we consume content too fast?

I think they're fixing that in MOP with optional but real slow grind of valor points over the cap.

Unless I remember my blues wrong.

You can perceive it as a grind. However, keep in mind that Mists of Pandaria also adds scenarios, pet battles, challenge modes and plenty of daily quests to do at level 90, which will definitely help in providing more content to do. And more importantly, do whatever you want to do.

04/07/2012 18:20Posted by Underlyng

Tell me. Compared to now, will the raid content be harder or easier?

The 4.3 heroic dungeons and Dragon Soul when the patch was released are a good measure to get an impression on how the content will look difficulty wise.

04/07/2012 22:14Posted by Sihino

and over 3 years more than 75% of the EU playerbase have left the EU servers..

And 97% of the Internet know that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot :-)

Is any chances to see Raids that would bring back people to raid them? And i simply put off Lfr.

LFR is not going away, if that's what you're asking for, it's actually useful for players that can't be part of a raiding guild (or don't want, for whatever reason) to experience the content.

And new raid content will be appealing to raiders, surely. Will it be appealing to your friends/guildmates? Well, that's really up to them. There's a number of (personal) factors that no amount of raid content will change.

05/07/2012 10:07Posted by Darkangle

f the nerfs are "so that everyone gets to experience the instance", wasn't LFR for those purposes and normal mode?

Not really. Nerfing content doesn't help the same spectrum of players. Players that are struggling on, let's say, Heroic Hagara, will eventually give up if they can't progress further. The only question in that case is, how long before they stop? Might be a month, or six, but if they can't progress, they'll stop. That's the crowd that those nerfs are aimed at.

Moving forward, the dev team is thinking about using a similar system as the one currently in place for Dragon Soul. A single debuff on monsters for a raid tier that's been out for several months.

05/07/2012 10:07Posted by Darkangle

Take it as you like, I'm not attacking you, just strongly expressing my personal experiences versus my worries in the chosen path. I would like to enjoy the game I like. I really would, but you're making it hard for me. Currently the only thing keeping me here are the social bonds, but guess what, they feel the same and are leaving one by one too, effectively eliminating my need to log.

I'm not taking it as an attack, no worries. I understand you're trying to express yourself. Honestly, I'm unsure what's the message you're trying to give, though. You become bored of the content because it's not hard enough for you? (seeing that you've progressed nicely on Heroic DS). If that's the case, I can tell you that the devs are hard at work to roll patches faster than we've done in the past.

I also have the feeling (though I'm probably wrong) that some players are underestimating the true value of challenge modes (not necessarily your case). In those modes you're fighting against the clock, so that will always be challenging (you can always try to do it faster).

But the issue is not exactly the lack of content, but the increasingly lower difficulty of it.
Ever since WotLK raids get nerfed to the ground so that a very large part of the raiders, skilled or not so, can kill the what should be hardest boss of an expansion. wowprogress.com reports that as of today over 10% of all raid guilds have downed heroic Madness.

I'm pretty sure at least several hardcore guilds kinda agreed that Sinestra was as difficulty as HC LK, and Ragnaros was harder, so I wouldn't call that an "increasingly lower difficulty".

You mention 10% of all raid guilds have downed Heroic Madness. There's no reasonable argument to call that a "very large" number.

05/07/2012 11:28Posted by Mirun

So the developers want the game really to become a "wait and you will breath on the heroic boss and he'll be dead" kind of game.

If that's how you want to play the game, sure. If it's not, but someone else wants to, how does it affect you? How exactly does what others do in this game impact you?

LFR should be, the place for the easy kills, and it is.
Normal should be place for the top 90%+ of the community, and it is
Hardmode should be the place for the top 10%, wich isn't anymore so and gets so less and less.

So, basically, you're saying that rather than providing an ongoing challenge that you can slowly overcome (or rapidly, depending on your skill), the devs should rather focus on preventing 90% of the players from seeing a difficulty mode. That's one of the best ways I can think of to frustrate a lot of people.

05/07/2012 11:28Posted by Mirun

So in the end, making the game to easy, will achieve the oposite; less people will see the content, becuase there will simply be less people playing the game.

This is an argument I've seen thrown around plenty of times. Yet, Wrath of the Lich King, which seems to be considered by many hardcore players as the easiest expansion ever, had some of the highest participation rates in dungeons and raids we've ever seen. And, ironically enough, also had some of the hardest encounters to date (I remember the threads and headaches that some hardcore guilds were having at the time with Lich King and Putricide Heroic, as well as Yogg-Saron +0, Sarth 3D, just to name a few).

05/07/2012 11:46Posted by Skoddraei

Then explain to me why LFR drops epics, when it is for players "to experience the content", specificly better than Firelands-epics as well as the first raids in MoP (yes, that has been datamined).

LFR was meant for players that can't participate in raiding guilds either because they don't have the chunks of time required for that, or don't enjoy (for whatever reason) being part of those guilds. Let's not mix that with "experiencing the content". Experiencing the content doesn't mean getting a tourist visit around the place.

I was happy when Blizzard announced LFR, because people finally could be able to experience the content without getting loot they clearly don't deserve.
However, as it is now, they DO get loot they don't deserve.

If they can clear LFR they do. They're already getting lower ilvl gear compared to normal and Heroic.

05/07/2012 11:57Posted by Karlotte

You can also ask yourself how long the game will remain interesting when you can do everything with your eyes closed.

Feel free to go and show us how you and your guildmates kill Spine Heroic with your eyes closed, please :-)

You wouldn't be able to. Even if the content is easy for you at a given point, it was challenging before, and it's just natural that it becomes even easier over time once you've mastered it. But there are players that are still progressing through Dragon Soul and, believe it or not, are actually being challenged by the content in its current form.

1. Why are you replacing content instead of adding content?
2. Why do you believe 3 difficulties of a same raid (a final one at that!) provide people with ample opportunities? I am a casual 6/8 heroic raider and, sorry, I srsly cba to enter DS again unless someone puts a gun to my head
in before: "Go heroic". For those ... oh .. two extra abilities in the same fight? sorry, that's not right.
in before: "but, but, but try Spine hc!" sorry, I would be ashamed to have spine heroic achieve when someone cares to check what date I did it and sees the resounding 25% nerf. I'd rather feel good about 5/8 hc at 0% debuff. and 6/8 hc at 5% debuff.
3. Why are you nerfing heroic content thereby stripping it of any and all sense of achievement?
4. how do you believe leaving people to dwell on the <epic> final fight with DW's fingernails for entire 6 months is right or even remotely fair?

1. No content is being replaced. Giving players a mean to gear up through alternate means to get up to speed is something we've been doing since the TBC days. If you want to go and finish Firelands, you can go and do it (and completing Glory of the Firelands Raider is no easy task, even if it doesn't require you to kill Heroic Ragnaros).
2. You mention you would be "ashamed" if someone sees you killed Spine Heroic at the 25% nerf. First, why do you care what some random person on the internet thinks about you? I'd rather put at the front my own enjoyment. And if, for one reason or another, I can't kill Spine before the 25% debuff, well, big deal (as long as I'm having fun).
3. I've explained that here.
4. Actually, the developers agree that Spine is harder than Madness in most aspects. In theory, the concept of the encounter was great, but in practice it's kind of just a tentacle fight. They're trying to deliver an awesome encounter with the Sha of Fear at the Terrace of Endless Spring.

As for the time itself, it's not different than how long other end-of-expansion bosses have been available for.

Again, dishing indirectly on disabled people isn't cool.

And if you want to make such statements (yes, I'm annoyed) then feel free to first youtube/google and see there's actually quite a few doing this.

And no, we're not special little snowflakes...

I'm not dishing on disabled people (that'd be quite inappropriate), and I believe you're reading too much into the piece you've quoted. If you've felt offended, my sincere apologies. At no point I've meant to be offensive to anyone.

05/07/2012 12:48Posted by Norielle

Have some faith in the playerbase instead of just brushing us off as violent trolls who don't come here to make change.

I don't need to have faith in the playerbase because they've shown me time and time again that they can do amazing things. And if I had the feeling the people posting here are violent trolls I wouldn't bother posting. I can assure you that.

8 months is not how long content lasts. Content lasts approximately 5 months, i assure you. Noone wants to play in the same 8 boss nerfed raid instance for more than 5 months, And since you don't expect us to run through BWD or BOT anymore, the content lasts even less. Nobody goes BWD or BOT to gear up anymore. Barely anyone goes FL to gear up anymore. The way you are designing content to last is atrocious!

You may say that we are still having a challenge to defeat all the bosses in the DS on HC, Well newsflash for you blizzard, not every guild is interested in pushing every single heroic boss. Alot of players just want to experience the content on a normal difficulty.

But the fact is that there's content to be run if you've not killed Madness Heroic. If you're voluntarily stopping because of whatever reason, there isn't much I can do to help fight that feeling. As I've said, the dev team is hard at work trying to put out patches faster, but that doesn't fix current issues. It's a situation that's always happened at the end of expansions so far.

05/07/2012 12:53Posted by Makimura

I know many of you want purple ribbons for 16th place, but that is not how it works. This game is about progression and epeen, not pet battles and LFR

It is for you, sure. You can't pretend it is the same for other players. There'll surely be players that will get immense fun of pet battles, and there are players out there enjoying the LFR system.

05/07/2012 13:05Posted by Merridur

Why should players who just do LFR have better gear than those that cleared 7/7 normal Firelands

Why not? At some point you just need to move on. By that reasoning, we could go extreme and ask, well, why should players who just buy a new expansion have better gear than those that completed Thunderfury in Molten Core 7 years ago?

I'd like to ask,
aren't normal modes (yes I'm leaving LFR out of this) supposed to be there to experience the content? Aren't they aimed at those raids who don't have the means to do heroics?
does every raid that can down a few heroic bosses have to reach and kill Madness heroic?
doesn't the content nerf itself slightly already due to the increasing average ilvl of a raid every week?
why, in the first place, did you implement the nerfs that early if there hasn't been any content for months, and won't be until MoP?
if you'd like to achieve that as many raids as possible get to see the endgame content, why isn't there more incentive to do lower tiers? While outdated, they're still part of the endgame and harder than LFR, so shouldn't they be more rewarding than LFR and just farming VP/JP?

There's something about "experiencing the content" that doesn't feel right. The idea behind the different difficulties is not to let people that want a challenge to go straight to Heroic and have everyone else chilling in Normal (or LFR). The reason there's normal and Heroic is as simple as the fact the playerbase skills are hugely different between the most hardcore players and new fresh raiders. By having normal and Heroic you can progress through the raid tier until you get to that point where you actually start struggling. For you that might be Heroic Blackhorn, for another player, it might be normal Spine.

As for the other points, if players want to experience lower tiers, they can do at any point.

That then what should be the very hardest boss of the expasion, Heroic Madness, is killed by 10%+ of all guilds, is just to much. It should be 5%, or even less. Just like Naxx was back in Vanilla, and HC Lich King during WotLK. Don't forget, the whole deal with the end boss on hardmode is that beyond that you can not progress, and not being able to progress for many months makes the game a bore

So, 5% of the players (in your opinion) should be able to kill the last end boss on Heroic, yet, at the same time, you also say that not being able to progress for many months make the game boring. Do you realize that that's basically what would happen to that 95% of players when, eventually, get to the end boss?

