December 10th Elementalist changes

#102 - Nov. 2, 2013, 12:11 p.m.

Summation of high risk concerns for elementalist.

Diamond Skin
We really love this trait as it opens up some very powerful potential in the earth line to run a defensive elementalist without relying on healing power. The strength of this build is going to be the ability to quickly string small heals together to maintain that condition resistance. I think it could see use in both high damage builds looking to avoid weakness and blind, as well as in defensive builds looking to tank condition heavy classes and condition heavy mobs. I think the big question here is the base health/armor of the elementalist. Of course if you are just an elementalist you just want us to raise these, but balance must work around some fixed things and profession health and armor are an important part of defining what a profession is so that we can create powerful tools that players can actively use to circumvent these weaknesses. In this case if this trait is not powerful enough to be a grandmaster, I believe the right answer is going to be to lower the threshold, not to increase elementalist base health.

Aquamancer’s Alacrity
We moved this trait because all profession cooldown traits are in master tier, and because that is a good investment for this type of improvement. That being said, they may all not be powerful enough to warrant a master level triat right now, but I would rather increase the cooldown to 25% to get people to consider them than to have them be adept tier and allow elementalists to run all four of them.

Cleansing Wave
This is the one I am most on the fence about of all of the elementalist changes. It is a borderline master level trait and I think a better solution would be to leave it at adept tier and instead of moving Soothing Wave (which is only moving because it is better to have a 100% worthless trait at adept tier rather than master tier) we would redesign Soothing Wave into something worthy of master level.

Arcane Abatement
This is moving to adept tier because all of the fall damage traits are in that tier and in our opinion it doesn’t feel good to have to spend 20 points in a line for this kind of trait. Alacrity was the first choice to swap with it here because of the reasons stated above.

Soothing Disruption vs Cantrip Mastery
This one was debated internally for a while as well. I think swapping these traits would also help build diversity as it would let you splash 10 points in water to get Cantrip recharge, but would make you really consider going into water magic for the Regen and Vigor which is much more flavorful. I would love to hear some elementalist thoughts on that potential change.

Last but definitely not least.

Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits. I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier, placing is where the other professions get this type of trait, and instead move Final Shielding to the master tier where it could live alongside Arcane Retribution as two good choices in arcane builds that take Arcane Mastery in the adept tier. That could leave some interesting builds such as: 0/30/30/0/10 for fresh air, diamond skin, and renewing stamina. It also still leaves builds that put only 10 points in Arcana a chance to gain Protection by going 30 air for Tempest Defense, and 10 Earth for Elemental Shielding and still have 30 points leftover.

I still believe there is work to be done at the grandmaster tier in Fire at the very minimum and that Air and Water are the only truly good grandmaster choice right now. There are also still a handful of just terrible traits that will still get looked at, but we felt like we were already bordering on changing too much.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

#108 - Nov. 2, 2013, 12:31 p.m.

xiv.7136:

JonPeters.5630:

Summation of high risk concerns for elementalist.

………..

I still believe there is work to be done at the grandmaster tier in Fire at the very minimum and that Air and Water are the only truly good grandmaster choice right now. There are also still a handful of just terrible traits that will still get looked at, but we felt like we were already bordering on changing too much.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Thanks for participating in the thread, let’s get a good and meaningful discussion that will help you guys enact positive and balanced changes. Don’t be afraid of changing too much when a lot needs changing.

First of all, try Diamond Skin at 80% and see if anyone takes it. 90% is kind of pointless, esp for a grandmaster trait. I don’t even know if it’ll see much play at 80%.

Cooldown reduction traits don’t mean the same for elementalist as for other classes, we’re not weaponswappers who use 2 weaponsets (and some classes use 1 for 80% of the time), we swap attunements constantly. No one is going to take 20% in all lines, that would make for a horrible spec. Make them stronger in the 30% region for specialisation at the master trait level, or more accessible to open up some 2/2 options.

Cantrip mastery is one of those things that needs to be accessible. Elementalists need survivability options since glass cannons are as glass as they get, and they don’t do the damage of other class specs. The reliance on cantrips is a symptom of a different survivability problem with eles, not the problem itself. Speaking of which, LF stunbreaker, needed, come on it’s obvious that it needs it, it’s blink.

Also I think you need to have at least one attunement per weapon giving some decent single target damage. Looking at staff personally but those autos are just wack.

Also revisit some of that D/D stuff. I don’t know if you play D/D but it’s just not up to par right now, it needs roamer capability or what is it for.

Right now I am thinking 85% on diamond skin as high health eles could break this at 80% imo.

Also thinking 25% cooldown on the alacrity traits so we can move slowly. If we go 30% and have to nerf after that I would not be happy. The diamond skin thing is possible for dec 10th. The cooldown thing on alacrity traits is more likely to be the following patch because it has a lot of testing requirements that concern me.

Jon

#155 - Nov. 2, 2013, 4:42 p.m.

JonSnow.5610:

“Only Air and Water have good grandmaster traits right now”

While I don’t disagree, have you overlooked Evasive Arcana in Arcana tree?
Even with the moving of traits most people will still go 30 into this tree just for this trait, because its that good.

