Robert Hrouda talked about why addressing pets in dungeons is difficult: http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Patch-Discussion-2-26/page/6#post1568959 It’s worth a read.
Thumbnail synopsis: rangers are already strong in open-world PvE, and making pets more survivable in dungeons would make them stronger in open-world.
I still wish pets could somehow gain agony resistance, preferably by inheriting the master’s AR.
Hey folks, looks like someone beat me to the punch of moving the conversation over here instead of in the dungeon threads.
As for AR resistance on pets and such, know that I am actively looking into solutions to that. It’s not something we are unaware of, and it is an issue we are trying to develop solutions for. I am at scale 52 in the fractals, and pet insta-death above scale 20 is something I am acutely aware of and trying to resolve.
As for me being a PR person, that’s just not true. I’m a designer just trying to interact and talk with people. Plus I can’t imagine any company would want a mouth-piece who has as many typos, spelling errors, and grammatical nonsense as I do speaking for them.
Anyways Robert, I’m assuming there’s just technical limitations with the program when trying to apply AR to your pet? Or do you not want to do that. If so, may I ask why?
I’m of the opinion that your pet and summon should share the master’s AR. That seems like the simplest most straight-forward solution. We all agree the AR is a problem that has potential fixes, it’s just figuring out how best to fix it and making sure whatever we choose works.
Pet dodge when the Ranger dodges? Who really thinks that is a good idea?
I sure as hell do not want to be the only class forced to blow their stamina due to stupid pet AI or their inability to not get destroyed by anything and everything that isn’t a singular white level 80 mob in the open world. Okay, I exaggerate (only a bit, mind you), but my point stands.
That has to be one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard (no offense to anyone), and I can’t even believe more than one single person thinks that it is a good idea.
If you don’t mean to give offense, than don’t say things that can easily be taken with offense. Just because the idea wouldn’t solve the problem, doesn’t mean it can’t be a springboard for other ideas.
“A way to make pets dodge would be good” is what I took away from it. What if a button existed that could make your pet dodge roll, or gave it evasion for a few frames (no animation!) It could be called the “Dodge!” button, and every time I used it I could make a DBZ Abridged joke to my mates on TS.
But that doesn’t solve the problem. It’s a cool thought that I can bring up with folks, but wouldn’t solve the problem of pets in dungeons while possibly adversely affecting PvP. Making the numbers bigger doesn’t work either (trust me, we’ve tried)
We tried giving them reduced damage from AOE/attacks, and it opened up other problems – mainly that a team of 2 rangers could take on almost any boss in a dungeon by smart swapping of pets and letting the pet take aggro. It’s unfortunate, but we can’t just increase and decrease numbers until pets are perfect – we’ve tried really hard, but numbers are not going to fix pets without letting them break everything. We have to look deeper into mechanics, AI, player actions, and skills.
As much as they seem vestigial, the “attack” and “return” keybinds are really the only thing that can give the player any control, and they can be a bit unwieldy. I would recommend though that if you have never tried using those keybinds, try them out the next time you’re in a dungeon, your pet will thank you for it.
Also, I find that a ranged pet does better in dungeons. My typical pet setup for dungeons is Hyena (because having 2 knockdowns and another hyena is super good), and a Drake (almost any). I know this is contradictory to what I just said about ranged pets being good, but I use the keybinds a lot and that dramatically increases survivability when taking 2-3 hits is all you want the pet to do.
Spiders and devourers can be really good to bring because of the fact that they are ranged. Devourers have an escape from melee ability as well, and spiders have CC, which helps keep them alive while you reposition and pet-swap (or return) in a more favorable place. Tankier pets require more management, but once you get there and know how to use it (in combination with pet swap), you’ll find you’re not facing the death cooldown as often as before.
That and you can name your spiders “Cuddles” and your devourer “Citizen Snips” and get a good laugh out of people’s reactions.
I am still here and watching. I’m currently composing a list of ideas and statements from this thread to bring to our balance meetings (held multiple times per week), that I can present to at least talk about with the group.
I go to the meetings as a representative for rangers and dungeons, since I play both of those things extensively. Here’s how my list is looking so far:
Core problems: (Note: we are very aware of both of these things)
-Pet AI.
-Pet management tools
Things to investigate:
-Pets auto attacks only hitting a single target.
-On “return” command, your pet gains swiftness so it can escape out of red rings more easily.
-A button that makes your pet momentarily not take damage. A sort of “Dodge” button for you to control. This is mainly due to us making sure players know how to use their dodge-roll or damage mitigation skills, which pets don’t have, and don’t always know how to escape properly when recalled without a direct pet swap. (NOTE: This is a springboard idea for pets being able to avoid damage)
-Pet/minion AR that is shared with the master’s stats.
-More defensive pet skills.
