December 10th Ranger changes

#22 - Nov. 1, 2013, 5:31 p.m.

Xsorus.2507:

I’m not understanding the Enlargement change, not sure what they mean by that information.

Mighty Swap granting Might to me also is interesting.

Makes Boon Duration more interesting.

Nature Magic X – Enlargement. This trait now uses Signet of the Wild to trigger. This reduces the cooldown to 60 seconds and allow it to interact with the Signet of the Beastmaster and Signet Mastery traits.

Harro Terravos! This trait is now basically the active portion of Signet of the Wild, meaning it can be reduced with Signet Mastery and will also apply to the ranger when Signet of the Beastmaster is equipped and Might if you have Beastmaster’s Might equipped.

-Karl

#87 - Nov. 1, 2013, 8:41 p.m.

Ryan.8367:

Nike.2631:

For those not familiar, Nature Magic X – Hulk Out (pardon, Enlargement) will now give a Beastmaster’s Signet Ranger 8 second of +25% damage, +50% speed, and stability when your drop below 25% health (along with Fluffy going similarly super-seiyan) on a 60 second or potentially 48 second internal cooldown. And if you’re running that trait combo odds are good you’ve got the signet too, so you’ve got a 16 out of 48 second uptime in seriously pitched fights.

That’s got all kinds of clutch potential.

Keep in mind you still can’t stomp players while this is activated.

It’s in the works that this is changing as well, so that you’ll be able to interact with downed entities while under the signet’s active effects.

Edit: clarification :P

#229 - Nov. 4, 2013, 10:54 a.m.

Some ranger discussion.

Natural Vigor
Starting here because I think it requires the most discussion. This, simply put, was a wildly overpowered trait. I tell people not to compare one profession to another, but Engineer has this trait as a major grandmaster. It was simply too easy to put 5 points in this line and then be able to dodge every 6.67 seconds. As it stands after the change this still allows you to splash 5 points and dodge every 8 seconds. I don’t think this will ruin survivability, and I think by buff other traits further down this line it will encourge rangers who are looking to survive to go further into this trait line.

Spirits Unbound and Nature’s Voice
I think the biggest change of moving spirits unbound is it allows you to take this trait along with Nature’s Voice. Internally we have done some testing where you bring stone spirit, guard, and then still have a open third utility slot to make some truly good support ranger builds. Spirits have always had that feel and I think this brings that to the forefront.

Power Rangers
No pun intended. As many have said these guys are in an interesting position. In some ways they can be very strong, but everytime I play my ranger this way it feel like it comes up a little bit short. I think this is because they are lacking a few things as either additional tools for greatsword or as utilities. Signets are the somewhat obvious utility choice but their effect is too varied to run a strong full signet build here. Conversely all traits associated with signets tend to increase in power the more you bring. What signets need is a good trait that synergizes with bringing a single signet, like Nature’s Voice does for shouts. This would let you bring maybe one or two signets and suppliment them with something else. One idea we talked about for Greatsword would be to take the evade off of the 3rd attack of the auto-chain and put it on swoop. This would give you a second on-demand defensive skill and instead we put something less timing based (for example a whirl finisher) on that third attack to empower it.

Main-hand sword
I just want to clarify for good that main hand sword is currently working as intended. All movement skills cannot be interrupted by dodging and this is currently intentional. It has a very specific play style, and I would like it to remain. I understand that rangers want a one handed melee option that is more mobile, but that will have to wait, as I know there are a mix of players who also like how this weapon plays and I do not want to take away one of the more unique playstyles that we have and replace it with something that is fairly common.

Thanks,

Jon

#337 - Nov. 5, 2013, 10:25 a.m.

I just had a wacky idea that might make some aspects of MH sword less frustrating. I’ll test it out when I get in to work and report back.

Jon

#338 - Nov. 5, 2013, 10:29 a.m.

Evade on swoop was just an idea to give that build a second on demand defensive skill. It would certainly help close/escape as well because not being able to be bit while closing/escaping is going to improve your chances of doing so. Also gives you a reason to use that skill outside of those situations which would help with rotations IMO. That being said you are correct that removing evade from 1 is probably too harsh so this is a change that will probably have to wait a while for proper testing if it happens at all.

Jon

#398 - Nov. 6, 2013, 9:36 a.m.

As I stated, this change is a lot about low hanging fruit. The problem with ranger is things that are good we don’t want to overpower and the things that are not as good are difficult to change. For example:

• Skirmish and Wilderness line could probably swap half of their traits.
• Beastmastery has basically one generic trait per tier and just needs to be more generalized.
• both primary ranged weapons are a mix of single target and AoE.
• Both marksmanship and skirmish lines lack traits to enable power rangers.

Despite those problems rangers have some great builds in PvE, PvP, and WvW. The core problem is diversity but it just so happens that rangers are not setup in a way that makes it easy to improve that diversity problem.

