Current state of the meta.

#1 - July 20, 2013, 4:23 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The current state of the meta has never been worse than it is now, I have been having a very big problem getting a grasp on what Arena Net was thinking when this patch went live. I have been a very big advocate of Arena Net, but I can’t hold my tongue any longer when I see balancing taken into such a direction.
I however do understand the thought process behind what Arena Net is trying to do, I just believe they are taking things into a very bad direction.

Let us discuss what this game has come to.

Firstly I would like to talk about Necro, I do understand that this subject has been discussed a lot on the forums, but it still blows my mind that after stating many many times before that Arena Net doesn’t wish to do knee jerk balancing they decide to make Necros into a moving nuclear reactor of conditions.
There has been a lot of feedback on the forums regarding how Necro should be balanced and what they were missing, and that was survival and ability to disengage; a lot of necro players felt that this is what they needed, but instead of taking that approach Arena Net just threw more damage at them, effectively giving them every condition in the game and in abundance although they already had their own unique condition “Terror”.
The problem doesn’t only stop their but coupled with the improvements made to “Weakness” and “Blind”, this elevated Necro into being an unstoppable force.
Had Arena Net buffed blind, given Necro more ways to gain death shroud or a disengage it would have been perfectly fine, I think that most Necros would agree to that.
Instead Necro was given, Burn on crit, Torment on a new death shroud ability that also immobilizes the target as an aoe and with the new “Weakness” and “Blind”, it just made no sense, in fact if anything it just blew my mind, how a balancing team thought that this would be in anyway balanced.

If you thought that not giving them a disengage and increased survival, but piling on more damage would solve the problem, then your sorely mistaken, but because that sort of approach to balancing has made this game close to unplayable.

Let’s look at another example, thieves, previously thieves main issue was being able to sustain themselves in a fight, and remaining effective through out of the fight; instead of being one shot wonders that fell off after their combo was down.
Take a look at thieves in the current meta, s/d thieves have access to an astounding amount of evades and teleports, that the class its self has become mindless there is no repercussions for diving and little regard to coordination because they can port back at any time, if the thief is very well played it is extremely difficult to punish it.
It just doesn’t promote good play, when you know that you always have an out at the click of a button, and that it takes your opponent ten times more effort to take you down, then it did you just recklessly doing what you want.
Stealth, is another issue in this game and plays right into the same category, it’s just so difficult to punish, and there is no real other counter for stealth than another stealth, there is no intelligent play behind; it’s just a free “do what I want” card.
If there was a reveal mechanic or a way to counter it, then you would see a lot more intelligent play and thought process put behind stealthing, but at the current state of the game there just isn’t.

The current meta is for lack of better words complete and utter crap, the game has never been more un-enjoyable to play then it has been in the past 3 weeks .
Supporting team mates and actual intelligent play has been completely thrown out the window, and things have been degraded down to a condi spam meta, that doesn’t promote any sort of skill or team play.
Damage is so out of control currently, that by supporting a team mate you kitten yourself because regardless of your support, damage is so high he is going to go down anyway.
I miss the days when there was a thought process behind what you had to do, instead now it is a stealth insta gib condition infested meta, that is both un-enjoyable to play as it is to watch.
I hope that Arena Net listens to its players and looks at the current thread and remedies the current problems, because if it keeps going like this, I doubt there will be anyone left playing this game after Pax, because honestly I find no reason to continue playing a game that is meant to be a five vs five game, that promotes no kind of team play or team support.

I understand that a lot of people might disagree with what I have said here, but this is strictly how I view the problems in the game, I have personally discussed this with a lot of players and they feel the same way, I just hope that we can get some input regarding this matter from Arena Net, because this game has been on the decline.

Thank you.

#399 - July 23, 2013, 6:43 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Just wanted to jump in and say I’m watching this, but I didn’t want to derail this thread.

I think the “high level” and the “casual” are equally important to the health and life of the game.

The truth is that we need to balance for both, and we need to use 1 set of #‘s for THREE game types, which all have “high” and “casual” markets. So, in a sense, the balance team is balancing for 6 different types of players, all while trying to keep the #’s as consistent as possible for all game types.

Keep the other game types in mind and thanks for being cool/calm/collected when discussing such a volatile issue.

#401 - July 23, 2013, 7:01 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Oh, also, to the Op’s point (sorry, I’m about to present in China, my mind is elsewhere, didn’t mean to ignore the OP):

The reason we did a “big” change for the Necro, as I’ve stated before, is that we had the Pax tournament coming. We knew we wanted to get Necros and Warriors up with the other classes, and that’s why we had big changes.

Also, a lot of our changes happen VERY far ahead of what you guys see on live. What do I mean?

  • It takes us time to get our changes to editors for writing (any text/trait change has to be edited). This can take a week or more.
  • We have to then get changes to writers.
  • We then have to make sure we work with artists for any visual changes
  • We also have to work with sound to make sure we have sound for any changes
  • We have to work with icon artists for icons if they’re needed (in the case of Death Shroud 5)
  • We have to make sure the changes get through multiple stages of QA testing
  • Then with the changes in, we get time to play them before we do final changes
  • While doing all this, we have to take the current meta, be it in dungeons/wvw/pvp, and from that, try to extrapolate what we think needs to be done a few months in advance.