-Vigor applied to pets turns into swiftness or protection.
-In dungeons, pet’s get more health/armor.
-Lick wounds not always working. Pet just runs back and stands on your body.
-Search and Rescue buggy
-F2 skills activating faster.
Let’s try to keep this thread focused on ranger pets
ranger weapons and bugs will certainly have their threads to be focused on, but let’s keep the discussion focused around pets to keep thoughts focused. “purity of purpose” and all that.
I’ll add Search and Rescue and lick wounds to the list.
Robert, please … PLEASE .. NOT this: – “A button that makes your pet momentarily not take damage. A sort of “Dodge” button for you to control. This is mainly due to us making sure players know how to use their dodge-roll or damage mitigation skills, which pets don’t have, and don’t always know how to escape properly when recalled without a direct pet swap.”
For the love of god, we already have enough things to juggle while fighting swarms of mobs in a dungeon ! —- I’m sure it will be fine for all the “PRO” players, but for us mere mortals – it will solve NOTHING>
I do however love this: "-In dungeons, pet’s get more health/armor. "
Ideas are springboards. I’m not saying that is what we are going to do, but it’s something I will bring up to see if the group comes up with anything. Even ideas that may not work can be a starting point for an idea that will – and often times all a good idea needs is a not-so-good idea to serve as the platform that helps it rise above the rest.
Here’s a thought I just had.
What if we made f3 use a defensive dodge skill instead of returning to the player, and we re-did the “Guard” and “Avoid Combat” button to better serve the function of “return and Heel” and “Attack and be aggro”
So it would be f1 to attack target, f2 to use special skill, f3 to use defensive ‘dodge’ skill, and our stance button would then be tweaked.
Removing the “come back” skill would mean your pet pulls even more aggro of things you don’t want anything to do with.
We already mentioned good ideas a thousand times but due to getting ignored it doesn’t get through.
The new stance modification would operate as the “return to me” whereas the attack stance would operate like it does now.
Let’s be serious in the consideration: “Return to me” currently functions the same exact way as turning your pet non-combative. The pet runs back to you to be at your side. It’s the same functionality right now, so honestly the return to me button is kind of useless with the exception it is assigned to a hotkey.
I added health and stamina bar placement just to put it on the list, but those feel like more cosmetic changes than gameplay experience altering changes. I certainly think there is a time and a place for those recommendations, but for this thread let’s just stay focused on the chore mechanics that could be improved and ways that they can be adjusted.
I like the recommendations about the f1 key being more versatile. I certainly think there is something more to be done there with it. When we talk about these things internally, I will be sure that we take a long look at all the F-key commands and see what improvements can be made. I personally favor toggles that allow you more control (what if F1 was both “attack” and “return!” that got toggled? What does that free up? Could F5 be a thing?). There are lots of options to explore.
There have been some calls for perma-stowed pets, and while I have said this in other areas I will say it again here. I don’t think we will let you perma-stow pets – the main reason being we want the player to be interacting with the pet, and the pet to be part of the identity of the player. The role of ranger is to to have a pet in our game, and with that comes a bit of extra micromanagement that comes with the package. Right now the micromanage is difficult and more tools are desired, and I honestly feel that once we make micromanaging pets easier, more responsive, and better in general that players won’t mind that they don’t have perma-stow capabilities.
I already said it once much earlier on in this thread … but I want to reiterate my respect for Robert Hrouda coming to these forums. He bascially entered the lions den.
The honest feedback and responses we are getting in this thread are great. Interaction with a dev about a core ranger mechanic … really cool.
You all have been very respectful and welcoming. I’ll try to stick around as much as I can. My only fear is not meeting expectations – not in being called names and the like.
That being said, I am a dungeon designer. I don’t do the actual class balance work – I just go to the meetings and make proposals for the folks who actually build this stuff. At the very least I can echo things being said, draft proposals based on feedback from threads like these, and try to convince folks about how much of a priority issues like these should be. My momma taught me “The squeakiest wheel gets the grease” and I hold that to be very true, and I tend to doggedly follow things that I bring up.
We’re aware of a lot of the issues with ranger pets that have been brought up here, so none of this has been surprising so far. We’re working on the core issues I listed, and have been for a while now.
I’ll admit I don’t WvW as much as I likely should. When I do though, I tend to avoid the larger battles due to culling and those pesky stealth thieves who seem to pick my Anet tag out of the crowd and proceed to stick daggers in my spine.
When I WvW, I tend to run off into areas where I can get the drop on someone who is running to an objective that is contested. Rangers are really powerful in 1v1, especially when you can get the jump on someone and have good daze\evasion. When I am caught up ikittenerg trying to push back another zerg, I tend to keep my pet in pacifist mode so it doesn’t go running off to its death.
In a 1v1-3 situation though, double hyenas and a trusty spider can be a real game changer and difference maker.