05/07/2012 13:16Posted by Mirun

HC LK was one of if not the hardest bosses out there. Only a few people downed him without the debuff. So basicly the whole dungeon was balanced around the fact that that debuff was there....

Not at all. And in fact, HC LK was defeated without the debuff not much longer after the initial kill. If memory serves me right, by Paragon.

05/07/2012 13:46Posted by Jensk

If I don't get any response (which is fine), I suppose this still can be used as some sort of feedback and reflection on my part on Cataclysm

There's too much too answer there (and some things I can't answer) but it's a very useful post, thanks for putting the time into writing it.

Yes, sadly this thread was turned in to a Q&A session and people were venting out their frustration on Draztal.

I'm more than happy to provide answers where I can. Some things can only be answered by the devs though, but we also take care of getting those questions their way so we can get the answers you asked for (even if at times they're not what you'd like to read).

EDIT: Corrected the name of the guild that killed LK HC at 0%.

The artificial 3 tiered approach to raiding was already made to let everyone have a go at their respective tier (and to cut production costs of having to cater for 3 different dungeons for the same purpose). Why blend it further and force the way of thinking in that many more should do HC?

What is the reasoning behind this?

As I said before, people stop playing when they can't progress, with the exception of the truly hardcore and dedicated raiders, that will keep pushing until the brick wall has been destroyed. So, the best guilds out there will get first to the end and finish it, but a progressive debuff system also allows everyone a chance at getting through the content at the pace they can (putting a side example, if someone likes football, would that person enjoy it if he were allowed to play only at the same level of performance that Rooney, Ronaldo, Messi, etc do?, probably not, however he'd surely have plenty of fun playing with his local team, or just with his friends, this is kind of the same, not everyone can perform at the absolute maximum level).

Keep in mind that there're plenty of players that love raiding and start on normal hoping to eventually get to Heroic and keep progressing. Since we've already said that these players will stop playing when they get stuck, the developers don't feel it's right to tell them that they should just be happy to have made it that far and stay in the LFR, or normal just because they get to see the content.

We've got from world first guilds that can pull amazing strategies to players that don't have the time for more than LFR with everyone else in between them. That people needs something to keep them willing to progress.

05/07/2012 17:11Posted by Mirun

This is also the case for me, I don't like it when my hard work gets nullified because some random gets the same rewards for doing nerfed content because he waited for a few months to get a higher debuff.

Someone else getting the same piece of gear you have hardly nullifies your work. It really makes as much sense as feeling offended because other players are getting to level 85 after you did, and with heirlooms, and with guildies helping that person reach level 85 (see where I'm going?).

The important question (at least in my opinion) should be, did you have fun working to get that piece of gear? If that's a yes, it'd expect then that the experience getting there was worth it :-)

05/07/2012 19:21Posted by Mirun

If that would be so, then why is TBC concidered the best expansion for raiders, even with TK and Sunwell being so hard as they were? Loads of guilds could not complete SW, heck most guilds did not even raid at that level.

For the most hardcore raiders, yeah, sure it was fun. For the players that were somewhere behind (either Tier 5 or Tier 6 content, heck, even at Brutallus), things weren't exactly bright. I still remember the many threads we were seeing back then about Kael'thas and Lady Vashj breaking guilds...

05/07/2012 19:21Posted by Mirun

Kael'thas, Muru, Kil'Jaeden, those fights were so hard they were massive brick walls, yet people liked it that way. And I bet it is because they gave a good challenge to even the most hardcore raiders. Thats what HM bosses should be, and should stay at -> hard, challenging and rewarding fights.

I understand this is the reasoning from the perspective of hardcore players, but there're many more players that for whatever reason don't really have the same level of skill. It doesn't take long for those players to go from fun to the frustration of realizing that, at their current skill level, they're facing an impossible challenge.

And the rewards have to more then a green "Herioc" tag for killing a nerfed boss. It has to be mostly the feeling that killing that boss really takes effort and the relieve of killing that boss after your 20th+ try on your own skills and not by a 5% debuff crutch must be whats driving you forward. Being rewarded for killing a weaker boss doesn't feel compelling to a lot of people.

To many other players, knowing that the boss is now 5% weaker, is compelling because it means they can have an easier time on things that were blocking them and will start progressing on the encounter.

05/07/2012 19:53Posted by Wtbinfo

So why is blizzard willing to take the achievement and prestige out of heroics. Trying to act like we're just being greedy for wanting heroics to MEAN something to down is pathetic. (which exactly how this blue is sounding)

Achievements aren't being removed from heroics, so that argument is rather moot. But if you really think that John Doe cares about what you did in a video game, you should really think again. Of course it means something to you, just don't pretend it means something for everyone, because that's not the case even in-game.

05/07/2012 19:53Posted by Wtbinfo

If you really think everyone needs to 'have room to move up or they'll get bored and quit' then screw it. Why have content that's hard at all - lets release 20 raid bosses all with a straight 25% nerf straight away so no one gets their feelings hurt that they can't progress.

There's a massive difference between having an appropriate challenge, hitting a brick wall, and steamrolling everything. If there's absolutly no challenge on any of the bosses, that would be as boring as hitting a raid full of Heroic Ragnaros for the players that don't have the skill to perform at that level. There're players that, very probably, could take on even harder incarnations of the bosses we've all seen. There're players that need a 5/10% debuff to have an adequate challenge, and there're players as well that even with the 30% debuff still struggle to advance.

And all of them are progressing at their own pace.

06/07/2012 00:06Posted by Kaiyne

But now, all hardcore/semi-hardcore guilds have 8/8 DS HC

Can you prove that with data?. For some reason it's relatively common to have this perception that, because something is easier than before, everyone is getting it, and it's not true. The cold reality is that there're many raiding guilds that won't even see Spine Heroic before Mists of Pandaria is released (the skill difference between those guilds and the Top 200 in the world is THAT big).

06/07/2012 00:09Posted by Tamiko

the real funny thing is that if a player couldnt get past a certain hc in tbc he tried harder, joined other groups and got better gear,

I know for many hardcore players, changing groups is not only acceptable, but pretty much mandatory. "If your current guild can't clear this, leave that sorry lot behind and aim for the sky". The reality is that many enjoy raiding with their friends and they'd rather stay there than join a guild that has Madness Heroic on farm status since Day 1, even if they can.

06/07/2012 00:23Posted by Verwoerd

May I just say, I absolutely love the 3-tier system. The idea is quite brilliant indeed- I just think it needs more tweaking and balancing. That is, at what point to how much HCs should be nerfed, exactly HOW easy LFR should be, and which dungeons should be included- time will tell. My personal belief is that if most of the end content dungeons would be available in the 3 tier system, less people would complain about the "lack of content".

That's a very interesting thought, thanks for sharing it.

06/07/2012 03:22Posted by Pilsbúry

Are the Challenge Mode dungeouns exactly the same as the Heroic Mode counterparts?

Although Jito has already responded to this (here), I'll add that Challenge mode is actually tuned harder than Heroic, and in some cases there might be even extra pulls or mechanics that aren't present on Heroic.

06/07/2012 10:34Posted by Házza

p.s I haven't really thought about the jump in the tier gear, e.g from 12 -> 13. Even if the ilevel of the tier is on par with dungeon/rep reward level like I suggested, if the set bonus is more powerful than the previous, then LFR starts to feel more mandatory again. Any ideas on how this could be possibly adressed?

I think we should accept that guilds pushing for world firsts will do anything in their hands to get an edge. And it doesn't sound fair to punish the rest of the playerbase, preventing them from improving the gear of their characters, just because some guilds might get and edge on their race to world first.

06/07/2012 11:12Posted by Severnaya

There is hardly any reason to continue the conversation: your logic and line of thought seem as incomprehensible, eerie and strange as I am sure the logic of us above posters seems to you.

Which part of the text you've quoted looks incomprehensible to you?

06/07/2012 11:34Posted by Severnaya

You are basically saying that when confronted with a challenge the player must receive help to push past it.

Some players do need that help to progress on certain encounters. It's not necessarily a must, but it's true that there're players out there that wouldn't be able to kill a certain boss before the debuff reaches a certain percentage (if you kill a boss just with 5%, then you were pretty close already, by all means).

The <must> part terrifies me. In terms of player satisfaction your keyword is "progression", my keyword is "challenge". Sorry, seems we're worlds apart :(

Both of them are the same. Progression brings a new challenge to overcome (unless you're at the end of the road). I'd say many players raid for the challenge and the experience, because they expect to overcome it eventually. That's were the line between progression and challenge might become distorted, as you start going through the different levels of skill our players have.

While to you a boss that is now 20% weaker than it was back then might look as an absolute non-challenge, the truth is that is still challenging for the players that are now progressing on it. So, the "challenge" is still there, and that's why, in that sense, for those players the debuff is almost a "must". If it wasn't for it, they wouldn't have anything else to do after defeating what's available to their own level of skill.

06/07/2012 11:34Posted by Severnaya

I am well aware that I am a tiny insignificant player compared to the millions playing wow; I am only trying to provide my own feedback which I believe is both my duty and right as a customer, as insignificant as I may be.

If you can put your thoughts in a clear and concise manner (which you clearly do), then it's not insignificant. We may agree or disagree, but that's it.

06/07/2012 11:28Posted by Altamiro

How then can you, Draztal, assume that you know that "many other players" see nerfs as compelling because they now have an easier time? That's just an assumption aswell isn't it?

It's as much of an assumption as it is saying that many hardcore raiders find super difficult bosses compelling. I mean, it's just my way of trying to put into words that there's a segment of players that like the fact that, eventually, that boss they can't even think of killing right now, will be weaker enough to consider attempting it, and perhaps, succeeding at overcoming it.

I'd be crazy to not say that there're many hardcore raiders that find compelling fighting bosses that are absolutely insane for a huge majority of players.

06/07/2012 14:00Posted by Scallian

You immediately solve all the issues. The people who need the nerfs, can still see the content, but get lower ilevel gear and the hardcores can play without nerfs to get their epeen gear.

So that those players can artificially feel superior to them? Isn't enough the fact that they defeated the boss without the debuff prove they're already better than them?

06/07/2012 14:00Posted by Scallian

I don't understand why this can't be implemented like this? I don't think a player that performs less should get the same rewards as a daily theorycrafting elite player. We don't pay a cleaner the same amount as a surgeon.

This is a videogame, not a job. So it's pretty hard to relate that example to this environment, honestly.

06/07/2012 14:01Posted by Sunder

Even if it was mandatory that you raid T11 content first, then T12 before you can get to T13, a lot of servers would only have one raiding guild running T13 content and wouldn't let anyone without T12 gear in.

This was happening back on the TBC days (I'll use it since it's been mentioned several times as the ideal "moment" of hardcore raiding). At some point through the BT/Hyjal/SWP cycle, in some realms guilds just started canibalizing each other, as the rest of the players just didn't have the gear, or the progression required to join them. Some guilds broke trying to defeat Brutallus, but I've always wondered how many players trying to enter those guilds, were rejected solely on the gear they had, rather than the actual skill they had, just because they were still playing catch-up to the players that had progressed more than them.

