in the hierarchy of class. That those in your group owe you something as your class is first in the order of proper pulling etiquette.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly try my hardest to be polite in-game, but I think that hierarchy is sort of out of the window right now. With the age of the expansion, people's time in these instances, level of gear (and health), and amount of threat redirect abilities, the natural order of Tank marks, Tank pulls, Wait three seconds, DPS, doesn't apply. It doesn't have to apply as it doesn't mean they'll waste time if they don't follow it (assuming proper play from all others).

If there's an issue, the DPS will die, and then at that point it's the healer that can say "Don't pull aggro dummy" (My current main is a priest) and that's what happens when people aren't going to bother trying to manage threat or allow the tank to tank.

BUT, personally, I think the goal of most people, and thus something you should probably work to adapt to and not fight, is that most people just want to get through the instance as fast as possible. That means adapting and pulling groups before the current one is done, that means being aware that DPS aren't going to wait. That also means making sure the healer isn't struggling. ;D

There's a lot of things that factor into it, but as I said I definitely agree with the sentiment. People are going to get hit like a truck in Cataclysm, as they did in Wrath, when they realize they aren't the all-powerful beings they came to think they were while they steamrolled month or year-old instances. Groups will wipe, and people will leave them thinking someone isn't doing their job, until they realize it's them, it's everyone, and they can't just roll through instances like they had gotten used to. I will see them here bright and early on the 7th, saying it's all too difficult. But people learn, they get used to new concepts, the world keeps rolling, and I get to enjoy a delicious donut. (Don't take that as a dismissal of valid balance issues, just the majority of kneejerk it's-too-hard complaints.)

What actually helps at that point though is being a leader, letting people know what's up, giving some brief direction, that they aren't in Ahn'Kahet anymore, and ideally also knowing what you're doing. And that leader doesn't have to be the tank, either. Anyone can take a second to open chat, offer some friendly advice, and help create a smoother run.

i really wish you played in vanilla bashiok i really do because then you would realize all the people who do the exact crap that you just said are the aholes in game and its pretty obvious you play a dpser who rushes the tank.... :( <----sad panda :(

I've been playing since alpha.

As I said, I mainly play a holy priest, and in my opinion, a tank playing at a pace I find acceptable couldn't be rushed. ;)