The Sinister Calling Problem...

#0 - Oct. 21, 2008, 7:42 a.m.

The discussion as I see it is that people who have been unlucky with the RNG are unhappy about the fact that they cannot control or have no real direct influence over the completion of the achievement (hence the meaning of the word "random"). The problem with this is that Blizzard has stated that they want the meta achievement to be a rare accomplishment, not easily obtainable by the masses.

So, understanding that this is supposed to be an uncommon feat, the next argument usually put forth by dissenters is "RNG isn't the only way to make something rare." Well that's true... but in reality it's one of the very few ways to make something rare. So let's discuss the other options, and perhaps try to come up with some more of our own. Afterall, what use is there in crying if we have no better ideas to contribute?

Ways to make things rare:
1. Give it a low drop rate via RNG. This is probably the most common way Blizzard likes to make things rare or unique. It's the one that Blizzard has employed with this holiday. The problem is that it can be extremely unforgiving and somewhat cruel when coupled with a time limit. Other items with extremely low drop rates (like the whelp pets for example) can be farmed year round, and while painful to get due to the low drop rate, don't see too many complaints from the peanut gallery while remaining rare. When a time limit is involved, however, low drop rates probably aren't the best solution.

2. Greatly increase the difficulty of the encounter. One good and easy way to make something rare is to make it drop from a boss or mob that is extremely difficult to kill -- Kil'jaeden for example. Making the content extremely difficult to complete ensures that only a small percentage of the playerbase sees it done. However, as everyone knows, the percentage of this playerbase we're talking about here is the upper echelon of elite raiders. Making something drop from a boss that difficult completely eliminates all casuals from the fold, until you factor in the Amani War Bear syndrome (regular players paying large sums of gold to be carried through difficult content for a reward that would otherwise be unatainable). Seeing that the achievement system, as well as Holidays in general, are definitely designed to appeal to the general population (commonly referred to as "casuals"), this option is definitely not a good solution to this problem.

3. Make it a race. The first X number of people that complete Y quest get reward Z. Think AQ40 gate opening and the Scarab Lord title, or the (now removed) first X class/race to lvl80 titles. I don't think I need to explain why this is a very bad option.

Contrary to popular belief, make it incredibly time consuming is not a valid option. It may temporarily make an item really rare, but eventually the item becomes just as common as any other. This would be contradictory to Blizzard's stated position that they think the achievement should be relatively unique. Not to mention that it would not work within a short time limit (like a Holiday).

Of all the options listed above, for a casual-friendly holiday, I personally believe that Blizzard chose the best one based on their desire to keep the achievement accessible to everyone, and yet rare. If you've got a better method... please enlighten me (and Blizzard).

Kisirani

#4 - Oct. 21, 2008, 7:46 a.m.

Thank you, Libzee. :)

Edit to add: I understand completely that people want to get the achievement, the title, and the mount, and therefore the concept of an achievement that may be intended to be uncommon is not a popular one. I wish everyone the best of luck; while I realize I may have frustrated you today with my answers, but I simply wanted it known that everything brought forth as a concern regarding the Sinister Calling achievement was discussed and the achievement was judged reasonable. We'd read the feedback and we understand where you're coming from but the achievement is still right about where we want it to be in terms of being able to complete it.

That isn't to say we won't make tweaks to the availability of the items in question, but chance will still play a part if we do. We have no intent of making the items use a quest, token, or other guaranteed system to achieve.

We will also be reading feedback concerning the event and achievements in the days ahead, of course.

Kisirani

#22 - Oct. 21, 2008, 7:58 a.m.

Q u o t e:

Yep, only respond to the people who agree with you, don't go head to head with the mass who doesn't agree with you.

I did that quite a bit earlier in the day. The explanation by the OP was a sound one, so I thought I'd give it a nod.

I greatly appreciate the feedback you and others are giving, but giving the feedback does not necessarily mean we must acquiesce to your desires. We're working from the larger picture of how common we'd like the achievements to be, and it's only natural you'd prefer it to be more common than it is.

Kisirani

#36 - Oct. 21, 2008, 8:07 p.m.

No, I understand completely that the cause of the outcry is the chance involved in completing the achievement. That's why we upped the drop rates significantly from last year. If the Squashling drop had remained as it was last year, it would be in the same realm as A Mask For All Occasions.