Draztal, don't you think it's a bit of a concern to sort of set the barrier really low in some things, however? I mean, I totally get the whole being accessible (I hate the word though XD) and as you can tell from my raid history I am one of those that come from a 'I used to raid but got tired of the schedules"-people for which LFR is excellent, and to a lesser degree normal mode.

However, I am greatly concerned where we are headed in general with gaming, into what seems like an environment where difficulty is not allowed to exist without a free pass, and learning curves is to be frowned upon. Failure is not an option - more or less. Don't you (and others here) feel that it's bad for both the longevity of the game, the sense of accomplishment that arises from solving things, and just general patience with the few things that should be hard will wane through this encouragement?

No, I don't think there's any concern on setting the barrier too low. I mean, anyone can play basketball, yet I know that the only thing in common I have with Michael Jordan when it comes to basketball skills is that he's also a human being.

Gaming has constantly been evolving, and it'll continue to do so for as long as this industry keeps moving. Difficulty is there, but the industry is probably moving away from punishing the players for things that, in the past, were seen as normal. Heck, back in the days even "casual" games (such as Super Mario) were punishing enough that, if you lost all your lifes (basically, the attempts at finishing the game), you had to start from scratch back in World 1-1.

Now - what can we do for Draztal. Oh yeah lets nerf the hight of the hoop and the lenght of the field to Draztal also can get the above achievements - after all Jordan wont mind - he got them first and had fun doing them ;-)

The proper equivalent to your comparison would be that, for Jordan's despair, I'd have fun playing with my friends and perhaps even winning local tournaments (thanks to them, not me, certainly). But, anyways, you're comparing the professional aspect of something anyone can do (play basketball) with a videogame. The differences in that regard, are, obviously, too big to even consider it a fair ground.

Anyways, let's leave that example up there, would be a shame if the thread went off-topic now when there're so many interesting posts going around.

My question still stands: We have 3 modes of the very same raid, 2 of these are easily accessible by the vast majority. Why is it necessary to ruin the third mode for the ones who enjoy it? It's not about elitism, it's about providing a satisfying and enjoyable experience for the hardcore players too.

The "why should we ruin this for the hardcore" bit has been explained several posts ago (and in multiple ocasions).

However, there's something this hardcore/casual attitude that hasn't been tackled at length on this thread. (Note: this is a bit of a rant, just my personal, and probably crazy, opinion.)

Perhaps we should find a definition of what's a "hardcore" and a "casual" player (Hint: You'll probably have an easier time predicting the lottery numbers) that the community can agree on. It's an incredible tricky question. If we go by the "classic definition" (is there even one?) of the term, a hardcore player would be any person deeply interested in a game, usually with a very high level of play and understanding, and capable of devoting plenty of time to it.

These days, I've seen it all, from players playing 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, claiming they're casual, to players playing 3 hours a day, 2 days a week, claiming they're hardcore. It obviously can't be that way for everyone. (And truth be told, in most cases I've seen the "casual" or "hardcore" word attached depending on which one would favour the argument that was being presented).

If we go by this sort of "classic definition", then it's very clear who's "hardcore" and who's not. And some people will be very close to that definition, but not close enough. Either because you can't devote enough time (which is completely fine), or because your group doesn't have that level of skill (which, again, is completely fine too).

If we go by that "classic definition" of the term, then we could assume that hardcore players completed the raid relatively quick after the initial Heroic Madness kill and were not affected at all by the debuff.

So, to me, the real question would be "where do we stop considering players hardcore"? But that's a debate that would probably never end...

The point was that a lot of people(and thats just my claim) that perhaps dont fit the classic definition of hardcore(since they cant devote a million hours in a few weeks) feel that they were effectively(dont start the "turn the Aspect-buff off" discusion again please - it has been covered) robbed of the opportunity to complete the unnerfed content!

Your answer to this group is to get classic hardcore or accept the conditions as they are?

My answer to that group is that they can turn the debuff off.

The answer to that is that they can't because of the realm race (or whichever), but in that case, at least to me, it sounds like the interest of that group doesn't lie on the challenge itself, as much as on finishing ahead of others (which is probably just as fun for some people).

As long as the possibility to turn off the debuff exists, noone is being "robbed" of anything. The challenge is still there, if you and your guildmates want to do it.

Post limit increased.
Please, please, keep it as civil as you've done for the most of this thread. There's plenty of useful and interesting discussions going on here and it'd be a shame to have the thread derailed at this point.

10/07/2012 09:33Posted by Ujellibrah

Players who have cleared have already beaten the challenge, put in the hours then 2-3 months later people who put in half the effort get the same reward.

If someone, months later, can clear the content in half the time the original group did, then it probably is a group that doesn't need the debuff to play at that level anyways.

A group that needs the 20% debuff to progress through Heroic Dragon Soul is not going to realistically clear it in half the time or half the effort than others did. It's really allowing them to tackle the content, not breeze through it.

Wether or not players haven't cleared Dragon Soul at this point is slightly irrelevant Ujellibrah, I'm saying this because when the nerfs started most had only just returned from Christmas holidays.., and considering it's only an 8 boss tier with a very limited loot table, 1 - 1½ month is next to no time for a proper gearing process in terms of a raid throughout put (Natural nerf through gearing to overcome a challenging boss)

From my PoV that's the only issue I have with nerfs, they are coming far to fast even when it's in increments as we've experienced this time

This is actually useful feedback (which you and others have mentioned on this thread) for the developers, thanks.

10/07/2012 10:44Posted by Bapu

I love it how Draztal categorizes you as a hardcore if you liked TBC raiding above all others. I raided 3 nights a week for 3,5 hours, without voicecom. That's miles from hardcore imo. We did not manage to kill Vashj or Kael, but for the love of God we had fun trying to.

Oh, please, not at all. I loved TBC and I was very deep into raiding back then. I've actually mentioned what I think a hardcore player would be here.

10/07/2012 10:44Posted by Bapu

When you stepped on this road, and removed attuments, our guild stopped raiding. Because we were not supposed to see MH or BT, we we're not prepared.

So, you had the chance to progress further (and actually get gear that would have helped you overcoming Vashj and Kael'thas) but you decided that, for whatever reason, you didn't belong in there, despite the removal of the attunements. That kind of self-imposed restriction is fine, sure, but I can't feel much empathy to an argument that basically says "we couldn't progress, and when you gave us the chance to do something different and progress, we still refused to take it."

10/07/2012 10:44Posted by Bapu

Watched some documentary about raiding a while back. They described raiding as a giant jigsaw puzzle you're trying to solve with 9/24 like minded people, by putting the right pieces on the right places. With blanket nerfs, the solving the puzzle part has vanished. You solve the puzzle by slamming the pieces where ever you please, even if they dont fit. By time, the pieces break down and fit where ever you slam them. That's not how you solve a puzzle. That's not how you overcome a mechanic, which frankly arent all that hard in DS.

The debuff only makes things easier, it doesn't get rid of any mechanics, and you can't ignore them either.

10/07/2012 10:44Posted by Bapu

Heroic modes are supposed to test your skills. It's a !@#$ed up world where we are heading if your not supposed to improve yourself. Just like demanding Rooney, Messi or Ronaldo to play x % worse just so that Mike from next door can play with them in the WC finals.

Players improve every time, some will improve more than others, but there's always something to learn when you're progressing through encounters.

10/07/2012 10:44Posted by Bapu

Ps. How on earth can you call Hagara HC a roadblock?

It's a roadblock for the guilds stuck on that boss (others may be stuck on Yor'sahj, and others may be stuck on Blackhorn, you probably get the point).

10/07/2012 10:58Posted by Rilgania

No one who is taking raiding halfways seriousely needs a nerf in DS normal. Normal modes generally are too easy, like some kind of meaningless thing you do the first week after release to unlock heroic modes

It might be meaningless to you, but there're players progressing through Normal even these days, for whatever their reason is. If your guild is used to raiding in Heroic, that's great, but don't write off Normal as something that noone does other than to unlock Heroic, because, honestly, it's not true. There are players that do find a challenge in that difficulty, and actually expect at some point to move on and tackle Heroic, just as other guilds are doing now.

10/07/2012 11:03Posted by Deadweight

I bet we would've killed Rag, but reaching that amount of tries would have taken 10 months.

Honest question, do you realistically think your guild, you, and your friends, would have kept up with 10 months of straight bashing your head against Ragnaros? 10 months, 40 weeks of knowing that there's nothing new in your raid than this one boss you're seeing where you're making almost very little weekly progress. Time is a big factor here. There's a difference on keeping the willingness to tackle a challenge for 2 weeks straight until you see it fall, with keeping that same willingness during 10 months.

10/07/2012 12:43Posted by Bradx

I hope this is Valid feedback that you can use.

I said it several pages ago, but I'll repeat. Anything you can put in a concise manner, and without being demeaning to others, it's always useful (regardless of whetther the developers agree or not with that feedback). So yes, of course it's valid feedback!

11/07/2012 12:13Posted by Avalanch

Sometimes players shouldn't be able to get the BiS gear and they shouldn't complain about it, since only a few people with decent/high skill should be able to.

Why? I mean, why with objective reasons. Not because some people need to be able to brag about the awesome gear they have that noone else can but dream of acquiring.

I like the example someone gave and you decided to ignore

'We don't ask rooney, messi,... to play worse, so mike from next door can come play in the WC football'.

I ignored it because it's twisting my example just to try to make it sound unfair. Read my wording on that post. Would you enjoy being told that you can't play football because you can't perform at the level those football players do? Probably not.

The comparison to your example in WoW terms would be asking Paragon to play worse so that Mike can join their guild, which is not what I suggested. Not. even. close.

11/07/2012 13:43Posted by Rilgania

it should be worthwile to do the whole content of an expansion and not only the latest tier.

Well, it is worthwhile. If someone hasn't experienced Sinestra yet, I encourage them to do so. It's a fun encounter. Same applies for Heroic Ragnaros and his Heroic only phase.

11/07/2012 14:44Posted by Garían

No one will want to improve if they can just wait for nerfs, Jito.

Why wouldn't they want to improve? I'm actually yet to see a player in the forums saying something like "waiting for the 20% nerf before raiding!" (that it's not trolling, either).

It's one of those arguments that I've never understood. Apparently, other than you (those saying this), noone wants to improve. When in reality, what's happening, is that in most cases people have different learning curves. Some will learn and improve very quickly, and others will need much longer before reaching that same level.

12/07/2012 10:29Posted by Niënni

I would be surprised if she does because it would show a complete lack of realism.

She can, realistically, feel entitled to a Madness heroic kill. She probably knows the only thing she has to do is being capable of overcoming that encounter, which means she'll have to improve as everyone else.

12/07/2012 10:29Posted by Niënni

It's time Blizzard started treating it's customers like adults and telling them that this huge cookie jar is filled with a lot of different flavoured cookies but that due to the fact that tastes differ, and that not everyone has the same amount of time to eat cookies, some will eat more cookies and some cookies won't be to your taste.