On my mesmer, with one build, I can be effective in 1v1s, small skirmishes, as well as zerg fights while my Ranger seems unable to do this. The pet dying so quickly and easily in zerg fights is one part of this.
Rangers are able to do it. Just equip a long bow, throw down a spike trap, and be mindful of your barrage and you’re going to make a big difference. A well placed barrage from 2 or 3 rangers will make rushing forward a lot less appealing to an attacking army, and when they finally do come charging in switch to axes or some other close quarters weapon and micro your pet.
I just don’t like the big battles and tend to avoid them – but longbows are pretty strong in WvW.
back on topic, fellas?
I agree. I have a habit of driving things off topic. Back to pets please!
One of the reasons why the Ranger and pet are built the way that they are, is because if we gave the ranger all the power, then the pet would have to be useless and vestigial, or everyone would claim rangers are OP. That’s one of the core reasons we can’t just increase pet attribute numbers. Without a method for avoiding damage, it also means your pet takes 4 hits in dungeons instead of only 2 or 3, so it doesn’t really solve the problem.
We have WvW reps in the balance meeting as well, so I’ll be sure to poke and prod them about ranger pets in zerg battles to get their opinions. Personally I tend to do well keeping a pet non-hostile until the zergs actually clash – then switching him to hostile and managing his target. Otherwise when I try to shoot some arrows at somebody, Cuddles the Black Widow decides it is time to charge into battle. I really don’t feel like this is a bad solution. While most people may resist it, if you want your pet to charge the front line and lead the attack, consider grabbing up the signet that makes your pet invulnerable for a few seconds.
@Swagg – that’s a lovely chart
Robert, let tell you what I think adding a pet dodge mechanic will resolve for 90% of your Ranger player base: nothing.
Like Gutbuster has stated, “Often it’s difficult enough to know exactly when you need to dodge in order to avoid some damage, with a pet dodge you’d be required to not only keep track of your own position but also your pet’s exact position which also trying to see your pet amongst all the spell graphics surrounding bosses getting nuked, seeing red circles on the floor which may be behind the boss since that’s where your pet is, camera angles etc the list goes on a bit. In addition you’d also have to hit your own dodge key as well as an additional F key or any other key bind you have.”
I agree with him whole heartedly.
Yes, without a doubt there will be a small fraction of Ranger players that will benefit from the mechanic: the “Pro” player, if you will. These people have ridiculously quick reflexes, as well a superb RIGs and a mouse with dozens of key binds they have no problem dealing with. I’m NOT talking bad about these players; hey, god bless ’em, they are the exceptions to the general rule, and they make the most of it. These tend to be your best of the best players and are often found in sPvP/tPvP.
But for the non-PRO player, adding a dodge mechanic for the pet will be an utter waste of time in dealing with the problem of Pets dying from AOE too much in dungeons —- the difference will be insignicant for the typical Ranger player who is under heavy duress from swarms of mobs, surrounded with heavy particle effects and trying to keep himself alive and contributing to the party.
Look, I’m not talking about that bottom 5 to 10% either, the folks that really have very poor reflexes and positional awareness, and who really can’t cope with the basic pace of this game. At least not in a difficult dungeon setting anyway. No, I’m referring to that big fat mass of players in the middle: also known as: the “majority” – the “average” – the “typical”.
For this group, many of the ideas being offered here will only result in the outcome stated by Shiren, “So micromanaging and resource management are the game-play being pushed by that kind of design. A lot of us play the class for the AI companion, not a micromanaged companion. Micromanaging, while increasing the skill cap (in a certain way), isn’t going to solve the problem for a lot of rangers, and for many players it takes the class in a direction they don’t want to go in.”
In essence many of the changes being proposed would transform the Ranger into a class that does not resemble the one that many people were looking for when they rolled it. Please keep this in mind as you consider the many OTHER options that exist to address pet mechanics and survivability.
Thank you.
We’re aware of that. Again part of what that list is, is a launching point for conversation and dialogue. Part of our jobs as designers is to take feedback and try to figure out the core of what is being said, and develop plans around that. I’m not saying those things are going to happen – I wish I could, but I can’t. It’s just something I can turn into a bullet point for us to address and talk about. These things take time, but I promise you I will be bringing these things up.
EDIT:
Oh, and in regards to the Jade Maw targeting pets, I made the conscious decision to allow it to target non-players. I have the ability to change that, but I prefer not to on the grounds that there is some gameplay there. My pet has made the ultimate sacrifice quite a few times while we res’d a down party members, providing groups with a much needed window to help others up and recover. I know it can be a bit frustrating if everything is going great and you’re not having any problems, but I’d much rather the pet provide a moment of relief for those struggling. I am open to debate on the subject, but that is for threads over in the dungeon forum, not here 
I’ve been updating the list with things that get brought up in here. That list is getting long! lol.
