Mothers in Azeroth

Well look at most romances and relationships in WoW... whoever is writing these stories much have horrible luck/experience with girls.

I think you're assuming a bit much. Authors don't just simply write based on their own experiences, but based on the premise of "what if". I can't speak to what specific reasons the writers have in this regard, but I can say from my viewpoint that Azeroth is not a very forgiving or peaceful world. It's been in one upheaval after another and unfortunately, that means that things don't always turn out for the best. A writer's job is to make you feel something if they can. A spot of empathy or anger or sadness, joy, love, or triumph. Many stories throughout time (fables/fairy tales etc.) revolve around the loss of one parent or another though generally, it's in regard to the loss of a mother. It resonates with people and it fits with the harsh realities that may have been a part of society. It also serves as a catalyst very often for change within the character in question and shapes their very personality or character flaws.

Keep in mind as well that we have a team of people who work on quest and story with a variety of experiences to bring to the table.

It's also worth noting that fathers have died too. Thrall lost both of his parents. Not just his mother.

Just to provide some balanced perspective, here are the fathers and husbands that have been casualties of war:

Arthas committed patricide and killed his father Terenas Menethil.
Cairne Bloodhoof was murdered which left his son Baine to deal with fallout and pick up the pieces.
Anduin didn't just lose his mother. He had to suffer through a period in which his father was lost to him and then his surrogate father ended up becoming the Lich King.
Thrall didn't just lose his mother, he lost his father too and his adoptive father wasn't a picture of kindness. He enslaved him and tried to kill him. That will cause some father issues if nothing else will.
Garrosh was abandoned and his father wasn't exactly around to raise him, though he was an influence on him. I'm sure you recall Grom Hellscream.
Leyara lost her daughter and her husband was murdered as well. Her relationship with her father-in-law didn't exactly result in warm and fuzzy quality time together either unfortunately.
Vereesa (Windrunner) is raising twins alone now that her husband Rhonin was killed in Theramore. She's also dealing with a few sister issues.
Moira (Thaurissan) is dealing with the death of her husband and her father turning to diamond, while being a part of a new leadership.She's dealing with something many working mothers are familiar with in balancing her dedication to her son and the council I'm sure.
Suna Silentstrike is another one who has lost her husband to tragedy.

War is ugly and dirty and the stories we want to tell reflect that. It affects everyone in one way or another. We can't put every story on the forefront, but we can hope that the stories that are available convey the struggles that plague the denizens.

Actually I'm pretty sure that she is currently assisting Jaina at the Isle of Thunder. Her children (how old are they by the way) are currently home alone.

I doubt they're at home alone. ;)

Hahaha, that's cute, but its wrong.

I don't think she really cares that her father is diamond, it just means that she is closer to being the legitimate heir of Ironforge. I'm also not so sure just how 'dedicated' she is to the council.

Moira cares only about her son, everyone else (I'm imagining even the Alliance) can rot as soon as they lose their usefullness.

It's not wrong and I'm sure she does care that her father is a diamond. Currently, she has no path at all to reconciliation with her father if she wants one. She has to be dedicated to the council because if they decide it doesn't work, what happens to her son? You agree she cares about him and his future, so (to me) it seems in her and his best interest to make it genuinely work. But, it is Azeroth so who knows.

Also, since when does it not count for a wife to lose her husband? That's a bit cold.

Source? Never heard this before and it's not on his Wowpedia and wowiki pages. So for all we know you could be making this up. Either way, no relationship with his mother.

I'm not in a position in which I can "make up" things. Source is Dave Kosak. I don't work in a vacuum. ;)

I have to disagree, my well-lit associate :)

Considering that the loss of her husband was her father's fault (he sent you in to recover her afterall) and under the pretense that his daughter was mind controlled, it isn't really a stretch to assume that she goes down to her father's diamond corpse with her son just to show him his grand father, the man whose hatred for the dark irons cost him the knowledge of knowing his father.

As for the matter of the council, considering just how much trouble she went through to sabotage the binding of the 3 hammers in the short story, I feel that she will only use the council (and the alliance) only until it no longer is able to serve her or her sons survival. She'll only do as much as she has to just to preserve that.