This is kind of a good comparison to what the game offers right now. Some cookies you don't like (there're pve players that don't enjoy pvp, and vice versa), and some will eat more than the rest (World First guilds reaching the end before everyone else). But still, the same jar of cookies to everyone.

The equivalent to what some people are asking here for would be something like having a different jar of cookies that has a label saying "Sorry, this is only for people that are this cool".

16/07/2012 17:43Posted by Rayia

Casual players can't expect to get everything spoon feeded just because they pay for it tbh.

Yet you can demand content that is up to your skill level? Why? I mean, they have as much right to demand content fit to their skill level as you have to demand content at your skill level.

If one argument is valid, there's no reasonable way to say the other argument isn't just as valid (if you do, then you're basically arguing that you are more valuable than other players).

16/07/2012 20:20Posted by Isfio

Well, if he wants to do crippled boss fights in LFR, his business, but talking about it as an alternative to raiding, no. If I have no time to raid, I quit, simple as that.

That is your choice, but you can't expect nor force other people to just quit if they don't have what you consider enough time to raid.

My logic might not be 100% accurate but I believe Blizzard's is a faulty one. They say LFR is a great tool, this assumpion is purely based on fact how many people do it each week, almost everybody was doing it at launch, right? They know how many do that, but they do not know their incentives. Who knows, maybe 90% playerbase hate it and do it only for VP, who knows we will never know, right? Because in 7 years in a game we have been given no in-game feedback what we like/dislike, some sort of enquiry sheet.

Do you really think 90% of players do something they hate? I mean, 99% of the statistics on the Internet are usually made up.

16/07/2012 21:18Posted by Isfio

So now you can see my problem with statement that LFR is a great success because almost everybody is doing it, but somehow they always forget to mention that running LFR was a must for raiders if they wanted to stay competitive and for the non-raiders it is the most effective VP grind. Sure there are alternatives to VP grind, but this one is the most effective.

It wasn't a must for raiders. Sure, the most hardcore players ran it until they could get the set bonuses completed. But you need to keep in mind that these players are so dedicated and focused on the race to be the first in the world. That they'll literally take whatever they can to get an edge over their competitors.

And very often, by putting means that aren't just available to pretty much any other guild, even those that are almost as hardcore as them.

17/07/2012 07:36Posted by Mangs

The fact that my guild, who is casual as !@#$, breezed through normals on the first day of Dragon Soul release, should be proof that it is indeed way too easy.

Dragon Soul cleared on the first day of release is casual?

I'm checking WoWprogress (since it's a widely accepted site in the community to measure raid progression), out of curiosity, and here's what I've gathered:
4 guilds cleared Dragon Soul in the US on release day (and 101 on the day after)
225 cleared Dragon Soul on EU on release day.
14 guilds cleared Dragon Soul in TW on release day.
66 guilds cleared Dragon Soul on KR on release day.

Which amounts to a total of 410 guilds in the world (counting those 101 on the US that did it on the day after, otherwise, 309) clearing the raid on the respective release days of their regions. If that's casual (considering WoWprogress is tracking, by now, close to 60000 guilds), then I believe we have a serious issue measuring effort, dedication, and success, in the community.

17/07/2012 12:48Posted by Tieena

One of the things that frustrate me about you, Draztal, and probably about Blizzard as a whole, is how you're not remotely sympathetic to people who have a different idea of what is good than what Blizzard's current design direction is.

I am sympathetic. And through 81 pages of discussion, I've tried to join a discussion with those players. There're few things that have really been made clear during this thread; and many of my questions and points have either been ignored or discarded, while the thread has mostly kept going on in their reasoning about why things should go in a different direction even when questioned about how things might look from a different perspective.

17/07/2012 12:48Posted by Tieena

You could try to understand our points, yet instead you attempt to undermine us at every turn, twisting around our arguments to make it sound like we're a bunch of arrogant jerks who are only interested in being special snowflakes at the expense of other players.

Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".

And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).

17/07/2012 13:49Posted by Qtlol

But to see Wolfstabzor the worgen rogue in BoE PvP gear killing the LFR deathwing doesnt motivate me to kill DW 25 HC AT ALL.

Why? He's killing LFR Deathwing. While you're aiming to kill Deathwing on its hardest incarnation available.

So you saying "Look, I killed Heroic Deathwing! I'm good at this game!!" still stands on its own as something remarkable.

17/07/2012 13:49Posted by Qtlol

I've been against LFG and LFR since release and I think you should consider removing this.

Why would we remove something that is popular and that our developers have mentioned several times in the past that they are very happy with their popularity? This "let's punish everyone else because I don't like it" is not really an argument.

By this reasoning, let's go back to MUDs, because those were the true ways of a hardcore player, where you would even end up drawing the dungeon on paper because you weren't sure of where your character was. And you know what? That'll be good for the gamers because we just got it too easy in the 90s with all those 2D graphics and maps.

17/07/2012 13:57Posted by Tieena

Yet I (and others) have done exactly that. Many of us have tried to explain that for us, it is not about being better than "the rest", it is about a sense of accomplishment - whether that takes the form of bosses you haven't seen before in a watered down difficulty, unique-looking equipment as a reward, "graduation" into the next tier of content or simply progression at our own pace instead of the pace Blizzard artificially dictates for us. You don't tend to answer these posts at all, and if you do it is to point out how wrong we are to believe such.

I don't believe you're wrong. But all those arguments have something in common: exclusivity. And that's fine. I mean, it's a valid point and it's feedback I can pass to the developers.
However, at the end of the day, those posts still ignore what I've asked. Why is it such a big deal that other players, in a much longer amount of time, can get what you're getting now?

Why those players that can't devote as much time, or don't have as much skill as you, should be excluded of experiencing content?

17/07/2012 23:41Posted by Masztaar

Personaly I'd like you to explain why (for example) things like: the title "Hand of A'dal" doesn't exist anymore, or why the LK HC mount no longer has 100% droprate, or why the old ZG/ZA mounts are unobtainable etc when you argue that "everyone should be able to experience the same content" yet you still hand out the same reward for other vastly different content (0% vs 30% nerfed DS).

These things you mention (Hand of A'dal and Invincible's Reins) were changed when the next expansion was released. It's a different timeframe. Players could get the mount from the Lich King at the 100% droprate while the 30% buff was active in ICC, in that regard, it's the same thing with Deathwing these days.

And I'd argue that DS is not "vastly different" with a 30% debuff on. It might be much easier for you on those bosses where you didn't need that in the first place (or required something much lower), and that may allow you to do crazy things, sure, but it's still the very same place, and challenging, to other players that will need to go through the same issues you had when you were clearing that content.

The point is, when you do something while its at it's hardest you want something to show for it. You do not want "Wolfstabzor the worgen rogue in BoE PvP gear" (as someone humorously used) to have the exact same thing to show for it a few weeks after, when it was 30% easier.

It's not a "few weeks after". It's close to half a year later, which is something that needs to be put into perspective. Which by internet time measures must be like five centuries later. It doesn't mean your point isn't valid, but I do think time is a factor that it's not being properly valued, and that's a question I've yet to see an answer about. What's so terrible about a player getting something you did, half a year later?

18/07/2012 01:35Posted by Efective

But seeing that random pugs can kill THE HARDEST BOSS IN THE GAME AVAILABLE (on HC) doesn't make much sense to me.

Are you saying that random pugs can kill Deathwing on Heroic? Or am I reading this wrong?

18/07/2012 02:11Posted by Lesovaren

Don't reply to our posts and tell us we have no argument, or twist around what we're trying to say because a lot of us aren't the best at communicating. Be honest and tell it how it is.

I've never said you don't have a point in what you say (and if it looked that way, I certainly didn't mean it, at all). What I'm seeing, however, is that in many of these arguments, the fact that other players might do something you've done is something negative, yet when I'm asking why those players shouldn't do these things, the answer tends to be very vague, or something demeaning those players.

18/07/2012 03:00Posted by Lambey

i like raiding. i like challenge. but why would i take a challenging route when its faster to do it the easy way? its why i dont like LFR.

So you like challenge, but you wouldn't take the challenging route? I'm honestly missing something there, because otherwise the only possible conclusion is that in fact, you don't really like/enjoy that level of challenge, which doesn't seem to be, at all, the message you're trying to get through.

18/07/2012 10:06Posted by Leanne

Draztal, would developers consider something smaller, like a Feat of Strength, for completing the content without the buff/nerf or whatever you are introducing with T14?

I don't know, at this time, if they have any plans to do something along those lines. We'll ask them, though, and if there's any info we can share, we'll let you know :)

Draztal, please, can you answer a simple question:

Can all the arguing in this thread, the opinions expressed here, the feedback you acquired here, REALLY affect the way the game is being developed and designed? Like, if 100 players tell you that the approach to the content managing needs to be changed, does it really matter to Blizzard and will make you at least take this into CONSIDERATION and may be really make some changes in it, try to go easier on a nerfs, try to make encounter a bit more challenging and may be try to restore the actual raid progression a bit?

Thank you.

We regularly send feedback to the developers, and this topic is no exception. Now, whether this means they'll change something (or not) based on this feedback is something I just can't answer.

18/07/2012 11:18Posted by Tieena

Well, based on your answers in this thread, what worries me is that the feedback you're sending back is "these guys want to be special snowflakes" and going on about exclusivity when many of us have been trying to explain that's not what we're talking about.

If that was my view on the subject, I would have stopped posting on this thread long ago.

18/07/2012 19:45Posted by Masztaar

"Others experiencing the same content" is something I'm okay with. What I'm NOT okay with is that in the end, the hardcore players will be indistinguishable from the casual players. If everyone can or rather WILL get the same gold medal in the end if they want it, then the effort is pointless in the long run.

Achievements have the date on when you achieved it. Basically, time is a big factor there. Even if a million guilds killed Heroic Deathwing, would suddenly mean that those guilds are as good as Paragon, Stars, etc? Obviously not. That would be insane to even consider by most accounts, right?.

Yet, apparently it is a consideration when some guild does achieve it later than you did (despite noone daring to say they're as good as Paragon because they killed HC Deathwing two weeks after, at least not anyone that is considered a "sane" player).

Is your worth as a raider valued by what others achieve, or what you, by yourself, achieve?
Prestige is not doing something anyone else can't do, prestige is doing something better than anyone else and being recognized as a consequence.

18/07/2012 19:45Posted by Masztaar

You need players in this game that can be looked up to, and these players should also be looked up to, respected and rewarded by you

We "need" players that can and should be looked up to? Why exactly? What does such a player bring to the game and the rest of the community?

And I'm talking about in-game stuff, not about players out there that do amazing work on fansites in the form of guides, blog articles, videos, machinimas, etc (and in some cases those players aren't even in "top raiding guilds").

I've heard this mystical argument for quite some time now, saying that hardcore raiders actually drive playerbases (not just in this game). And the truth is that over the years, many hardcore raiders (and "well-known guilds") have left the game... and the community at large didn't even knew who they were in the first place. Sure, there were other hardcore raiders that knew who they were and were sorry about it.

