Please stop with the sPvP unlocks

#5 - March 21, 2014, 1:32 a.m.

Come on guys, lets be more productive here. Saying we don’t care isn’t just wrong, it shuts down and discourages dialog between developers and players.

Don’t get me wrong, you can certainly express your opinions and frustrations, but just because we are heading in a direction you personally don’t agree with doesn’t mean we don’t care or that we are ignoring you.

Now lets get this thread back on track.

As Roy mentioned in another thread, all the current traits will remain unlocked in PvP, even for new players. It is only new traits that need to be unlocked, and you will not have to PvE to obtain them.

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I understand some of you are worried that we’re just adding stuff and ignoring existing problems. I can assure you, as I sit within earshot of the Skills and Combat team, that they are very aware of this and have no plans to ignore existing issues.

#10 - March 21, 2014, 2:09 a.m.

Olvendred.3027:

Then why make a distinction? If PvP can happily go along with players getting 12/13 traits per line, why add an extra layer of frustration and difficulty instead of giving them 13/13 traits per line? It’s obviously nothing to do with easing new players in.

If it were only an additional trait, you’d more of a have a point, but we’re introducing this system with the future in mind. I can’t speak for the Skills and Combat teams long turn plans, but I know I would be disappointed if we stopped with just these new traits.

Olvendred.3027:

Horizontal progression is a nice concept… but it’s one that I’ve never seen mentioned on the PvP forums, only the PvE ones. If you want to get more players in to PvP, somehow I don’t think keeping back build options is the way to go about it.

Horizontal progression is very common, even in PvP games. Personally, I think one of the reason’s PvP rewards seem somewhat hollow is that we have no real progression beyond looks. I think you would be hard pressed (outside one-off games like most FPS and RTSs) to find a successful game without progression. As a PvP player, I love this change (disclaimer: I had no design input) and can’t wait for the 15th.

#13 - March 21, 2014, 2:14 a.m.

Xista.7391:

So Justin just confirmed that sPvP will be vertical progression. You need to unlock abilities. I’m sorry, but unlocking new traits = vertical progression to me.

I have to disagree. If it meant more skills available to you at one time while you are playing, then yes it would be vertical, but that just isn’t the case. You get more trait choices, not more traits applied to your character.

#15 - March 21, 2014, 2:19 a.m.

sorrow.2364:

Is there at least a way to obtain those traits without spending money in PvP? For instance, back in GW1, you were able to unlock skills with factions, whose main purpose was that.

It would be great to allow players in the new reward system to be able to unlock those traits without paying gold, which can be spent in a lot of other ways (and trait isn’t exactly the way I want to spend golds on).

It could be, for instance, by paying tournament win tokens to a vendor?

I know it’s something we were discussing when we were talking about the new reward system, but I do not recall were we landed. I will bring it up with the team again. I know I’d like to see it.

#20 - March 21, 2014, 2:25 a.m.

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

#24 - March 21, 2014, 2:32 a.m.

Rubik.7192:

PvP gives us a tiny bit of coin. No matter how much you play pvp, you won’t be able to make as much as your average pveer. What’s the point in implementing “horizontal” progression when pveers can unlock the new traits multiple times faster than pvpers?

That is a valid concern, one worthy of its own thread. I should mention that this is only part of the rewards we have planned. We should have a blog post about that coming out soon™, but I’m not sure where it is in the schedule.

#28 - March 21, 2014, 2:36 a.m.

Xista.7391:

But lets say I wanted to play my friend’s spec, because it’s really good. But I can’t, because I don’t have certain traits unlocked. That to me feels really bad.

This exact scenario is on our radar, and we definitely want to make it possible. Hopefully you’ll get a better idea of what we have in mind when we talk about the new rewards system.

#32 - March 21, 2014, 2:40 a.m.

Shockwave.1230:

Did the company change their moto from “When it’s done™” to “coming out soon™”

I think it happened sometime after release. :P

#35 - March 21, 2014, 2:48 a.m.

Lord Kuru.3685:

No. If you have more options than your opponent, then you are potentially more powerful because at worst you can have the same build as him.

That isn’t the worst case scenario, you could just as well have an inferior build because you chose options that don’t work well together or with your play style. More options make coming up with good builds increasingly difficult, especially for beginners, because there are so many more things to consider and each must be weighed against alternative choices (opportunity cost.)