Anyways, just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for their thoughts and reactions. I have plenty to bring up in the next meeting for sure. I’ll keep lurking and updating the list as I see new things that I think are shiny and neat.
Also, thank you for the very respectful discussion. It’s always nice to be able to drop into a new thread and see polite, thoughtful, and constructive feedback.
Are we allowed to know when this next discussion is, Robert? ;-)
Today! We have them multiple times per week. I may not bring up all of the issues from the list since there are a bunch of other class things to discuss, but I’ll seed the list details multiple times throughout the coming meetings to keep it on everyone’s mind, and spend some time this weekend coming up with proposals and such so I can better guide the conversation.
PS – Robert, could you ask whoever deals with pet stats to see if the white raven (HoM) and regular raven have the same stats. Its often reported the white has less vit with no corresponding increase elsewhere.
that is something I can personally do
Both the white raven and the black raven share identical stats. There is no differences between them with the exception that one is black and one is white. Just cosmetic differences – all the numbers are the same.
EDIT/UPDATE:
Turns out there is currently a health discrepancy between the white raven and black raven – I was checking our current information for our next patch, which showed that they were the same.
Right now it is true though, they have a bit less HP. Our next patch will address and fix this.
Is this first time pets has ever been discussed? If not could we get a list of things been there done that at meetings.
We talk about anything pertaining to game balance. Yes pets have been brought up before many times.
I don’t imagine we’ll post a transcript of topics. The things we talk about are best reflected by patch notes.
btw I was wrong about my answer to the raven question. I updated my post!
robert if you already at the raven, please check the black widow spider to, it has very low health, while the other spider is 37xx he is just 13xx, make it worsT spider to use
, please take care of this cause this is my best HOM reward
Zounds! You are correct! But that was also foreseen by the designer who fixed the White Raven, so expect that to be fixed as well next patch!
Robert Hrouda, could you please weigh in on whether or not things like the in-game advantages given by having HoM pets, etc. are also on the list of “issues” for the Ranger?
I think it would be beneficial if we knew where the community and the devs were on the same page. I think it’d be beneficial to the community to know what are the sort of things we know to simply “be patient” on. For example, we know to be patient on pet AI and pets have no Agony Resist in fractals. That’s comforting to know that those are acknowledged problems and being fixed.
Well, right now the HoM pets are at a disadvantage with their health bug in that they have less, lol. When that bug is fixed in the next patch though, there will be no difference. They don’t have any increased stats or anything – they are just supposed to be skin choices.
Hello Robert,
Was wondering what was agreed upon in the last discussion and what currently is planned to change for rangers in this next patch? I realize that things may be added as you go, although at this point the team has to be working on items already just curious what they are and hoping they are more than health pool fixs for ravens etc.Thank you.
We tend not to announce these things since issues can pop up and derail us. However this next patch’s time for the balance team is mostly spoken for already. We all acknowledge the core problems that are listed, but the fix isn’t just going to be someone changing a few numbers. The issue of pet AI is being worked on, but that is nothing new either – our tech-priests have been working on that problem for a while now.
I’ll keep attention focused on ranger pets though.
Robert, this has been a wonderfully enlightening and encouraging thread to follow. Is there any chance of seeing discussions like this from devs more often regarding class issues elsewhere?
Thanks, I’m trying! As for other discussions like this, not really. I try to encourage my work mates to get on the forums more, but they are very busy – especially the balance folks. I work hard too, but I try to schedule in time to go onto the forums and interact instead of just lurk and skim topics. Also I try to take the opportunity of loading screens to steal a quick glance and see if there is anything I could post quickly in… however that doesn’t always go as planned and I end up spending too much time on the forums, lol.
As I’ve said before – I am not on the balance team… at best I can present things and harp on issues and constantly bring them up to keep them in focus, and to remind the people on the team and who make the decisions in the end that it is an issue that needs to get resolved. I’m a dungeon content designer who plays ranger at a high level, and that is why I am in the meetings, to be a representative for that sect (for lack of a better word).
This thread and my presence really isn’t damage control, otherwise I would have failed pretty hard at it in business terms. Making a visible list of issues to bring up with devs and allowing non-devs to see it isn’t exactly good damage control since it can set up high expectations, and the only reason this thread has reached the size it has (I feel) Is because I am posting in it; drawing even more attention that the topic would have garnered otherwise. So if anything my coming here has served only to shine a brighter light on the improvements needed to the ranger/pet/player dynamic (trademark).
Robert has left the ranger forums.
Nope, still loitering. I split my time between this and the dungeon forum. I am watching the feedback in this thread though
Mondays and Tuesdays are just busier days for me due to more meetings, and I get reclusive on weekends.