19/07/2012 01:35Posted by Indidh

That's the first time in 7 years that I clear a tier of content on week one (I've always been playing with the same people in these 7 years, so, if the group has not changed, the contest has become easier).

Doesn't it make sense that, if you've been playing with the same people in these 7 years, you've actually got better at the game? The luxury of playing 7 years with the same players is that things like coordination actually happen as something "natural", and hurdles that are actual issues for other players, you can overcome much quicker.

Perhaps you don't even need to ask who's using a cooldown at a given moment because you already know who in the raid is going to take care of it. That on itself is something that many other raids don't have.

20/07/2012 00:36Posted by Scallian

I'm not a hardcore player, nor do I find myself skilled. But rewarding those that put much less time and effort into something with the same rewards as a more dedicated player, is utterly demotivating.

Alright, let's put this in a different perspective to see if you (and other players) keep up with this argument about less time and effort being equally rewarded...

*This is a fictional example*
Let's imagine that developers decided that, from now on, every Heroic boss of an expansion is only available until one guild, just one guild in the world, defeats it. The moment that happens, the Heroic mode of that boss is unavailable for everyone else until the next expansion is released.

In your own reasoning, it's only fair; they're putting way more time and effort than everyone else (hence why they'd be killing it first in the world). I'm sure there'll be people out there that'd scream "That is awesome!" at the idea of something like that.

In reality, what would happen, is that after 4-5-whatever amount of bosses they'd probably stop trying after realizing they just can't compete with that guild.

Would you be happy, in that context, with having to come one expansion later to kill those bosses when they're no longer relevant to your character? The answer is most likely: no.

However, that's exactly what has been suggested in this thread for those players that need the debuff to some degree to kill a boss much later than everyone else. They should basically contempt themselves with doing it when it's no longer relevant for them.

If the fictional case I've written before is not fair for you, doesn't that mean that what you're asking for is just as unfair? Think about it. Because both of them aim to the same: rewarding time and effort (just taken to the absolute extreme). And once you start arguing that *this time and effort* is okay, but this one is not, you're not being objective in your reasoning.

So, why do you want to force others to accept something you wouldn't in the first place? That is what you're asking for when you come up with this kind of arguments about why noone else should do something after you did it.

20/07/2012 11:15Posted by Mercus

Please for the sake of sanity of everyone who is trying to get a point across here have some understanding of what we are trying to say. The tone of the posts given is very patronizing as if we were wrong to have an opinion that differs from what seems to be the 'design orientation' at the moment, or your personal opinion.

I understand what is being said, and that's why I'm asking those questions. When some posters say that it's not fair that someone comes in with the 30% debuff and kills Heroic Madness with less time and effort, they're failing to acknowledge that some of those guilds might actually have been raiding since the patch was released (which is hardly less time and effort).

That's the kind of thing to which I want to see an objective argument as to why it's terrible that someone that is been pursuing that objective for more than half a year at this point, shouldn't get those same rewards.

:)

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topi[c/4879017939?page=94#1870

Hah, I missed that one, it's an interesting read :)

20/07/2012 11:50Posted by Tagbear

You're not going to turn around and say "Oh, man. You're right; we've been doing this wrong all along!"

Of course I won't. Because I'm not a developer, nor I can speak on their behalf.
Because that's a consideration that is not for me to make.

Maybe, Draztal, if you'd care to comment on the many, many, many posts and suggestions that have absolutely nothing to do with exclusivity instead of rehashing your same non-point over and over you'll get a better response. You complain that "we" ignore your questions, but "you" only reply to a side that barely even exists in this discussion.

In case it wasn't clear before, I've acknowledged that there've been *very* constructive posts in this thread, and I've pointed out a few of them (in reality, it's not been a few, rather I'd say most of the thread has had something interesting in one way or the other).

I realize my posts might get the point through otherwise, but honestly, this has been one of the most interesting discussions (regarding the constructive posts, of course) that I've seen in a very long time.

25/07/2012 02:18Posted by Lambey

and making it accessible isnt always a good thing. if everyone can climb mount everest, nobody will be interested in doing it. see my point?

Then, please, answer the question: How many people, provided the means for it, would climb Mount Everest if offered the chance? By your reasoning, just as much as today (because if it becomes too popular, nobody will be interested in doing it). However, I can tell you, at the very least there'd be one more person willing to climb it (myself), and I'd argue I wouldn't be the only one willing to go and climb Mount Everest if that chance was there.

You cannot possibly say, given the available information, that just because players run LFR, they enjoy LFR. There are many posts on this forum by players with over a dozen LFR Deathwing kills who say it's boring, they dislike running it and wish it weren't there.

Sorry, but you can't say, based on such a small sample, that there's a majority of people not enjoying LFR. You just can't. It isn't fun for you and for some players posting on these forums? Sure.

Even given that some players love LFR, it makes the game considerably worse for others. Unless you have a measure of these two groups and their quantifiable feelings on the matter, you cannot make the statement that more players raiding is better than less players raiding. It simply does not follow.

More players raiding is better than less players raiding. It's a simple matter of numbers. Yes, more is good.

25/07/2012 12:14Posted by Zarod

If you where somewhere in BT or Sunwell you still ran Karazhan and ZA every week to help people gearing up, it was fun.

It was fun for some. In other guilds, you almost had to beg people to go back there because they had seen the place just too many times already and didn't really have a reason to go there.

25/07/2012 14:43Posted by Wromthrax

Sample is a sample, people guess the outcome of elections based on small samples with accuracy to 0.5% all the time.

Yeah. But those samples actually take a broad range of people in. If I did a sample only on left-party minded people, my sample would say that they would win the elections with a massive landslide. It's kinda the same in this case. If you ask mostly hardcore players, of course, you'll get the impression the game's too easy (and vice versa).

25/07/2012 14:43Posted by Wromthrax

More is not better, more leads to quantity and not quality. More people having access to something without effort devalues the reward and the effort put in by others. Easy content being consumed fast is what leads to problems like what we have now, DS for 6+ months and people having nothing to do in game.

You can not judge neither what constitutes effort for other players, nor what is easy content for others. It's easy and effortless for you? Good for you, but don't make the assumption it is for everyone else, because it's not really the case. There're guilds still advancing through Heroic DS and they're actually being challenged and putting a ton of effort on it.

25/07/2012 14:43Posted by Wromthrax

Back in TBC we did run Kara/ZA for newer members that needed gear, we also ran attunements for members that needed them, it was fun, people LOVED to raid. YES, some people complained, but it was minority, same way you treat the "minority" that complains now how easy the game is.

And they went out of their own interest? Or perhaps because you had some kind of system that would reward attendance to those raids? (DKP, for instance) That was the case in some guilds. DKP (or whichever system) was in place to "encourage" raiders that didn't need anything from those places to actually login and go there (same way it was being used to ensure that raiders would appear during progression nights and not just for "farm status" bosses). They had fun with the social aspect of the game, but didn't particularly enjoy killing Shade of Aran for the 100th time.

25/07/2012 15:11Posted by Danan

've never heard of a single guild that used a DKP system for outdated content, especially not for gearing up new members. It was something you did because you wanted to be treated the same way if you were in the position of the newbie. And because you knew that it would ultimately help your guild in it's progression, which was something that actually meant something to you back then.

I saw my fair share of them back in the days. Granted, it didn't happen in my guild and the most hardcore guilds I knew back then didn't really have it for the reasons you mention.

25/07/2012 15:31Posted by Niënni

Draztal repeating over and over that there are still people progressing through DS hc is not helping my mental state either tbh.

Does it bother you that that's actually happening? That people is progressing through DS these days? Or is it something else?

25/07/2012 15:37Posted by Scallian

Or are you trying to state that the entire WoW community should wait for new content until every single player cleared Dragon Soul Heroic?

Not at all. I was curious about what he said. Nothing else.

25/07/2012 15:41Posted by Banzhe

The example is good, today's heroic raiding = Everest reduced to a pile of rubble!

The proper example would be people climbing Everest without oxygen and just by themselves (which is one of the hardest feats, if not the hardest, that exists in mountain climbing) as opposed to people that do with the use of oxygen bottles and Sherpas guiding them through the most dangerous sections of the mountain.

That's one of the things that I haven't seen many acknowledge here. There's people out there that are actually being challenged by the current difficulty of Dragon Soul.

25/07/2012 16:10Posted by Lilpain

What do you think about the fact that many of those people who are being 'challenged' by the content (by which I assume you mean that they are still progressing in heroic) are only still progressing because they started raiding months into patch 4.3?

This is not true, there're guilds that started when the patch was released, that are still progressing through Heroic Dragon Soul and being challenged along the way. As crazy as it might sound, it's true. Same way that people in Wrath of the Lich King started raiding on ICC on release day, and never got to beat Heroic Lich King.

More players raiding is better, are you !@#$ing kidding? (Pardon the language, but your really boiling blood now!)

Yes, more players seeing the content the devs have put so much time on, is a good thing. There's nothing crazy about that notion.

If your measure of success is how many people are enjoying endgame PVE content, and particularly compared to the previous endgame model where applicable, then participation numbers are not a measure of success.

So unless you have numbers to show how many players are actually enjoying WoW's PVE endgame compared to 4 years ago, -enjoying- not -participating in-, please stop repeating this point that more people 'seeing the content' is a great thing. Because you cannot substantiate it.

And you can speak on behalf of all those silent players to say they're not having fun? And by which definition of enjoyment should we go? Yours? If people go there every week, they must enjoy that activity to some degree (no, really, most people won't do something they don't enjoy).

25/07/2012 18:21Posted by Zasz

Those are not progressing, they are farming. Maybe you should look up the word "progress" in a dictionary. They have beaten the challange and their gear and constant "practise" makes it very easy for them. Maybe you should try it some day so you dont sound like a casual that never did any progress.

I'm telling you they are progressing. So, please, don't try to twist my words. They are still progressing and hoping to get to Deathwing soon. And in case you didn't realize, yes, I'm speaking about cases I actually know from firsthand experience.

As for your assumption about my casualness, thanks. I've been raiding (and still do) since 2005. And I've enjoyed raiding on every stage of the game up to now.

25/07/2012 18:58Posted by Karlotte

I am getting tired of this flawed argument. LFR is not about experiencing the content, it is about easy epics. That alone.

Not at all. It's just aimed at a different demographic. If for you it's about easy epics, that's all fine. But it certainly wasn't created with that objective in mind.

I don't know anyone who actually enjoys doing LFR, they do it because it is mandatory for their personal progression.

You don't know anyone, doesn't mean they don't exist, right?

26/07/2012 10:16Posted by Xorrhal

Why do they have to see heroic versions of the same content, without investing at least a tenth of the work of others?

Why are you assuming that it's those same players going on LFR the ones that are getting to the heroic versions now? There're players that started on normal back when the raid was released, that today are still progressing through Heroic Dragon Soul.

26/07/2012 10:16Posted by Xorrhal

Isn't heroic mode just for those who WANT to spend their time in heroic modes of current raids?