Too much typing for the bus, I’ll try and discuss more when I’m in.

Jon

P.S. I tried some stuff on MH sword but it was a marginal improvement at best. I’ll ping some programmers today about one other way we might handle it, but don’t hold your breath.

#401 - Nov. 6, 2013, 9:53 a.m.

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

#402 - Nov. 6, 2013, 9:57 a.m.

Even though we wouldn’t do it now another shot at Greatsword to discuss

A) 1 chain NDA by giving Vigor.
B) Add evade to swoop…

Discuss?

#412 - Nov. 6, 2013, 10:12 a.m.

meikodesign.6471:

JonPeters.5630:

Even though we wouldn’t do it now another shot at Greatsword to discuss

A) 1 chain NDA by giving Vigor.
B) Add evade to swoop…

Discuss?

Weakness, Might, Protection or Retalation instead of Vigor?
I thought you wanted to limit the Vigor spam.

We do want to but we also want this to be a weapon with some evasion capability on it, otherwise we would not have made the auto-attack on it evade in the first place.

#422 - Nov. 6, 2013, 10:30 a.m.

Sytherek.7689:

JonPeters.5630:

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

As a former AAA PC game developer, I am mystified by the above.

My frost drake’s underwater F2 is instant, but the dry land F2 has a several-second delay — that makes no sense whatsoever. Underwater, I press F2, and the button works immediately; on dry land, clicking F2 does nothing initially, for 2-3 seconds.

Why the difference?

Since you asked so nicely. The underwater skill is an instant skill which doesn’t not require the AI to change it’s think state, as it can fire off during other actions. The land skill plumbs into our animation system which requires the drake to change it think state and execute a new order to the animation system. Both AI think state and animation can’t be running 100% of the time on every creature on the server for obvious reasons (it would create massive CPU usage and generate tons of skill lag) Animations are masked by client side blending, but the AI stuff has no way to be masked. We can make special cases for Ranger Pet F2, but doing so requires time and testing.

#436 - Nov. 6, 2013, 10:59 a.m.

Holland.9351:

JonPeters.5630:

Even though we wouldn’t do it now another shot at Greatsword to discuss

A) 1 chain NDA by giving Vigor.
B) Add evade to swoop…

Discuss?

Why do you want to change the Greatsword?
Does the evade have to go and you need to come up with an acceptable solution for it?

I don’t have to change it. I am hoping to improve it with changes without making it overpowered. I think right now one of the major problems, despite being good is that the evade on the chain is very hit or miss and feels very RNG when using it or fighting against it. I would rather put more of the skill of when to evade under player control to give this weapon more agency.

#442 - Nov. 6, 2013, 11:03 a.m.

awe extender.1908:

JonPeters.5630:

Sytherek.7689:

JonPeters.5630:

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

As a former AAA PC game developer, I am mystified by the above.

My frost drake’s underwater F2 is instant, but the dry land F2 has a several-second delay — that makes no sense whatsoever. Underwater, I press F2, and the button works immediately; on dry land, clicking F2 does nothing initially, for 2-3 seconds.

Why the difference?

Since you asked so nicely. The underwater skill is an instant skill which doesn’t not require the AI to change it’s think state, as it can fire off during other actions. The land skill plumbs into our animation system which requires the drake to change it think state and execute a new order to the animation system. Both AI think state and animation can’t be running 100% of the time on every creature on the server for obvious reasons (it would create massive CPU usage and generate tons of skill lag) Animations are masked by client side blending, but the AI stuff has no way to be masked. We can make special cases for Ranger Pet F2, but doing so requires time and testing.

Does this mean that we could, once for all, get rid of the delayed F2 / unresponsive F2 by NOT having a pet animation?

I don’t mind having a pet without a F2 animation as long as it can be instant! Please drop the animations and make it like underwater :-))

No because in order for the creatures to attack they are going to use animations. For example I’m not going to spit fire breath out of a drake without it using its fire spitting animation.

#445 - Nov. 6, 2013, 11:06 a.m.

cafard.8953:

Not convinced by evade on Swoop. First, at what cost would it come? Increased cooldown? I’d rather keep swoop as is.

Then, the times when Swoop fails me in a defensive context, it’s not because it didn’t evade, it’s because it didn’t get me far enough because of a cripple or immobilize. In those cases, evade wouldn’t help. Sure, 1s of no damage, but after that, i’m still in the same spot of fiery death.

If you want to improve the defensive side of swoop, make it break cripple/immobilize (or convert them into swiftness, haha), or apply 1-3s of stability.

It would come at no cost to Swoop, it would come at the cost of updating the chain. Also the added benefit that you aren’t taking into account as this skill could now be part of your rotation and used when you see a big attack incoming to avoid it.

#449 - Nov. 6, 2013, 11:10 a.m.

Kal Spiro.9745:

ChillyChinaman.6057:

JonPeters.5630:

Sytherek.7689:

JonPeters.5630:

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

As a former AAA PC game developer, I am mystified by the above.

