[Elemental] Consolidated Feedback

Forum Avatar
#1 - Aug. 7, 2014, 3:37 a.m.
Blizzard Post
Quick recap, please add more if need be.

Earthquake still to awkward/clunky to use.

T45 talents still weak.

T75 talent Ancestral Guidance feels over nerfed to the point of not being useful at all. However it is sadly the best of the three talents for that tree.

T100 talents still somewhat weak.

I'm still waking up so please if I missed a change or overlooked something let me know.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#137 - Aug. 19, 2014, 5:53 a.m.
Blizzard Post
Hey Eleshams. I'll start this off similarly to how I have with other specs tonight... Frustration is understandable, given the changes happening in Warlords. Lets have some constructive discussion.

First, I'd like to comment on the nerfs today. Nerfs can be troubling, I get that. But this is beta, and these nerfs are just number changes. They are not a bad thing. They're simple number reductions because your DPS was too high. DPS tuning will happen, and this is the first step in that. Especially on beta, it can be very hard to have a good sense of how you compare to other specs. And with the squish changing how numbers are perceived in general, most of you probably had no clue that you were a little overpowered, and that's fine. Let me reiterate that the goal here is for you to be on par with all of the DPS. You should be equal with everyone, from the Arcane Mage to the Destruction Warlock.

08/14/2014 02:28 AMPosted by Narwhals
1. Healing Talents need immediate love/attention. Make a decision - Either boost our Single Target to match us with other Specs, or give us our Hybrid Utility back. My use in MoP raiding revolved around the power of Shaman Utility. I'm starting to worry about my impact when the entire level 75 talent line is garbage.


Simply put, we want Elemental Shamans to be brought for their strong DPS, not their poor DPS and strong offheals. We're reducing *everyone*'s offhealing capabilities, and Shamans had some of the most of anyone.

08/14/2014 02:28 AMPosted by Narwhals
2. Level 100 Talents are filler? I'm feeling lost here about the goal to this tier. Obviously you want it to be a DPS tier but right now I see it as:

A. Shocks - always bad. B. Storm Totem - oh joy another 5 min CD that does very little damage. C. Interesting AoE Fire totem...lots of potential here but why doesn't it work with Fire Elemental?!!!

I want the talents to integrate into my rotation. I was really - really hoping that our Level 100 talents could fix the dull aspect to our rotation that is honestly...a snooze to pull off most of the time.


A. Won't be bad. Needs tuning. B. Won't be bad. Needs tuning. C. Will continue being not bad, and the bug where it doesn't work with Fire Elemental will be fixed.

08/14/2014 02:28 AMPosted by Narwhals
3. Earthquake


OK. Earthquake is a big topic, so lets go for it. Earthquake has been around for a long time, but it's been almost as long since it's actually been used significantly. And Elemental has one of the most fun, visceral, cool AoE spells in the game: Chain Lightning. So why are we trying to force Earthquake into the rotation now, instead of just cutting it? That's a totally fair question.

There are a few reasons. Chain Lightning is great, but it can also get monotonous, spamming a single button for all AoE situations, and basically nothing else. We want to add a *little* spice to that. The vast vast majority of your AoE/cleaving should still be Chain Lightning spam, and we don't want to step on that. But we think that adding one different spell every ~10sec or so adds a fine bit of texture rotation.

Another reason is that we feel like we've failed on fulfilling one aspect of the Elemental fantasy: the elements. Fire (check). Air (check, lightning falls under this). Water (that's more of Resto's thing). And Earth. Where was the Earth? Ele shamans were feeling too much like the "Fire+Lightning Wizard", and not enough of the "Master of the Elements". That led us to including Earthquake, and adding Molten Earth.

And finally, skill. Here's where we get into why it has all of those so-called "QoL problems". It may be hard to see this vision, because AoE DPS tuning hasn't happened yet, but here's our vision for Earthquake: You won't be able to use it in every situation. It'll take a lot of skill and planning to use effectively. It may even require some cooperation from your tank, depending upon the situation. When all of those criteria aren't met, it's fine, you still have Chain Lightning to fall back on, and you'll still do totally solid DPS that way, and it's incredibly easy to use, in virtually any situation. But when all of those pieces *do* line up, the payoff should be extremely strong.[i] It's an additional bonus [i]on top of your expected AoE DPS.

Don't think of it as "that spell I'm forced to use and is so hard-to-use". Think of it as "that niche spell that I sometimes get to use skillfully for great gains".
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#138 - Aug. 19, 2014, 5:53 a.m.
Blizzard Post
08/14/2014 02:28 AMPosted by Narwhals
4. Echo of the Elements - I like this move but it needs a few clarity fixes. Right now its Impact is minimal. I believe it's only Lava Burst that's affected? Maybe you can attach it to Elemental Blast and Earth Shock (Which again would make our AoE/CLeave more engaging if we could ES more often). I get the concept of wanting to make Multistrike it's own thing, but since Ele Shaman's foundations were built on Multistrike - I feel the class is losing out on what made it special. (Edit - while making this post I saw that EQ is affected by EotE. Again..I hate EQ so I could care less. Also Frost shock...but I'm focused on PvE - not PvP).