You can't just go and put players in boxes where they'll fit nicely. There're no "normal" and "heroic" raiders. There're players. Some can (and only) want to do LFR, some others just Heroic, and some others just Normal. Sure.

But there're many players that start at Normal and just keep progressing until the end, if they can make it that far. The end for them isn't at the end boss of the normal difficulty of a given tier, it is at Heroic. We already said back in the Wrath of the Lich King days that heroic (hardmode back then) bosses were considered part of your progression through each tier. And as I've mentioned on this thread several times already, the developers saw that after some time of hitting a brick wall, players will just stop trying.

The dedication and consistency to actually keep bashing themselves against a very challenging encounter for extended periods of time is something that is really exclusive to the most hardcore raiders.

It doesn't double the amount of content, thats merely an illusion. What it does is double the burnout and reduce the mystique of each raid instance. The brickwalls, as you call them, are probably nothing more than an average guild wiping a couple of times on a hc boss before reverting back to normal.

I've seen this over and over again. 95% of the so called 'raiders' in this patch have no idea what a brick wall really is. In fact if these brick walls, were real brick walls, then the content would never have been cleared without the nerf at all would it?

I assume the members of your guild are in full possession of thier faculties?

You can't pretend you know better than others. You can't really tell them they have no idea what a brick wall is. Because what it might not be to you a brick wall, for others it is. For your raid dealing with Heroic Yorsahj's Yellow+Red+Black might be insanely easy. For others, even with Bloodlust, they might struggle to clear adds and keep everyone up. And probably you won't even picture how is that possible because it was never difficult for you in the first place, but the fact is... it is for others.

Just give us one boss for every raidtier, an optional boss, but an insanely hard one (Sinestra was the right direction), only 0.05% of all Players shall be able to kill him (like PvP), only those 0.05% of all Players shall get an epic PvE title/mount and maybe some gear from this boss (like PvP) and with every new raidtier remove the title/mount rewards from the old one. Do this and you will win hundreds of thounds more subscribers.

And by which logic having a boss that is accessible only to 0.05% of all players and removing the rewards from the previous one will make hundreds of thousands more to subscribe? Do you really think that saying to a crowd of 10,000 people, that they should subscribe because only 5 of them will ever get to see this one boss, will actually look appealing to them?

26/07/2012 15:22Posted by Monkylord

Than why do you do it for PvP?

I think you're mixing content with rewards. There's no content that is available only to 0.5% of the PVP players. There are rewards for them. And while it's not an exact comparison (to my knowledge) we have Realm First! achievements as well on the PVE side of things which are just as exclusive rewards as those titles.

26/07/2012 15:24Posted by Shandz

If they are motivated, then they will work to see it. If they aren't motivated, then they don't deserve to see it. It's the same as real life : if you're not motivated to have a job or a diploma, then why on earth you should have it ?

Are you seriously comparing having a job, or a diploma (and the motivation to have those things), with defeating a virtual boss in a virtual world?

If we follow your "logic", then WHY does the Gladiator titles and mounts still exists then ? It is only reserved to 0.5% of the top best players, and they got a shiny mount and a badass title.
Please tell me how this is different from the situation you're quoting.

See the first part of this post.

26/07/2012 16:34Posted by Masztaar

Are you seriously comparing having a job, or a diploma (and the motivation to have those things), with defeating a virtual boss in a virtual world?

(putting a side example, if someone likes football, would that person enjoy it if he were allowed to play only at the same level of performance that Rooney, Ronaldo, Messi, etc do?

Apparently its only ok for you to do it?

The first post you quote is a comparison, the second one, is an analogy:
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/analogy

Not quite the same.

31/07/2012 10:10Posted by Szósz

That way, maybe some of the prestige of killing bosses pre-nerf, or on lower levels of nerf stay.

Other than world firsts, was there ever any prestige to killing a boss? (outside the guild itself achieving that kill)

Heck, even people following the race don't care who killed a boss 2nd in the world, much less 20th...

No, but they care on their own servers, even if they don't raid themselves.

It's a bit like Britain's surprise medal in the gymnastics yesterday; I don't like gymnastics so don't care about that at all. However, if one of those gymnasts lived on my street, I would be interested.

Sure, realm firsts might also have some prestige on the realm level, you're absolutely right. But as before, other than that... (and perhaps the first faction kill on the realm, as well).

31/07/2012 11:07Posted by Karlotte

Sounds like you are admitting that realm communities have been killed. By LFD and LFR.

You're reading too much into that post :-)

Actually, challenge dungeons will help bring back that realm community feeling that might be missing for some of you, as groups for those dungeons have to be manually formed.

31/07/2012 11:16Posted by Daemon

This comment alone, shows that you have no idea what is going on on realms regarding raiding.

You didn't understand my post at all. I said it very clear, outside the guild itself (which is what you mention in your post), not many players really care about who killed a boss other than world first and perhaps their realm first.

31/07/2012 11:56Posted by Banzhe

Any reason as to why we're not seeing a developer respond in this thread to some of the proposals made to revive aspects that should already be there.., but aren't due to some clear direct "features", one would think they could squeeze in a few minutes considering they have all the time in the world to reply on us forums?

These forums are for you, the players, to interact between you and discuss almost anything you want. And we're taking care of noting the feedback we can find, as in this thread, and sending it to them (which we're doing not just with this thread, also others).

31/07/2012 11:56Posted by Banzhe

It is abundantly clear to even the slowest of individuals that you have absolutely no clue as to what drives players Draztal which is quite astounding after 185 pages, and even more clear that you only serve a purpose of ridiculing what people here say.

I understand it, I honestly do. I'm a raider myself and I share some of those desires you have expressed here. But there must be a reason for it that can be based on something else than "taking something away from others" or "prestige", etc. And there've been individuals here that have spoken clearly about those reasons, and we've noted them and we've sent feedback to the devs with the most common points here.

The response quoted and the fact that you claim challenge dungeons will bring some realm community back is testament to incompetence at the highest level for reasons already highlighted many times over the past 100 pages, but I'll happily point one out for you.
If challenge modes aren't completed to a gold medal standard by a suffcient amount of characters we will see "balancing" (normal people would call it nerfs) so that you can ride the high horse claiming success just as is the case with lfr / lfd.

You're making assumptions, and judging my posts based on those assumptions. You're also forgetting that on challenge dungeons you're actually competing against the clock, and you'll be able to prove that you've been faster than everyone else.

31/07/2012 12:15Posted by Szósz

I also feel my comment was ignored. Just as the people above me stated, i dont see any facts you base your comment on regarding almost no one caring beyond world firsts, apart from a very broad and ( in my opinion ) unjustified generalization.

Well, in that case, I guess it won't take you long to show me a forum post cheering someone for the world 36th kill of Heroic Hagara, right?

31/07/2012 12:42Posted by Jacus

I think it's actually you that does not understand how much people care about those. The more I read your posts the more I think you absolutely have no clue.

Ah, but that's the thing. And that's why I'm still posting on this thread. I understand why people care so much about those. But I can't find an objective reason to back it up (I'm speaking about arguments like only a minority should see the content, etc, not the whole thread). Some concerns did have objective reasonings to back them up, and that was great. Some others can only really relate to nostalgia (wanting TBC back without mentioning the downsides it had) or wishing to retain exclusivity/prestige in a way that is demeaning to others.

31/07/2012 13:05Posted by Szósz

Are you kidding me? When i tried to give an idea, i was ignored. By Draztal too, he said world firsts matter only. That was the reply to my idea of a design change. Now, thats how much they care, in my experience.

I can't comment on your ideas. But I've certainly haven't said that world firsts are the only thing that matter. What I've said is that for the community at large, it's usually just that what's mentioned. And you can check that by yourself visiting the most popular fansites out there. You won't see them mention that X guild has been 10th in the world killing a boss.

31/07/2012 13:30Posted by Jayhoney

Both of them care immensely about what position they are inside their faction, realm and world.

Read my post again, that's not what I meant (and I even specified it on that post). Of course your guild cares about its position. People outside your guild, though, probably don't (unless they're looking for a guild to apply to) unless you're world first/realm first/country first/etc. Hopefully now what I was trying to get through makes sense? It's not about how your guildmates feel about your position.

31/07/2012 14:09Posted by Karlotte

The fact that people mention TBC has little to do with nostalgia, it has to do with the idea that there was a lot more content available back then. TBC had a certain policy when it came to progression and that policy was changed in WotLK.

A policy that had side effects that have been discussed in this thread at length. Those are the downsides that noone has really mentioned during this discussion.

There should always be ongoing competition in WoW, and something for people to aim towards, as soon as there isn't there won't be any drive to improve yourself as a player.
You tell us that we can't speak for an entire population, alright, but then don't doing it yourself telling us what we do and don't care about.

If you look at popular community tools such as wowprogress, there're always new kills being made every day, so to me that looks as ongoing competition.

31/07/2012 14:17Posted by Saphiramoon

Not gonna quote the rest of your post, but it's a spot on explanation of how gamers think and act. We are competitive by nature and we do care of our own performances, even if its no 134 in the world.

Of course, but not everyone is interested in the raid race and just want to experience the encounters at the pace they can.

31/07/2012 14:19Posted by Jayhoney

I get what you mean, but people do care if they pass another guild that was faster than them on the last tier. So your point is not entirely true. If you pass another guild they do care that someone else did that, if it makes them fall behind in the race of killing bosses first in their realm. It does work the other way around aswell, when we manage to kill something people rush fast to see if others managed to do that on the same night.

I agree with this. My post was talking about the prestige perspective specifically, which is a different one than this. Of course, if your guild advances over another in the realm rank, you'll cheer about it, and the other guild most likely will try to advance as quickly as possible to retake that position.

31/07/2012 14:25Posted by Darkangle

ou're not serious about being in a raiding guild yourself are you?

I am, as I said, I've been raiding since 2005, still do, and have no intention of stopping in Mists of Pandaria.

31/07/2012 14:25Posted by Darkangle

Do you honestly believe those sites would have such high hit numbers when people really don't care as much as you suggest? The numbers prove you wrong. Last tier though, even wowprogress was more for "who got it fastest" (on our realm) then who is furthest, which is directly reflecting on the main concern, too little content for the expected amount of time and the dilution of raiding as a whole.

Of course they care about their own progress and how they compare against them. But once you leave that specific case, people in your realm that is raiding at a different pace most likely don't really care about what your guild is doing (and care about theirs, obviously) and care about what's happening to the guilds around their same place.

31/07/2012 14:30Posted by Tieena

I'm quite frankly stunned at how it seems to be acceptable to demand nerfs and easier, simplified gameplay, but asking for a challenge is tantamount to sacrilege.

Asking for a challenge is right, and the answer is that you have that challenge there. You can turn the debuff off at any time and face those bosses without the Power of the Aspects. But that's an answer some of you don't like. And while it's fine that you don't like the answer, it's not right to say that there's no way to have content that you feel is challenging for you today.

31/07/2012 14:36Posted by Monkylord

Okay. Nobody cares what guild killed Heroic Ragnaros heroic 4th, but they will care about AoE fest speed runs? What is the point of Blizzard adding Challenge mode dungeons when competition does not matter?