If you'll notice, I did say she has no means to reconcile. She may have anger toward him (who wouldn't) but that doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings still somewhere for him either. And I also mentioned that she has to play a role. That role doesn't necessarily mean she has to preserve it after a certain point in time. But, who knows? Only the writers and quest designers know where that can and will go. ;)

Also of note, I'm a bit perplexed by this sort of witch hunt. There are a lot of characters within World of Warcraft that could get more time in one way or another. Everyone has their favorites. The question we wrestle with is whose story do we need to tell and when?

It's also worth mentioning that I don't see the female characters as "crazy". (Even as a female myself.) I personally love Sylvanas. If I was in her shoes, I think I'd likewise be a bit beyond angry or vengeful. I can commiserate with Jaina too. She tried... oh how she tried to be a peacemaker. But, there's only so far you can be pushed before you bite back. We all (including females) make the mistake of seeing anger or emotion in other women as a weakness or a sign that they're unstable. But they have every right to be just as perturbed as their male counterparts, which haven't exactly fared too well in the sanity department either according to many people. If you want stability, Aggra has been an example so far of someone who was able to take Thrall in hand, help him, and remain his imperturbable rock. Does she get a bit emotional? Of course. I mean, she saw her boyfriend split apart and tormented. She's not unfeeling.

Again, this is war. It is also a game. We balance between telling a compelling story and common sense for what makes the most sense for the game and its continuing story. We can't cover every character we want.

Hi Neth,

You're one of my favorite CM's, so please take this in that light. I think you're being a bit defensive here (and I also think it's being provoked by several of the posters here who need to figure out a different tactic to express their views). It's ok that some of these posters are angry about which types of characters are developed and their perception that female characters (mothers in particular here) get short shrift. I sometimes feel similarly (again, my opinion, not offering it as "fact"). But it's not your job to convince them otherwise (hence my concern at the witch hunt comment).

My points weren't meant to be defensive. I'm sorry you read it that way. That definitely wasn't my intent. ;) I'm just hoping to have a conversation and get some insights across on our end. I simply wanted to convey that while I recognize the discussion, I'm not in tune with the anger or perception that there is some malicious undertone in regard to mothers or female characters. We do have female and male designers here, so I just would hate for their work to be easily dismissed. It actually is my job to (hopefully) provide insights that may sway discussion or perception. If that doesn't work, then it's also my job to convey to the team here why that is. So, I'm trying to understand the perception and keep discussion on an even plain.

What I meant by witch hunt is simply that there are those to seem to be clinging to an incorrect perception that there is a lack of forethought or care on our end, which really isn't true.

I do also want to thank everyone who has been participating in the discussion. I'm enjoying it.

03/22/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Boomerang

Oh Neth...how I love your sweet, sweet voice of reason, you are my favorite Blue...but I gotta disagree with you here...Sylvanas IS crazy...and wow, I do NOT want to derail this thread by dropping the S-bomb on it, so let's just leave it as MY OPINION is that Sylvanas has done stuff that's so bad it can't be excused no matter how justified her anger is....and I only bring it up in the context of saying that I'd feel the same way if she were a man, I DO feel the same way about characters like Arthas and Garrosh who've gone off the deep end in similar manners.

Sylvanas, IMO, is not crazy. Tortured, yes. Feeling the crushing weight of leadership and the responsibility that comes with it, yes. But crazy? Never.

What you see as abhorrent behavior Sylvanas sees as necessary to ensure the survival of her people. She saw the destruction of the forsaken without her as she fell off ICC to her death. She could have given up on her people and given over to the fate that awaits her no matter what decision she makes. But she chose not to. She chose to fight for them.

And she sure as heck isn't going to shy away from any decisions protecting her people now, no matter the cost to the other races. And no matter how it is perceived to the Alliance in general and humans in particular.

That's what makes her my favorite character.

Nicely said. We also know she does have more emotions than just anger (or crazy to some) and has a heart (despite that she tried to deny it) when we see her sing for Lament of the Highborn. I've always viewed her as a tad more fragile than she lets on, but she doesn't dare show that fragility. I don't view her as crazy. She definitely has a method to her "madness."

But, this isn't a thread about Sylvanas necessarily. ;)

Good point about Alexstrasza too. She and other dragon aspects did raise children. I just don't think people relate to them in the same way though as the other playable races.

To be honest, I am more appalled at the lack of female leaders on both sides of the game. Yes, I know it's a game and yes I understand that at least there "are" female leaders. I just don't understand why in all story lines (including the new one with Lady Proudmore) that almost all females need a male significant other in order to be a strong female. The only one who doesn't really fit this mold is Sylvannas. And she technically can't be labeled as a female other then her form looks female.