Yes, it's primarily for Lava Burst (single target) and Earthquake (AoE) in PvE. We tried having it on several other abilities, but the downsides outweighed the upsides, we found (ie, you accidentally use it on Earth Shock, when you wanted to use it on Lava Burst).

08/14/2014 02:28 AMPosted by Narwhals
5. Molten Earth - Hopefully we see tuning on this mastery to make it do more damage. Yes...It's a passive - but I like the idea of dumping a lot of my stats into mastery for progression on a Movement heavy fight. Right now though...it's a waste of stats not to mention it's secondary effect is to buff EQ (which I rather not cast).


Tuning will happen. I don't think it's far off from right, currently, though. I think it's a little weak, but not much.

08/14/2014 02:28 AMPosted by Narwhals
6. Level 45 Talents. At least Blizzard agrees that this line is not fun and weak. What's sad though...is that it makes it the 2nd of worthless talent lines for Ele Shaman in PvE. So many ideas have been thrown around I don't need to add mine, but it would be nice to see some fixes before the release.


While I'd say that it's uninteresting in PvE, not worthless, that's not exactly the point. Across the specs, many talent rows are of limited value if you focus on only a single section of the game (ie, raiding). We don't see that as a problem, as long as it's only a 1-2 per class.

As I've touched on before, we feel that the level 45 talents are functional, and not causing any problems, so have bigger fish to fry at the moment. But, we'd be interested in revisiting them at some point in the future.

I'd be happy to discuss any of these topics further, as long as we stay constructive (and pending my available time, which is quite limited, as you may be able to guess). The frustration is understandable, but please leave the hyperbole and anger and useless sarcasm and generally destructive behavior out of this. Thanks.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#153 - Aug. 19, 2014, 6:47 a.m.
Blizzard Post
08/18/2014 11:23 PMPosted by Mcbgamer
08/18/2014 10:53 PMPosted by Celestalon
Don't think of it as "that spell I'm forced to use and is so hard-to-use". Think of it as "that niche spell that I sometimes get to use skillfully for great gains".


Okay, I want an explanation on this one please. How is it still a niche skill to be used for great gains if the only way we can do damage with Chain Lightning to compete with other classes is if we use Earthquake? That doesn't sound niche at all, as a matter of fact, that sounds pretty much required.


The key is that that's exactly *not* what I said. Not using Earthquake, you'll be competitive. Earthquake is a bonus.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#155 - Aug. 19, 2014, 6:49 a.m.
Blizzard Post
SET, again, numbers aside, boring as %^-*, the simple fact that PE affects this means there is no other logical choice assuming numbers are balanced otherwise than choosing PE with this talent.


It doesn't.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#157 - Aug. 19, 2014, 6:51 a.m.
Blizzard Post
08/18/2014 11:33 PMPosted by Furah
Echo is horrible for elemental, the way it doesnt work with ascendance, the way lavasurge can overwrite the reset, the way it can proc just after casting lavaburst so u lose 2 /3 procs in the meant time... The way it's a dps loss for movement...


I think your info may be out of date. I believe we've fixed all of those interactions (and if not, we will). Additionally, I'd advise you to post constructively if you're looking for constructive discussion.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#158 - Aug. 19, 2014, 6:51 a.m.
Blizzard Post
08/18/2014 11:49 PMPosted by Slant
08/18/2014 11:47 PMPosted by Celestalon
The key is that that's exactly *not* what I said. Not using Earthquake, you'll be competitive. Earthquake is a bonus.

Current numbers don't support this; Earthquake is very high damage now and on mastery to boot. Should we expect Earthquake to be tuned down, and Chain Lightning tuned higher in upcoming patches?


Probably, yes.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#162 - Aug. 19, 2014, 6:54 a.m.
Blizzard Post
<span class="truncated">...</span>

It doesn't.


How can you say it doesnt? If PE is balanced with UF and EB alone then it is viable to pick.

If SET is balanced against shocks / magma spew alone then it is viable to pick.

Therefore for maximum output / utility, if you pick one, you should pick the other.

If they aren't balanced individually, then again, in order for either choice to be viable, u r locked in to the other??

Number tuning doesn't matter here, logic does...


Err... Did you misread what I responded to?

EDIT: For anyone just jumping to here: Primal Elementalist does not buff the damage of Storm Elemental. It only adds utility.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#163 - Aug. 19, 2014, 6:54 a.m.
Blizzard Post
08/18/2014 11:53 PMPosted by Slant
I believe this is the interaction he was talking about.

For Elemental, Echo of Elements causes the next Lava Burst cast to not incur its cooldown. But during Ascendance, Lava Burst has no cooldown. So Echo has no effect.


Echo is also not consumed during the Ascendance, so still gives you one more after the Ascendance ends.