You're mixing competition with prestige...

31/07/2012 14:11Posted by Sketchy

They are adding a FoS for killing heroic bosses in MoP without the nerf. One can only hope that this FoS will disappear once the next tier comes out, otherwise it's a pretty pointless feat of strength.

Yes, those feats of strentgh you mention are the "Cutting Edge" achievements that you may have seen already in some fansites. The idea the developers have right now is that these won't be available once a new raid tier is introduced.

And currently the intention of the developers is to stick with these for future raid tiers.

I have always wondered why on earth blizzard releases % based nerfs that lower the difficulty of a fight through a buff or debuff. I mean by the time the nerfs are released ppl are hardly even geared in normal gear. Wouldn’t a better way to nerf content be to up the drop chance of items in the normal version? After all items are just another way of giving players a buff. Items are supposed to be the hidden in game nerfing that happens all the time jet it seems to hold no weight anymore.
When the time comes where blizzard says ok we have to nerf a raid zone now, they could increase the drop chance of loot in normal to maybe double of what usually drops(or more) then you will gear people faster and they will then be able to enter heroics. This way you are not making normal mode irrelevant to players, your actually making it more relevant.
You buffs/nerfs will be player/guild based and more importantly it will not feel like blizzard is stepping in and dumbing down the fights for you. You still killed the fight unnerfed just like the best guilds, it just took a bit longer.

The decision to implement the debuff is driven by the data the devs have access to. They can see participation and progression and how the numbers change every week in regards to completion rate.

And that data showed them that a large number of raiders was stuck at some point in their progression for multiple weeks and participation was declining.

The developers are aware that not everyone will agree with them (which is something I'll touch a bit later on this reply), but it's important to point out that they're making informed decisions based on comprehensive stats. And those stats tend to validate their reasoning for implementing the debuff/increasing it.

As I've mentioned on this thread in the past, the most advanced raiders that either rarely encounter something they can consider a true block in their progression or can work on them for weeks perceive the debuff as a nerf to content that is already doable (which it certainly is, for them), but it's not reasonable to ask the same from the majority of casual raiding guilds that would like to progress. Those players can't really wipe for weeks or months on a given boss without eventually giving up.

The developers feel it's better, overall, to make those goals in your progression feel more attainable over time before that discouragement to keep raiding comes into play.

Actually, challenge dungeons will help bring back that realm community feeling that might be missing for some of you, as groups for those dungeons have to be manually formed.

If they remain sufficiently hard and free of nerfs.

Perhaps.[/quote]

The developers don't plan to nerf challenge dungeons. There might be cases where the dungeon itself gets a nerf across the board and that could impact on the challenge mode version as well.

These are built under a different design philosophy than raids. Just as a reminder, challenge mode does actually have additional pulls and mechanics (not based on level/rank). And the developers expect that the first attempt at them will likely take some time and players should expect to finish bronze, they don't intend to lower the bar for silver/gold over time.

Actually, challenge dungeons will help bring back that realm community feeling that might be missing for some of you, as groups for those dungeons have to be manually formed.

If they remain sufficiently hard and free of nerfs.

Perhaps.

The developers don't plan to nerf challenge dungeons. There might be cases where the dungeon itself gets a nerf across the board and that could impact on the challenge mode version as well.

These are built under a different design philosophy than raids. Just as a reminder, challenge mode does actually have additional pulls and mechanics (not based on level/rank). And the developers expect that the first attempt at them will likely take some time and players should expect to finish bronze, they don't intend to lower the bar for silver/gold over time.

Simple answer is of course that they don't know. All that stuff about devs and data is nothing but smoke and mirrors. The planned debuffs are well proclaimed months in advance for one reason only. To keep the majority of the player base subscribed through yet another carrot on a stick.

Boss too hard? "Don't worry lads and lasses it gets nerfed in two weeks time". Ah thats alright then, back to faceroll.

You ask for answers, you get them. And since you don't like them, you just conclude that it's a diversion and that you know what's truly going on. I wonder, why are you replying to the thread, then? I mean, I have the feeling that then, no matter what we say, it's a lost argument unless we say what you want to read. It certainly feels that way.

1.Will there be an achievement or are they planning an achievement for clearing all bosses of the raid on heroic without nerfs? (Cutting the Edge Heroic:<Name of the Raid> for example).

2. Will the be any title rewards from these FoS achievements or are there any plans?

Both questions have the same answer, there're no plans right now.

03/08/2012 01:23Posted by Archermit

I was really hoping that the subs topic would stay out of this thread at the risk of it getting locked.

Since you mention it, yes, if the topic changes towards that, we'll have to lock it and ask you to post in the existing thread that covers it.

03/08/2012 09:25Posted by Tieena

I think that's fair enough, but you have to agree that it is at least relevant to the topic at hand. It shouldn't usurp the main discussion though, but it bears mention and should be able to be brought up without anyone going into lockdown mode.

Fair enough, what I meant is, please don't turn it into the main topic of the thread. Makes sense now? :-)

lets take a look at this schedule shall we?

September 25: MoP launches
October 2: Mogu'shan Vaults (normal) opens
October 7: Mogu'shan Vaults (LFR) opens, those who cleared normal Vaults can access heroic mode
October 30: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (normal) open, with Terrace only accessible by clearing Heart
November 6: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (LFR) open; queuing for Terrace requires clearing Heart. Those who cleared normal Heart can access heroic Heart, same for Terrace.

as my son (Lambey) pointed out a number of times, releasing LFR this early into a patch means content gets done on week 2 its out.
personally me AND my son feel the schedule needs to be adjusted to the following:

September 25: MoP launches
October 2: Mogu'shan Vaults (normal) opens
October 7: those who cleared normal Vaults can access heroic mode
October 30: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (normal) open, with Terrace only accessible by clearing Heart. LFR difficulty for Mogu'shan Vaults opens.
November 6: Those who cleared normal Heart can access heroic Heart, same for Terrace.
November 27: Lfr for Heart Opens.
December 11: Lfr for Terrace Opens.

This means that even a month later, the content has NOT been burnt out by the casual gamers. it also allows raiders to feel somewhat superior as they are seeing content others arent, while also providing incentive for players to at least TRY normal mode raids!

If others want to try and burn the content in two weeks through LFR. How is your gaming experience diminished by it? I can't honestly understand what's the big deal on people that isn't you doing something that you don't want to do. I mean, what could you possibly do when someone that is not you storms Mogu'shan Vaults on the LFR...

Also, I'll remark this:

it also allows raiders to feel somewhat superior as they are seeing content others arent

Perhaps we should just tell the devs that we should close all raids until the Top 10 guilds clear them on heroic, so that they can feel superior to everyone else as they are seeing content that you, the raiders not-as-good-as-them aren't seeing. Does it make sense?

Why does a blue poster does not know about the current state of the expansion?
That actually THERE ARE feats of strength for killing heroic bosses unnerfed in the current state of beta.
And the people I play with are greatly appreciative for this type of recognition.

By the way... How could I, a fairly casual player, know about these and an official representative person of blizzard entertainment just don't? Fascinating!

If you check my previous replies, you'll see I've mentioned the Cutting Edge feats of strength several posts ago.

03/08/2012 12:30Posted by Archermit

Again you come back to a frankly stupid and absurd statement about locking content till the top 10 guilds kill it....I mean why do you have such a problem with players doing stuff that others cannot?

Do you mean that the argument of locking "casuals" from LFR so that raiders can feel superior because they aren't doing that content is fine, but that same example applied in a higher level is wrong? Both situations are the same, just applied at a different scale.

I don't have a problem with players doing stuff that others cannot, I have a problem with proclaiming that locking others so someone can feel superior is a good thing (and regardless, what I may have problems with is irrelevant to this discussion, is not me who decides what's wrong and what's not).

03/08/2012 12:30Posted by Archermit

Have you never looked at a player in full gear beyond your skill levels or content and thought wow I want to look like that someday.

No, never. Back in the old days I remember looking at a T1 geared player, and my reaction was something along the lines of "that armor is cool, I wonder how long it'll take me before getting to reach the place where I can get that". And the only reason that particular player caught my attention was because he was playing the same class than me.

03/08/2012 12:51Posted by Thustra

For a lot of people clearing things on a higher difficulty is not content.

The developers consider the Normal-Heroic transition to be part of the raiding progression. Of course, it's your choice to decide if you want to go and deal with Heroic content or not.

03/08/2012 13:20Posted by Oxium

What most are advocating in this thread is not to remove content from casuals, it’s to ensure that their content lasts longer and that they will learn and become better from their gaming experience.

I'm quite sure that the "casuals" can handle themselves in what they want and how they want it, and they don't need parenting from "hardcore" players. And what I mean is, the goal, probably, is having fun, right?

If that's the goal, then it's probably best to worry about how you can have fun yourself, and point out the flaws there, point out what doesn't let you have fun, without factoring in what other players do. That's something we can send to the developers. But judging how others should have fun is certainly not going to get us anywhere.

03/08/2012 15:06Posted by Darkangle

But parently by nerfing is different somehow?

The debuff is a design decission made by the developers based on the data they have. In the other hand, the players that say how the game should be for others only have their opinion. And opinions are great, as long as you don't try to turn them into facts.

03/08/2012 15:06Posted by Darkangle

Loads of people are trying here, including me, but somehow you seem hellbent on telling me that I play for gear, status and titles.

That you're playing for gear, status and titles is not a bad thing (if that is your case), the issue comes from saying that the only way those things are worth it is preventing others from getting it.

03/08/2012 15:06Posted by Darkangle

I'm not having fun by the highest tier of raiding being watered down. I'm telling you, since you are our relay to the devs and designers. Please take note of it, since your arguements are based on some kind of assumpion of pride, while it really isn't. In fact, that shows only your personal view of the matter. Take one step back and look at it more objectively.

Hopefully the Cutting Edge FoS will give a reason to you and your guildmates (if they don't share that view with you) to go and tackle the content without any debuffs.

03/08/2012 15:06Posted by Darkangle

We post because we care (I hope). Just look at how (relatively) civil this 200 page thread still is. People take it serious. Perhaps you should to. Think. Reread, and only then post.

I take it seriously, otherwise I wouldn't be posting here anymore. Actually, from this thread we've gathered useful feedback, and questions, that were forwarded to the developers.

One thing, just as an example, was that some players here pointed out they feel the Power of the Aspects kicked in too early for them. The developers are happy with the point in time at which it was introduced. The timing of each increment of the debuff is completely driven by data. When they see participation and progress declining across the board because of "brick walls" on some bosses, they introduce the nerf to encourage those players to come back and keep trying. And every time they've done it they've seen the participation in Dragon Soul increase exponentially in comparison to previous weeks.

So, with that in mind, it might be an aswer you like or one you don't. But, it is an answer (along with others we've shared) that came due to threads like this (and, as you remarked, its mostly civil tone).

06/08/2012 15:48Posted by Orcusmaximus

If blizzard actually believe LFR keeps people interested beyond 2 weeks, I am SERIOUSLY worried for the game. They must see how shallow and short spanned it is.