Let me clarify that I meant those are the two lines where when you put in 30 points you actually have a hard choice.

#334 - Nov. 4, 2013, 1 p.m.

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

#341 - Nov. 4, 2013, 1:35 p.m.

Zelyhn.8069:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait. However, posts that say things like “this isn’t everything” are just not constructive.

#351 - Nov. 4, 2013, 2:10 p.m.

I think this trait needs better wording. I hope you all understand why that trait would be wildly overpowered if it carried over everything particularly all 10% damage bonuses. You could simply slam through all attunements and then get 50% bonus damage. Similarly making other things work with this would requires those traits get lowered in the base case as well. I think this is a fine 15 point minor trait on its own and we can reword it and then discuss the merits of the other traits on their own.

To me, that is a better starting point for discussion than attempting to balance all of these effects with how they might work with a minor trait in Arcana. That would predicate the entire profession around that trait which is not what we want out of our minor traits.

Jon

#375 - Nov. 4, 2013, 3:17 p.m.

I do agree that the 5 point minors need looking at. I think the Earth and Water ones are in an ok place right now but Fire and Air need work.

Jon

#549 - Nov. 6, 2013, 12:12 p.m.

Lian Olsam.9541:

Evasive arcana on fire-air-earth adept and attunement
Cd range 11-8 on attun swap
elemental attunement on 5 of arcana
renewed stamina on adept

Make those change and u will unlock every kind of builds, sadly to say but imo every one wanna those traits at any cost… it s a must have for any ele build… otherwise this topic is only gossip… u wanna make more viable build just do this modify

I’ve always personally felt as well that Elemental Attunement is a class defining trait. I’ve been arguing to make it baseline or to bring it back down to tier one but the decision we’ve made instead is to bring Renewing Stamina back down to adept instead. This will prevent the dps ele nerf and even though we might all perceive that EA is a “staple” trait we do luckily have options to trait up instead to make up for the loss if you wish to spend points elsewhere. [Elemental Shielding, Zephyr’s Boon, Soothing Mist, etc. etc.] and yes… I know its more than one trait to make up for one but at least they are there and accessible low in other trait lines.

Our hope is not to destroy builds but to make more. Right now the way it looks for Elementalists in PvP is that most builds will still be the same, maybe with a little less AOE condition removal, but there will be more accessible options when going higher in the Fire, Air, and Earth trees.

I personally can’t wait for the Soothing Mist + Cleansing Water synergy. I think I will be enough for me to opt out of taking Cleansing Wave.

#551 - Nov. 6, 2013, 12:28 p.m.

Zelyhn.8069:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Lian Olsam.9541:

Evasive arcana on fire-air-earth adept and attunement
Cd range 11-8 on attun swap
elemental attunement on 5 of arcana
renewed stamina on adept

Make those change and u will unlock every kind of builds, sadly to say but imo every one wanna those traits at any cost… it s a must have for any ele build… otherwise this topic is only gossip… u wanna make more viable build just do this modify

I’ve always personally felt as well that Elemental Attunement is a class defining trait. I’ve been arguing to make it baseline or to bring it back down to tier one but the decision we’ve made instead is to bring Renewing Stamina back down to adept instead. This will prevent the dps ele nerf and even though we might all perceive that EA is a “staple” trait we do luckily have options to trait up instead to make up for the loss if you wish to spend points elsewhere. [Elemental Shielding, Zephyr’s Boon, Soothing Mist, etc. etc.] and yes… I know its more than one trait to make up for one but at least they are there and accessible low in other trait lines.

Our hope is not to destroy builds but to make more. Right now the way it looks for Elementalists in PvP is that most builds will still be the same, maybe with a little less AOE condition removal, but there will be more accessible options when going higher in the Fire, Air, and Earth trees.

I personally can’t wait for the Soothing Mist + Cleansing Water synergy. I think I will be enough for me to opt out of taking Cleansing Wave.

Sorry but it is not really like you had a choice: moving renewing stamina to master would simply destroy the ele both in PvP and PvE.

And it is not like we are shining at the moment.

Saying it would destroy Ele is strictly theory crafted hyperbole but I can respect your emotional reaction to that change. A lot of things are changing and from the internal testing I’ve personally done with ele (2000+ tournament games played on live on top teams) ele is looking really strong. I’m beating most everything 1v1 right now with the spec I’ve been running.

#553 - Nov. 6, 2013, 12:42 p.m.

Also remember that bringing down other classes makes Ele more appealing and effective regardless.

#554 - Nov. 6, 2013, 12:43 p.m.

Dragonar.1342:

Sounds cool.
But aren’t you guys testing new builds for all classes? Are you fighting against new random made up builds or existing strong ones?

Yeah all classes, it’s where being adept and skilled at all classes comes in handy But anyways, basically everything. New builds, meta builds, future meta builds, 1v1 builds, teamfight builds, etc.

#559 - Nov. 6, 2013, 12:49 p.m.

We agree that there is room for improvement in many areas with the Elementalist. Hopefully one balance patch at a time we can get as many good changes in as possible to increase the effectiveness and overall enjoyment of playing the class in all game modes.

