Limited attempts... on normal modes?

#0 - Jan. 14, 2010, 7:15 p.m.

I have no problem with the limited attempt mechanic. It worked fine in ToGC... but it was only applied to HARD mode. Normal mode Coliseum had no such feature.

I like that the fights in the new wing are "a step up" in difficulty, but having limited attempts on an "end of wing" boss on NORMAL mode doesn't make sense. The loot on these bosses is the same item level as every other boss... nothing special there. When normal modes are supposed to be the "proving grounds" for working on hard mode strategies where limited attempts ARE expected, having limited attempts on the "not so special" version of the fight seems unnecessary.

Now, I do give you credit for bumping up the attempts from 5 to 10 (since there was little to no testing done on Putricide that wasn't riddled with bugs/server downtime). But, if it won't/can't be changed for ICC, consider not putting the limited attempt mechanic on normal modes in Cataclysm. Doing so seems to be going against your "make content available to everyone". There's nothing wrong with "hard" normal mode encounters, but everyone can get them eventually if you give them the opportunities to actually do so... instead of limiting those opportunities.

Bornakk

#25 - Jan. 15, 2010, 7:05 p.m.

Q u o t e:
I have no problem with the limited attempt mechanic. It worked fine in ToGC... but it was only applied to HARD mode. Normal mode Coliseum had no such feature.

I like that the fights in the new wing are "a step up" in difficulty, but having limited attempts on an "end of wing" boss on NORMAL mode doesn't make sense. The loot on these bosses is the same item level as every other boss... nothing special there. When normal modes are supposed to be the "proving grounds" for working on hard mode strategies where limited attempts ARE expected, having limited attempts on the "not so special" version of the fight seems unnecessary.

Now, I do give you credit for bumping up the attempts from 5 to 10 (since there was little to no testing done on Putricide that wasn't riddled with bugs/server downtime). But, if it won't/can't be changed for ICC, consider not putting the limited attempt mechanic on normal modes in Cataclysm. Doing so seems to be going against your "make content available to everyone". There's nothing wrong with "hard" normal mode encounters, but everyone can get them eventually if you give them the opportunities to actually do so... instead of limiting those opportunities.

The purpose of the limited attempts is to really challenge players and we felt that was a really important aspect of Icecrown Citadel as the grand finale to the story of Wrath of the Lich King. We know that a lot of players want to get access to everything and defeat it the second it's released, but having a system like this helps provide additional challenges and for those who may not be able to overcome them, things will get easier over time through additional attempts, better gear, and eventually the buff.

Since it also relates to difficulty, I wanted to mention that you will not be required to clear the Plagueworks before entering the Crimson Hall or the Frostwing Halls. Each wing is independent and you are free to explore them in the order of your choice once they are open.

In order to be deemed worthy to face the Lich King however, all three of these wings must be cleared. In addition, Professor Putricide, Blood Queen Lana'thel, and Sindragosa must also be defeated on heroic to face the Lich King on heroic mode.

Challenges await, so good luck!

Bornakk

#33 - Jan. 15, 2010, 7:17 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Bornakk:

I don't really have strong feelings one way or the other on the limited attempts issue, but I do have a question. Could you clarify what you mean when you say that limiting the attempts available per week is intended to provide additional challenge? How specifically does this increase the level of challenge?

Thanks!

Learning and adapting strategies quickly is not something that is easy to do. Even if you read a strategy online, applying it to your raid group in one attempt and everybody understanding it right away is not easy. For those groups who can adapt quickly and not repeat mistakes, they are more likely to get the kill which is a challenge to overcome.

Bornakk

#123 - Jan. 15, 2010, 9:02 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Except that Putricide is a joke once you understand the mechanics.

The ten pull limit is an attempt to block players out for a week while they actually see the mechanics and figure out how they work to develop a response to them. Once you know what Putricide does, all challenge immediately dries up.

Again, SWP didn't need limited attempts to be challenging, so why does ICC?

Because ICC is not challenging. The artificial blocks and gates are put in to stretch out a raid that would otherwise last a month at best.

Very few people were able to get through a couple bosses in Sunwell and not many of them were able to complete it. Nerfs had to be done throughout it and then 3.0 was the big boost a lot of people needed. So far in this whole expansion we have been making things more accessible than they were in The Burning Crusade so that makes the challenges a bit different. Instead of being straight up hard and requiring days and days of pushing to overcome (like the ledge boss) it's a little more on the players to play clean and not repeat mistakes.

If these encounters are easy for you, grats, but that doesn't ignore the fact that they are a challenge for many others and there are still have a number of bosses to go along with their heroic modes.

Bornakk

#147 - Jan. 15, 2010, 9:39 p.m.

Q u o t e:

This must be where you guys are tripping then.

It was already about players needing to play clean and not repeat mistakes.

You made "normal" content so easy that it not only fails to challenge decent or good raiders, it lets them down and actually supports apathy or complacency.

Then, you have people do it again this time on hardmode for the apparent real challenge. Again, now the thrill of a first boss kill is greatly diminished and people have to trod through the zone 2 or 4 (with 10's) times!!! More thrill, fun, and such removed.

Lastly, you add in gates or attempts to really put the stress in with things like lag, disconnects, bugs and such.

Raiding used to be:

Get a drink, get on vent, get your raid setup and start crawling the dungeon with your guild, having a good time, clearing some trash, working on progress bosses, and log until next raid.

The new system has removed alot of that good ole joy from raiding.

I, as a guild and raid leader, do not feel, in any way, shape or form, more challenged in WotLK. Simply more taxed, stressed, overwhelmed, and ultimately less rewarded.

You went too far in making raiding so damned accessible, and you went to far in trying to appease the hardcore elitist side.

I know a lot of people who are much happier and much less stressed with the raiding in Wrath of the Lich King than they were in any of the dungeons before this, so your situation is not the same for everybody.

There were a lot of people unhappy with the the setup we used in The Burning Crusade since they couldn't see anything and so naturally there will be players who are unhappy with the new system since it affects them now. We are continuing to make changes to how raids are setup to try and improve things, that should be pretty clear with each raid dungeon being different in this expansion. We will see how things go in the future.