I understand that people would much rather have the title be 100% guaranteed. I've read the threads. I comprehend the concern, I truly do.

Kisirani

#41 - Oct. 21, 2008, 8:09 p.m.

Q u o t e:
May I make a request, lengthen the duration of the mask from 7 days to 12 days or w/e time we have left of the event, I'd kinda like to try to complete a mask for all occasions.

This isn't necessary to complete it. Once a mask enters your inventory, that mask is checked off; you can then delete it if you so choose and it will remain complete in your achievement checklist.

Kisirani

#55 - Oct. 21, 2008, 8:13 p.m.

Q u o t e:

So in essence, you understand that we aren't enjoying the system as it is now, but Blizzard has no plans to change it because you're happy with the way it works on your end?

We understand that there is a group who are dissatisfied with the chance involved in completing the meta-achievements, but the original poster explained the concept of why the chance is in place, hence my reply to this thread. Ultimately, there's a disagreement in how common this aforementioned group believes it should be and how common we believe it should be. I respect that you disagree with our decisions on the matter, but considering the drop rate and the data revolving around how many have completed the achievement thus far, it still seems about right where we want it.

EDIT: I also understand the concern about player behavior, and that's something we'll talk about.

Kisirani

#63 - Oct. 21, 2008, 8:20 p.m.

Let's keep this thread civil. I've been deleting trolling responses on both sides, but I'd prefer if I didn't have to do that.

Kisirani

#77 - Oct. 21, 2008, 8:28 p.m.

Q u o t e:

If you have already accepted and are fine with the fact that the majority of people are most likely gonna have to keep trying for it next year to complete it and maybe the year after that too, then what made the mask one so different? It could also be completed next year if you do not get it this time.

It's not as rare as you make it out to be, provided an individual does it the average times per day (5) over the course of the event. That said, based on that metric, the A Mask For All Occasions is far, far more difficult to get probability-wise, hence why it is not a part of the meta-achievement. There's a line, essentially. The mask achievement was over that line, whereas Sinister Calling is not.

EDIT: Ooglop, the Horseman's mount is ten times as rare as the Squashling, in terms of pure numbers. You've just had a very strange run of personal luck.

Kisirani

#203 - Oct. 21, 2008, 10:09 a.m.

Yes, we've been talking about achievements in world events moving forward as well. We're not ignoring the future.

Kisirani

#289 - Oct. 21, 2008, 5:38 p.m.

Q u o t e:
How can five times a day every day be the average when its also the maximum?

You know the answer to this. ;) You can be present on one character for more than five summons a day, and while I completely understand the concern present regarding player behavior and we will discuss it (the root problem, not GMs actioning it, as one poster thought I meant), many of the people doing such are doing so with the support of their guild and friends.

Kisirani

#297 - Oct. 21, 2008, 5:43 p.m.

In that statement I was speaking about people who were striving for the achievement, and those people are doing at least 5 summons a day, but we're not judging by the extreme end. You're free to disagree with me, of course. :)

Kisirani

#301 - Oct. 21, 2008, 5:46 p.m.

I'll say that your personal experience has been unlucky, Masaren. The drop rate isn't that bad. But yes, all told, we're still fine with it.

Kisirani

#309 - Oct. 21, 2008, 5:49 p.m.

Q u o t e:
The drop rate is horrid for an actual average player as opposed to the mythical average player with a whole guild willing to give up their chance at the drop to back them up.

Now hold on, Kujako. I said the average was 5 summons a day, and that people doing more were the extreme end. Let's not twist my words. ;)

And yes, we're basing it off that 5 summons a day average.

Kisirani

#326 - Oct. 21, 2008, 5:54 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Five is the maximum, not the average. Unless you get a bunch of people willing to be subservient to your whims.

I am going to lay this out.

An individual striving for the achievement will run it 5 times per day in an overwhelming average of the population. It is this metric that is used to balance the drop rate.

It is not the maximum. Clearly you would like it to be, but stating as such does not make it any more the case. People can run it more than five times per day.

However, going over that line falls into a smaller subset of more dedicated and extreme individuals, and that is not what we base our decisions on in terms of drop rate and average completion of the achievement.

EDIT: And yes, based on this, there will be some people who try this year and do not complete Sinister Calling.