Offense vs. punishment, risk vs. reward

#1 - Sept. 18, 2013, 8:50 a.m.
Blizzard Post

As a player coming from fighting games and action games, MMO combat has always felt really bad to me.

GW2 is a bit more actiony than traditional MMOs, but I don’t think it really captures the mechanics that make fighting/action games work well.

One of the big things that’s missing from combat, is a strong connection between risk and reward, offense vs. punishment.

In a fighting game, there’s a naturally flowing tradeoff between offense and vulnerability. (To make things deeper, the most critical vulnerability is being predictable.)

I can do nothing and block all day, and I will be very safe. However, it’s impossible to defend perfectly, so eventually I will be whittled down, especially if the opponent feels no threat and is free to do whatever he wants to crack my shell.

In order to perform any sort of offense at all, I have to leave my shell and make myself open to attacks. And in order to perform more powerful or useful attacks, I often make myself more vulnerable to more powerful attacks. (eg. a heavy attack takes longer to recover, which means it can be punished with slower, heavier attacks before I can block in time.)

However, a fighting game model (where getting hit will result in your character being stunned) probably wouldn’t work in an MMO, because of multiple players on both sides.

So we need to find another way to create vulnerability when attempting offense

At the moment, there’s a pretty weak link between offense and vulnerability in this game. Even if I blow all my offensive cooldowns in my spike combo (and you dodge), I still have 2 dodges and all my defensive cooldowns available. The only exception might be Thief’s Initiative mechanic, which I will take inspiration from.


My idea: Link offense, dodging and defense together via the Endurance bar.
Basically:
- Reduce damage of autoattacks dramatically. Autoattacks are now the “jabs” of the game ie. safe and weak.

- Every weapon set has at least 2 very powerful attack skills, that require & consume one bar of endurance when used.

- Powerful defensive skills (esp. those that grant evade, invul, heal, etc) also require & consume one bar of endurance. Dodges still consume one bar.

- Increase number of endurance bars to 4.

- The most powerful attacks work similarly to Dragon’s Tooth: they are difficult to land on a mobile player. But at the same time, they also work similarly to 100 Blades: they root you in place for a while (cancellable via dodge.)

- Reduce all forms of passive healing.
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With this idea, I’m hoping to connect Reward (doing damage to the enemy) with Risk (running out of endurance and being unable to use dodges/defensive skills.)

I’m hoping for fights to slow down (less spam because your powerful attacks leave you vulnerable) but also more intense – when a mistake is made, it can be punished severely and end the fight.

This sounds like a big change that will never, ever happen, but I think the serious flaws in GW2’s half-MMO/half-Action combat cannot be resolved without some fundamental changes. I hope the designers will think courageously and deeply on these issues.

Feel free to discuss my particular suggestion, or your own thoughts on the mechanics of Risk vs. Reward in combat.

Edit: Further thoughts in this post:
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/pvp/Offense-vs-punishment-risk-vs-reward/3010633

#22 - Sept. 24, 2013, 6:22 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Excellent feedback! I’ll pass this on to the team.

Thanks for the effort!

#48 - Sept. 25, 2013, 11:20 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Maybe the mechanics don’t need to be changed in order to create the strong connection that the OP mentioned is missing.

And yes, I did pass this on. We don’t reject ideas instantly, either. Sometimes it is one idea that inspires other great ideas, which is why threads like this are great. Just because it’s a suggestion that could mean a possibly unlikely overhaul doesn’t mean you shouldn’t share it!

We really appreciate the feedback, and would like to see this conversation going with more ideas if you have them!

Thanks

#59 - Sept. 26, 2013, 5:36 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Just so you guys know:

We’re not entirely opposed to toning down auto attack damage in PvP (we could split some of the skills and leave PvE/WvW where they are, for instance). I think it’d be a great way to add more importance to the main bar skills, and, in fact, is something we used to have before ship.

There was a time in balance when #1 skills across the board were said to be “too ineffective” by many players to be used. So we made an effort to bump them up and make them more impact-full on the game, so that they didn’t feel like a waste of the #1 slot. There was also a time when most skills had higher recharges, and longer activation times/aftercasts.

From much player feedback, we found that by lowering recharges and cast times, the game FELT better for the person using skills. But, as you guys have said, sometimes it feels like you aren’t punishing by making someone waste a long-cooldown skill, or you aren’t rewarded for interrupting a powerful skill because it comes back too quickly.

Just wanted to say that we agree with you guys, but we have to balance the risk/rewards vs. how good the game feels to pay.

Thanks for all the great ideas! We’re definitely listening.