There's a broad spectrum of players on this game. And the LFR is interesting to some of those players, just as Heroic, soul-crushing bosses are interesting to a different set of players, and then you get everything in between. The community is way more different that what some of you think it is. Even the motivation behind each of us is entirely different in some cases. Some might raid for the loot, some might raid for the lore, others for the achievements, others for the challenge, others for the social experience of tackling content with their friends... and so on.

07/08/2012 01:09Posted by Masztaar

The only people that don't seem to understand this are either the ones entering this thread and bashing people like me for being "elitist" or a "special snowflake" without me trying to be one, and the other two that deliberately refuses to understand us / avoids the good questions / behave badly - are an MVP and the representative known as Draztal.

I'm not refusing to understand you. But I have the feeling you (and some others) won't feel I understand you until I say "Yes, you're right". I've provided ample answers on many of the topics we've touched on this thread, and I've questioned those things that looked odd to me. And in return I've gotten angry answers from some individuals that just refused to accept that perhaps there's more to consider than just their point of view.

There's no way you can say I'm refusing to understand this topic when I've posted in this thread over 60 times already.

07/08/2012 12:35Posted by Zellviren

You've simply painted the view of this spurious group of "other players" (which nobody has seen any real evidence of) and completely sidelined those of opposing view.

Quite a few have actually posted on this thread. And there's no "opposing view". This isn't a fight. My replies have just tried to show the other side of the coin to the arguments being made, because there's one, and it can't be ignored.

We can argue about it until the cows come home, but that person is saying "tier 13 was wholly underwhelming and felt a lot less epic". So far, your response has been thus:

"You don't speak for everyone, lots of people who play differently to you think it's great".

Actually no, I've never written anything like that. I've said there're other players that are currently being challenged by that content, even if you aren't.

If a person is saying that T13 has been underwhelming for them (and I'm sure there're folks out there for which it has been), then I can only say that it's unfortunate it wasn't fun for him/her.

07/08/2012 12:39Posted by Tieena

For some of us - me, at least - the problem is serious enough to be gamebreaking; something must change or my interest in the game will not be sufficient enough to warrant continuing to pay for my subscription. I'd imagine that this sort of feedback - from a customer on the verge of quitting - would be extremely valuable to Blizzard.

Feedback is always valuable, but not everything that is said is useful. As unfortunate as it may sound that's the way it is. There's not much of use from saying "TBC was great, bring it back" (not saying it's your case). It's far more useful to express what you don't like, what you don't agree on with the current game philosophy and point those things out.

Some people have said they'd like attunements to be brought back, and we've already mentioned that the developers don't have any plans at the moment to bring them back. Same case, some people have asked if we can guarantee if Challenge mode dungeons won't be nerfed, and we've also provided a reply about that.

07/08/2012 12:48Posted by Lorac

As such i apreciate your presence here Draztal, i am just very sad that your perspective on the game and obviously blizzard's perspective judging on the direction the game is taking, is so far away from what it used to be and what i like.

Challenging content is there. Now you'll also have the Cutting Edge feats of strength so there's a reason to go and do content without the debuff. Furthermore, you've got bosses with heroic-only phases like Sha of Fear. Feng the Accursed also has a phase that only appears on Heroic. Then you have the Protectors of the Endless, which provide even better loot than usual if you kill Protector Kaolan last (that loot is tagged Heroic Elite for the heroic mode version, and Elite for the normal mode).

And you'll also have Challenge Dungeons. So, yeah, I understand that looking to what we're leaving behind (Dragon Soul with the Power of the Aspects debuff), it may seem like nothing challenging is lying ahead, but the fact is, there's plenty of content that will test your skills.

07/08/2012 13:16Posted by Saphiramoon

So where is our territory? The one in which lazy players don't have a right to step in? And no, I wont accept the "casuals" thing. Its not about casuals, its about players that don't want to put time and effort in, for whatever reason. I raided 9 hours per week the entire expansion and I'm done with your content for 4 months now. If that's "hardcore", I guess I don't know the meaning of hardcore.

If they are raiding and killing bosses they are putting effort and time. Ii for you that time and effort spend is not enough is a different discussion.

07/08/2012 13:16Posted by Saphiramoon

So, if you want players to accept that you understand and accept your answers, start by admitting there is a problem with the game as it is now.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having players progressing today. And the developers have their data to see that everytime they've increased the debuff the participation rate in Dragon Soul has increased exponentially in comparison to previous weeks.

And if you manage to admit there something is wrong somewhere, there might be a chance for discussion - because right now, you are talking by yourself behind a nice thick wall (well, not alone, you got Jito there to keep you company).
Maybe the problem isn't as big as we make it, but I think it still exists, which is more than you are willing to admit.

Nothing is perfect. And I believe that the fact that there're things like the Cutting Edge achievements being added, Challenge mode dungeons and more bosses with Heroic only phases (like those I've mentioned), etc, should be proof that the devs have certainly not stopped developing content for the crowd that wants a challenge.

07/08/2012 14:15Posted by Tetrach

It isn't only that. Back then you had a mountain to climb, with several smaller tops you couldn't skip. No matter when you started, the mountain would be waiting.

But if you started late, some levels of that mountain were completely barren. And actually some guilds were just feeding guilds in the upper side, as some players felt they were encouraged to jump from guild to guild climbing through the raiding progress rather than sticking with their own guild.

Regarding LFR and what some of you guys have suggested about delaying it for more than one week, here're the developers thoughts about it:

Players want to see the content. And is true that some (many?/all?) would stop running it if there was no loot. So something like not giving loot at all is not an option the devs are considering.

The reality is that LFR holds little competitive advantadge to hardcore raiders, especially in Mists of Pandaria. The most hardcore guilds will clear Mogu'shan Vaults on normal difficulty on the first week, and on the second week (when LFR will be open) they'll be able to run LFR and also Heroic. So, after a couple weeks, LFR would offer little benefit to a hardcore guild.

Regarding the delay of LFR furthen than a week, the developers feel it's unnecesarily punishing those players that aren't part of organized guilds. Even more if we keep in mind that one of the reasons to delay it more is to keep hardcore raiders from feeling obligated to run it.

One of the reasons why currently raiders (both normal and heroic) feel "forced" to do LFR is because it's possible to increase your and your guildmates chances of winning items by gaming the loot system. Since Mists of Pandaria introduces personal loot, using the system in this way won't be possible.

07/08/2012 14:47Posted by Orcusmaximus

Can you point me to this please? I am very concerned about that particular issue.

Sure, here :-)

Something I missed yesterday on my post. Regarding putting LFR on the same lockout with normal or Heroic modes:

It's something the developers may consider, but there're no immediate plans for it. There's plenty of logisitical issues they'd need to sort out first to make it function in a logical way.

i dont want LFR on the same lockout. i want it removed.

if players dont put in enough time and effort, they dont deserve to be rewarded with content.

What benefit would that bring to the game?

How do you explain to John Doe that he shouldn't even think about raiding in World of Warcraft because you feel that anyone that can't devote *this* much time to raiding just should not be allowed in? Furthermore, why would John Doe, the person that can't devote *this* much time to raid but would like to, have any interest in venturing into Azeroth?

Do you feel it's just alright to tell someone "sorry bud, you're interested on this game, but you don't have the time, go play something more fitting to you, like Solitaire"?

If you don't see anything wrong with that, then it's going to be difficult to have any kind of discussion in that topic.

Arguing for the sake of arguing. I really thought you'd "grow up" after all the anger directed twoards you but here is proof that you don't even have a standpoint.

Why are you here?

You, and a few others, really need to stop the harassing against other players and MVPs on this thread, or we'll have to start enforcing the code of coduct of these forums. Which I've tried to avoid for the most part.

You think that this falls under harassment? I'd like to know who I have harassed. I simply don't get this, how is it harassment when we are trying to have a discussion about something we all care about, infact the thing we think is the most important for the survival of this game (or at least for our continued playing) and someone, no matter if this is an MVP or any other person, comes in and argues to the point where they start arguing against themselves - sometimes even just to (seemingly) get a rise out of people?

I don't even know what to call it, and pointing this out to said player in order to NOT derail the thread so that we can keep on having this discussion is what you think falls under code of conduct?

I'm currently gobsmacked. I think you should read through every single post I've made, point out the harassment so that I can try and make sense of this.

It's probably not the best post to quote (the one I used), but I needed to remember the posters on this thread that there's a code of conduct that we all need to respect.

There've been posts far worse (with inappropriate language for these forums), and some rather aggressive posts that need to stop if we really want to have a proper discussion. The moment we start attacking individuals rather than their arguments, something is wrong.

08/08/2012 16:36Posted by Masztaar

wich by your post you seem to think I've been doing continously, even if I don't see it

I don't think noone has been doing it continuously (or they would've been banned). But this is clearly a topic many of us are passionate about it and at times the discussion gets rather heated. And while that's inevitable to some degree in this kind of threads, the attacks against individuals coming from others posters was increasing at a rate that would have lead this thread to a lock.

extra mechanics. take rogues and druids, stealth through the dungeon. take a shaman healer, use Symbosis or whatever on him / her, they get stealth. run through the dungeon and kill crap.

thats basically your extra mechanics.

Except for the fact that there're requirements through the challenge dungeons that force you, among other things, to kill a set number of creatures on the dungeon to complete the objective, so ignoring pulls won't net you anything.

Also, you want challenging content, and your answer to that challenging content is that, rather than doing it you'd just stealth through it...

Why should "bud" have similar rewards than those that dedicate alot more time into mastering the game?
Its like paying for a vacation while the next gets maybe a day less of the same vacation but has to pay alot less. I would feel like getting kicked in the balls.

Except he doesn't. Hardcore raiders have heroic titles, heroic only bosses/bosses with heroic only phases, heroic mounts, achievements for those heroic kills. "Bud" wouldn't get that on the LFR.

Curiosity:
Initially this mode appealed to me. And then it dawned. Let's say I make my A-team for this, run through it, get gold.

What reason is there to go back? In other words, what is the replay value of this extra mode (rehashed nonetheless)?

If noone on your realm ever beats your time, none. If you don't care about getting to the top of the table for that dungeon in your realm, none.

In the other hand, if you want to show that your team is simply the best, you'll probably keep going back many times, as with gear normalization there's just no other way to do it faster than through improving efficiency.

How hypocritical of you, as always.
Challenge mode's purpose is to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. That means that any way to do it is to be taken into account in order to do it asap.

If you go out of your way (not you, specifically) to ask for challenging content and speak about how much you love challenging, difficult content, but then proceed to say that you'd just skip the pulls in those dungeons, then something doesn't add up. Because in fact, what you'd be doing by skipping pulls, is making your way through difficult content by just not fighting it, which doesn't sound (at least to me) like actually wanting to face challenging content.

09/08/2012 13:33Posted by Orcusmaximus

Honestly for challenge modes I was just expecting and wanting really tough bosses/pulls. Not arcade style speed runs.

I'll reiterate it again: Challenge mode is tuned higher than Heroic, there's additional pulls and mechanics, and there's a criteria you need to fulfill (similar to Scenarios) in order to complete the challenge. In that criteria there's a number of creatures to be defeated inside that dungeon.