#561 - Nov. 6, 2013, 12:51 p.m.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

I personally can’t wait for the Soothing Mist + Cleansing Water synergy. I think I will be enough for me to opt out of taking Cleansing Wave.

I’ve already stated my opinion on this matter, but I’m a bit unconvinced by this synergy. Soothing Wave will have a 10s cooldown. That will make Cleansing Water effectively have a 10s cooldown as well.

Yeah well a 3 second cooldown condition cleanse (passive of sort) would be broken as ever

#566 - Nov. 6, 2013, 1:01 p.m.

Soothing Mist is currently set up to grant a 3 second regeneration when you get critical hit

#575 - Nov. 6, 2013, 1:25 p.m.

The point I’m trying to get across is that it is once again going to be very exciting to play Ele come this patch. It’s much more effective and there’s a lot more options for players. We will also continue to work hard for you guys in continuing this trend across all game mode. If it were easy or even possible to perfectly balance a game for everyone across 3 different game modes with the systems we have we would be doing so I can assure you.

Here are some quick ungrammatically correct thoughts:

To address the other player regarding his comments stressing the importance of making unappealing trait lines better; Burning fire and Diamond Skin are steps in the right direction. It’s a big patch and we are doing a lot of things for each class. We only have a certain amount of time to make changes and it shouldn’t give you the impression that these are the only things we want to do.

Burning fire will allow you to invest offensively in fire and get some defense capability that you lose if you opt points out of water/arcane. This will likely be more useful to PvPer’s rather than PvE’rs, however, PvErs already find it innately easier to take points in fire since kiting mobs is more easily done as compared to kiting players in PvP.

I think you’ll find Diamond skin will give you more freedom than you think as well. We’ve considered bringing Diamond Skin to 85% but we worry it would be too much. It definitely gives you some freedom of mobility as well as much needed negation of condi dumps on inc. This trait will help lower the risk of swapping attunements too early as well. Surely this trait scales in effectiveness with your HP and ele does have the lowest health pool however, I wouldn’t say all ele’s have 12k health pools. Your typical support elementalist with 30 points in water in PvE have around 16-19k HP and some elementalists can get their hp up to 22k. This will let you take around a 1600-2200 hit before conditions are applied. Sure thats a common hit to take in PvE but it’ll most likely have its strenth in safeguarding you in the encounters that have immobilize spam. This trait will help you negate those immobilizes and give you the opportunity to use your cleanses and heals on teammates much easier. In PvP I’m fairly certain only cleric amulet elementalists are looking at 12k hp builds. The majority of builds that are played are actually 14k+ builds. Regardless, it’s a trait that is now way better than it used to be.

#594 - Nov. 6, 2013, 2:51 p.m.

Leuca.5732:

What possible solutions did you guys look at for Cleansing Water and Elemental Attunement before deciding to go on with the changes for them?

Not going to dive too far into answering this but the designers moved these traits to the master line because they consider them traits too strong to be adept. Surely you can imagine a bunch of ideas were on the table.

This patch is pretty insane, we are trying to improve poor traits, place traits where they deserve to be strength wise, and fix a broken meta. Some of these changes could be perceived as going against how we want players to find other lines to spec in as well as the general timing of these changes surely are somewhat risky per say; but we’ve worked ridiculously hard to make as much of an impact as possible. We have put in as many changes as we could given the time we have for development for that release to get everything done that needs to be done. We can’t please everyone but we certainly have striven to please as many people as possible.

#599 - Nov. 6, 2013, 3:16 p.m.

I’ve played with about everything but I think I found my calling with 0/30/10/30/0 dagger/dagger. The traits I take are Tempest Defense, Zephyrs Boon, Air Training, Elemental Shielding, Soothing Wave, Soothing Disruption, Cleansing Water) with 6 divinity. It’s a bit high risk of a spec but if you can get down your aura timings as well as cantrip use for cleansing, it’s devastating. It’s a very high damage spec in sPvP.

#608 - Nov. 6, 2013, 3:59 p.m.

Leuca.5732:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Not going to dive too far into answering this but the designers moved these traits to the master line because they consider them traits too strong to be adept. Surely you can imagine a bunch of ideas were on the table.

Why are they too strong to be adept? A condition cleanse every 10 seconds (requires maxed Arcana) and some boons on attunement. Stating the obvious here, but wouldn’t a better solution have included identifying factors that make them so strong and then toning those down? For instance, how numerically strong would Cleansing Wave still be if it only affected the Elementalist? I can only guess ideas like this were brought up, but who actually thinks Cleansing Wave would be too strong for the Adept tier if it had no aoe, and what ele wouldn’t still find it useful for the most part?

My issue with many of these changes is that they are unnecessarily counteracting changes that are meant to increase versatility.

It’s the only tier 1 AOE cleanse in the game is the main reason, other factors are that its also an on demand cleanse, and it can be used every 10 seconds.

^^ directly from JP’s mouth just now

#623 - Nov. 6, 2013, 4:55 p.m.

Treborlavok.3504:

just like the guardians 5 trait for vigor on crit… its ok for them to have a 10 second single condition cure at adept…?

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.