Lord Kuru.3685:

Plus, “barring any balance issues” is actually a big deal. You can bet these will cause balance issues (unless they’re intentionally bad like the new healing skills).

Definitely a concern, but that will mean little to new players who don’t know the current state of balance anyways.

#38 - March 21, 2014, 2:55 a.m.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

justin, could you confirm with us, that the newly unlocked traits would be account bound, once unlocked? because this is how it works for guild wars 1, once unlocked, is account wide. i expect the same in guild wars 2.

I don’t know, but I’ll bug Josh and Allie about it and see if they can get it answered on Ready Up tomorrow.

#40 - March 21, 2014, 3:01 a.m.

Lupanic.6502:

You really think if a new player is able to select from a pool of traits he is fine but if he gets 1 new trait per line he is lost? Come on.

Again, this system is forward looking. If we just unlocked the 40 new traits now, what about next time? It will always just be X more. We have to draw a line somewhere, and here is probably the best place to start.

#152 - March 21, 2014, 7:51 p.m.

EverythingEnds.4261:

snip

1. Yes, this is somewhat of a pivot on our part, but I believe we are still holding true to our philosophy because this is a horizontal progression system. Every player is still equal in potential power as it is only the range of choice that is variable between players. Though, I will admit that there is potential for mistakes that cause temporary imbalances, but this is concern that goes beyond the scope of just this system.

If you’re worried about imbalances, hold us to our word when we make balance mistakes.

2. I disagree, but I do believe I understand where you are coming from. You have to understand that different people have different values and that we can’t cater to everyone, though we certainly try to do the best job we can.

3. I do not know the current plan, but the changes you suggested would be the same in kind.

4. A legitimate concern. It would be a worthwhile to debate (in another thread) just how expensive these unlocks should be. As I understand it though, we try to tune the price by the time it takes, so that paying in gold takes just as long as obtaining it through PvE.

Do you think PvP doesn’t make enough money? That’s fine, lets talk about that in another thread.

5. Another valid point. We will be in a better place to discuss this once the details of the new reward system are announced.

#153 - March 21, 2014, 7:55 p.m.

evilapprentice.6379:

The problem here is that Anet is saying “Trust us, this will be awesome”, and Anet has set a very poor precedent for trust. Nearly every time they’ve asked for the playerbases trust, they’ve betrayed it.

I’m truly sick of Anet telling me as a player “Trust us, this is what you want”, when the vast majority of players have made it clear that No, this is NOT what we want. In fact, more often than not its the EXACT kittenING OPPOSITE of what we want. It’s like being in an abusive relationship, and I’m looking forward to getting out of it.

That isn’t aimed at you personally Justin – thanks for always taking the time to respond calmly and politely, it is appreciated – it’s just unfortunate that Anet’s position is so consistently opposite the desires of the majority of the community.

Hey, don’t worry about it. I’m sorry you feel that way. Do keep in mind that this is just one more additional progression system. This may not be exactly what you are hoping for, but it may be what someone else enjoys.

We will have more to talk about regarding rewards soon™.

#154 - March 21, 2014, 7:56 p.m.

Geniekid.2645:

unlocking a trait in PvE should also unlock it in PvP, right?

Correct. Unlocking a trait in PvE will also unlock it in PvP, and vice versa.

#155 - March 21, 2014, 8 p.m.

Jamais vu.5284:

Fallacy. That is because GW2 frankly isn’t even close to being a (s)PvP centered game, there’s very little to do and it’s very barebones, and due to that there’s only a tiny hardcore PvP scene left that plays only or mostly PvP.

This is the exact demographic you’re scaring away with changes like this.

This is not a fallacy, but I get what you are trying to say. That we only have so few competitive players because we aren’t catering to them, which in turn causes us to focus on them even less, and so on and so forth. The data just doesn’t fit your argument though. Players that play all game-modes have always vastly outnumbered PvP-only players. The trend between the two groups is nearly identical.

We can certainly do more to attract competitive players, and we plan too. We also don’t try to exclude our PvP-only players. I understand it may seem that way right now because we are trying to broaden the base with these changes.

#160 - March 21, 2014, 8:31 p.m.

Lord Kuru.3685:

…but it doesn’t matter whether you call it horizontal or vertical progression. If new players start out kitten relative to veteran players, then you are violating your former philosophy of level playing field for all.