Hrm... I don't view myself as needing a significant other in order to be a strong woman, but I do have a significant other that (I believe) helps to make me an even stronger woman. There's a difference I think in needing a significant other because they serve as a crutch, and having a significant other, because they are drawn to that person as a partner. You don't have to be forever single either to remain a strong female.

A partner isn't there to make them weaker. They're there to compliment them. I certainly don't view Tyrande as weaker for being with Malfurion. She seems to stand pretty well on her own (though I know there is a bit of controversy regarding her as well.) Again, emotion and attachment, and caring are strengths these women have. Not weaknesses. Caring for another person shouldn't be seen as such.

03/22/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Sequence

A partner isn't there to make them weaker. They're there to compliment them.

I disagree but I'm afraid I might take what you're saying out of context. I think a partner is someone that makes you stronger. That drives you, not to complete who you are, but strive towards what you want to be.

My WoW example of this would be Aggra and Thrall. Thrall wants to be a uniter and family orc. She drove him to be a better shaman because he felt he needed to be in order to achieve peace and family. She's very encouraging as shown in 4.3.

I'm editing for clarification: Partners make you want to be stronger. It's an indirect way they give you strength.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with, since you just repeated essentially my point. ;)

If this is the case (again minus Sylvannas) - then why is it that all female leaders MUST have a significant other, while male leaders don't. This is the point I was trying to get across. A female leader shouldn't have to feel that there leadership needs to be complimented by a male mate. As it is a double standard since the Male leaders in the realm do not adhere to the same rules. I guess I should have worded it better.

I'm trying to figure out which female leaders you've seen that "had" to get a mate. From what I've seen, they've progressed into relationships or desired to be in a relationship per their own doing. Just like anyone else in this world does. They may have gotten married or found a partner, but so did their male counterpart. So, are you saying the men drag the female down while the female props the male up?

Since Thrall just got married, does that exhibit that he had to get married to be a whole person? After all, he does have some impetus to produce heirs to some extent. Varian already has an heir.
Tyrande and Malfurion have been an item for a long long while. That's not a new relationship.
Jaina has been a strong leader despite some very heartbreaking and failed relationships. She keeps trying though despite her hesitancy.

You're projecting a sense of worth on them based on their marital or relationship status. There are so many things that drive people to seek out relationships that it seems dismissive to say it's all because someone said they had to because they're female.

I think what the conversation loses sight of is that each character needs to be judged on their own individual character traits and flaws. While they may have gender in common, they are still individuals and generalizing based on their gender or marital status is diminishing the character to something much too flat.

03/22/2013 02:47 PMPosted by Lithvea

Since Thrall just got married, does that exhibit that he had to get married to be a whole person?

He said in the book he was broken..and getting married help "fix" him. So yes, that's exactly what he said. If I didn't listen to it via audiobook I'd give you a page number (he was speaking to Jaina when they first met up, about how yes he saw horrific things and was broken but getting married "fixed" that).

So by your admission, he's not any different than any of the female characters who may feel the same. (Yes, I'm aware of what he said.) I'm still trying to understand how these characters having relationships with other characters is a bad thing. If anything, it seems that it could be something they both need or want in such a tumultuous world that has less to do with gender and more to do with survival.

To be fair, their relationship has shaped Malfurion as well whether he was struggling with what he felt or not. It affected his relationship with his brother too. It's a pretty pivotal portion of the story for all three of them. Also, the relationship may be an old one, but he wasn't exactly around much for them to really progress. ;) When you have such a long history with someone, it's bound to affect you more than one that doesn't have as much history to it.

*Btw... I'm enjoying playing a bit of devil's advocate since it's producing interesting thoughts and segue's. No worries about "arguing". I consider it a healthy discussion so far. And thanks Rethenn ;)

I thought some of you may like to read a (rather lengthy) post by a European counterpart who felt passionately about the discussion to start their own thread there.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7195069509

What do you think? Do you agree with their points on what Blizzard could do better? Or do you have your own ideas to add?

NETH! I have reason to believe you may have been responsible for Moira Bronzebeard's upcoming development.

Also, going to go read it now.

No. I can't take credit for that one. That's all the developers.