My frost drake’s underwater F2 is instant, but the dry land F2 has a several-second delay — that makes no sense whatsoever. Underwater, I press F2, and the button works immediately; on dry land, clicking F2 does nothing initially, for 2-3 seconds.

Why the difference?

Since you asked so nicely. The underwater skill is an instant skill which doesn’t not require the AI to change it’s think state, as it can fire off during other actions. The land skill plumbs into our animation system which requires the drake to change it think state and execute a new order to the animation system. Both AI think state and animation can’t be running 100% of the time on every creature on the server for obvious reasons (it would create massive CPU usage and generate tons of skill lag) Animations are masked by client side blending, but the AI stuff has no way to be masked. We can make special cases for Ranger Pet F2, but doing so requires time and testing.

Can someone put this in layman’s terms?

Due to poor programming concepts pets have to actually contact the server and effectively ask for permission to run their F2 ability if any animations are involved in the ability. They then have to wait for the server to respond before they actually pull off the maneuver.

Being ignorant about how an online game must function does not make for good laymans terms. If we did not validate skill use on the server players could hack their clients to use skills without cooldown. I don’t think a lot of players would enjoy that.

#457 - Nov. 6, 2013, 11:29 a.m.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Ah, Zen
I think he means Swoop would receive the invulnerability effect of an evasion for the duration of the existing animation, not that it would help you evade something by automatically moving you backward. Less like Lightning Reflexes, more like Mesmer Distortion.

Correct!

#459 - Nov. 6, 2013, 11:30 a.m.

OGDeadHead.8326:

JonPeters.5630:

No because in order for the creatures to attack they are going to use animations. For example I’m not going to spit fire breath out of a drake without it using its fire spitting animation.

Add quickness to F2.

Quickness is not the problem. The problem is the server delay which would also have to wait for in order to get quickness applied.

#463 - Nov. 6, 2013, 11:34 a.m.

Kal Spiro.9745:

JonPeters.5630:

Kal Spiro.9745:

ChillyChinaman.6057:

JonPeters.5630:

Sytherek.7689:

JonPeters.5630:

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

As a former AAA PC game developer, I am mystified by the above.

My frost drake’s underwater F2 is instant, but the dry land F2 has a several-second delay — that makes no sense whatsoever. Underwater, I press F2, and the button works immediately; on dry land, clicking F2 does nothing initially, for 2-3 seconds.

Why the difference?

Since you asked so nicely. The underwater skill is an instant skill which doesn’t not require the AI to change it’s think state, as it can fire off during other actions. The land skill plumbs into our animation system which requires the drake to change it think state and execute a new order to the animation system. Both AI think state and animation can’t be running 100% of the time on every creature on the server for obvious reasons (it would create massive CPU usage and generate tons of skill lag) Animations are masked by client side blending, but the AI stuff has no way to be masked. We can make special cases for Ranger Pet F2, but doing so requires time and testing.

Can someone put this in layman’s terms?

Due to poor programming concepts pets have to actually contact the server and effectively ask for permission to run their F2 ability if any animations are involved in the ability. They then have to wait for the server to respond before they actually pull off the maneuver.

Being ignorant about how an online game must function does not make for good laymans terms. If we did not validate skill use on the server players could hack their clients to use skills without cooldown. I don’t think a lot of players would enjoy that.

That’s true, but the way your describing it doesn’t make any sense either. F2 should be an automatic block. It doesn’t matter what the pet is doing or trying to do. It should not need to reference some list, or work it’s way through a decision tree. As soon as the system sees F2 it should wipe the out whatever the pet was about to do, or what it planned to do next and immediately interpose it with the F2 command.

Just like when I’m in the middle of any action that isn’t a leap and I hit dodge. The system doesn’t have to figure out if I should finish doing what I was doing, or what animations to do, it stops everything and throws me in the proper direction running the dodge animation.

That’s how Pets should work. This also “should” not effect anything else because only Ranger pets even have an F2 to interpose it. It’s not like a Scale is suddenly going to have an F2 go off and interrupt its regen vomit, there is no F2 to go off.

Maybe it would be a tough change to throw this in now, but that’s why I said poor programming, this is something that should have been done as soon as F2 for Pets became a thing. The fact that it has never been addressed in any way is a poor programming decision.

Right but we are not going to get into the nitty gritty of server programming and how a giant online game needs to send packets back and forth to a multitude of clients and how it needs to handle dropped packets, and how it needs to handle different kinds of server hops, and how it needs to prioritize what it send/receive when the client bandwidth is overloaded. Let’s please leave any technical discussions out of this. This is a design discussion on potential ranger changes and I think if you look at the overall performance/uptime/etc of our server structure with or without some actual expertise you would have a hard time arguing that Guild Wars 2 is not one of the most technically sound massive online games to date.