I agree with you, but will say that it is our stated intent that this be horizontal only, which means everything new must be balanced against the existing. It is something we will need to be vigilant about.

#161 - March 21, 2014, 8:32 p.m.

Pyriall.5027:

Justin…why are there no unlocks through pvp content. Why is it always a one way street in favor of pve?

I’m all for that idea! Traits or what-have-you being only unlockable through PvP (or through coins) sounds like a great idea. Will have to mention it to the Skills and Combat team.

#164 - March 21, 2014, 8:39 p.m.

runeblade.7514:

ANet already catered to the people who wants progression in PvP, and it has been there since launch. It is called WvW. I don’t like the progression in WvW, so I rather go into sPvP instead.

A few things:
1) WvW has both vertical and horizontal progression. sPvP will never have much of what you see in WvW. That isn’t our target because it just doesn’t work for sPvP.
2) WvW isn’t there to cater to those that want a sense progression and attainment, (the whole game serves that purpose,) it’s there for those players that love grand-scale combat with large groups.
3) I hope the changes we’re introducing don’t make sPvP unenjoyable for you, but please keep in mind we have to consider a wide range of preferences and play styles.

#165 - March 21, 2014, 8:43 p.m.

clint.5681:

Do you guys honestly not think of stuff like that on your own or do you just agree to please people?

Honestly? No, I don’t think of stuff like that. I’m not a designer, and I’m not on the team that is doing this work. My work day consists of figuring out how to get all the 1s and 0s in the right places at the right time.

I can’t speak for other people, but I would not be surprised if they already have thought of this. We have a very talented bunch of people here, and they’re constantly debating ideas. It’s hard for me to keep up with it all.

#170 - March 21, 2014, 9:44 p.m.

isolatedchimp.2510:

Can you explain the reason for these unlocks to be character bound rather than account bound for PVP? In PVE I can understand but PVP I just can’t think of why you’d do it that way.

I don’t know the reasoning behind it. Personally, I would prefer account-bound unlocks, but I know there is a segment of the community that prefer character unlocks… strange as that may seem.

We do listen, so do share your thoughts (perhaps in another thread) on why you believe account-bound unlocks would be better for the game and better for players.

#176 - March 21, 2014, 10:07 p.m.

Rezz.8019:

Justin can you please explain what exactly is the point of having those unlockable traits?

Why is it so important to have that? Why do you think it is so necessary for the game?

I’m sure the designers have lots of reasons why they took this approach over others. They have to factor in other game modes, impact on the economy, new player experience, and more.

Personally, I like setting goals and working toward them. The rush of excitement when I finally reach a goal is one of the things that drives me, not just in game but in real-life as well.

So this sort of progression really gels with me. This one system (traits) by itself probably wouldn’t be enough to satiate players like myself, but when taken as part of the broader whole, its just what I’d like to see.

I understand not everyone feels this way, and I truly hope that it isn’t so much an inconvenience to those players. That said, I’m really glad they put something in for people like me.

#180 - March 21, 2014, 10:20 p.m.

DEDEN.2870:

There is no such thing as “horizontal progression” in any competitive environment. The very notion of such a concept is fundamentally naive.

Any complex system with so many interlocking mechanics will always have “better” or “best” options. Either they’re more powerful in terms of raw numbers, they’re more useful in a wider array of situations, they’re more tolerant of sloppy mechanical play, or some combination of all three.

snip…

I disagree because your argument seems to be that, essentially, that since perfection is impossible we shouldn’t even try.

The distinction between horizontal and vertical here is critical and I believe some people misunderstand it. When we say the progression is horizontal what we are really saying is that we will give our best attempt to balance things so they are approximately equal.

Yes we have and will make mistakes, but we will also try to correct those mistakes. I know people don’t like the current rate of balance changes, and we hear you, but that is another issue entirely.

Yes, high level players will find the best combinations. They already do, and have this advantage over new players. It’s one of the skills they’ve learned that makes them so effective.

DEDEN.2870:

I wouldn’t be surprised if this increased “barrier to entry” drove away many of the casual players completely. Even if it doesn’t, I expect a lot of them to become fairly bitter about being beaten by “op vet builds” or the like.

I don’t know what the outcome will be, but my intuition is that this will help. That said, we’re not so married to this idea that we wouldn’t change it if it wasn’t working. That is one of the things I love most about this company, we’re willing to shake things up to continually try to improve.