This process can take a LONG time, as you can imagine. It’s not as simple as, “Oh, let’s change this to a 2, and change that to a 7.”

I know the video game industry in general is not very transparent when it comes to how things actually work, but I wanted you guys to know that a lot of times, there is a LOT of process for even the SMALLEST balance/content changes.

We get to see how Ridley Scott made Blade Runner with a companion DVD special, but in video games, no one talks about all the complex processes that go into making and balancing a game as complex as GW2 (which is basically 3 games in 1, all using the same balance #’s).

Hope this makes sense.

Oh, also, the reason we can’t give Necro’s too much disengage has to do with the point of “purity of purpose”.

In this game, we want to allow classes the ability to deal with all situations but in different ways. But, if we give all classes all TOOLS (which is a different thing), then players get confused as to which classes fill which roles, and in what way they fill those roles

Example: In PvP, the Necro and Engi both vie for the position of condition pressure. The engineer has more physical alternatives, the Necro has more boon/condition manipulation, the Engi has more escapability, and the Necro is a little squishier. If we gave the Necro too much mobility or escapability, then all of a sudden their “tools” start to line up exactly. If this is the case, one of them will simply be better than the other, as far as efficacy goes, and thus, one will push the other out of the meta for that “role” on the team. This class would then be the “apex” predator for that role. So, in order to prevent this, we try to make it so that the classes don’t have all their tools overlap perfectly. This means you have to say (following our example), “Well, if we take a Necro, we get more condies, but a squishy body that can’t disengage…..but if we take Engi, we lose some DPS and control (depending on utils), but we get someone who can stand up to a spike better”.

Make sense? If we just gave the escape to Necro’s, then all of a sudden, the Necro is just the clear choice. Not all decisions come down to a clean break like this, but this is the type of thing we’re trying to do when we “deny” some classes certain tools.

This is the same reason that Red doesn’t get interrupts in Magic, the reason that Zergs, normally, have much more mobility than Protoss (since Toss are usually stronger unit-by-unit), and why Karthus has no escapes. By denying tools, you create choices for the players. We sometimes do a poor job of this, sorry. But overall, we try to make it so that all classes have choices, and teams have choices in which classes they bring.

Also, keep in mind we’re trying to get 8 classes to fit into 5 slots, for PvE, Dungeons, and PvP.

This is all high level, and I’m in a rush, but I just wanted to explain this real fast…..

It’s funny, being in China, I have more time to post on the forums than I do while in the office. That’s irony or something….like 10,000 spoons….

-Chap from China

#406 - July 23, 2013, 7:42 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Wow, I haven’t been playing this game for very long and did not play the first game very much, so I don’t know much about ArenaNet but this is amazing. It’s so great that you would write a response like this for the community. I think in all my time playing other MMORPGs, I’ve never seen such a detailed forum response.

Yes, you’re right. I think nearly all players, myself included, did not grasp the extent to which ideas had to be worked on before implementation. It’s clear that the company cares about the players, and it’s unfortunate that with the tournament coming bigger changes had to be made more quickly as opposed to slower changes. But I think a post like your reply would have been very useful pre-patch. Let the players know why you can’t just take their suggestions and do them. It’s great that you replied now, but if this had been known before, I think maybe some players wouldn’t have been so frustrated. Because it seemed like you guys heard their suggestions and then completely ignored it and did something else. That, I believe, was a big factor in the frustrated, hostile feelings.

Well, as I said, the gaming industry, overall, is still not terribly transparent to most of the world. I don’t think it’s anything secretive, it’s just not to the same level as, to use the example again, the “Making of” type stuff we see for so many movies.

Also, we try to reply as much as we can, but often times, it comes down to trying to get things done within our processes, or taking time away to talk to the players. If we get to that choice, we choose WORKING FOR YOU GUYS over talking TO you every time. We realize it may not seem like that on the outside, but game devs really bust their butts.

#408 - July 23, 2013, 7:48 p.m.
Blizzard Post

While I appreciate the thought process here Jonathan, what works for one part of the game, doesn’t always work for the others. Finally we had a structurally strong build which only needed some damage tweaking (aka the fear damage and possibly the burn damage also) to fix the fotm 30/30/10 build. Instead, you ruin it completely by moving greater marks to the master tier. There was already a serious lack of condition build diversity and now we’re left licking our wounds. WvW was finally seeing Necros again but I guess people will just bench them again.

We’ll have to see. Keep in mind that the base size for the marks has gone up now, so the trait isn’t as “needed” as it was before. Unblockable is great, but in WvW, having a large “base” size for the marks should help relieve the “need” for that trait.

Again, we’ll have to see. Thanks for bringing up that point Pinkus. It’s something we considered, and we’ll just have to see how the meta handles the new changes in WvW. We also keep changes in mind for PvE Necros as well.

#416 - July 23, 2013, 8:04 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Wow, I haven’t been playing this game for very long and did not play the first game very much, so I don’t know much about ArenaNet but this is amazing. It’s so great that you would write a response like this for the community. I think in all my time playing other MMORPGs, I’ve never seen such a detailed forum response.

Yes, you’re right. I think nearly all players, myself included, did not grasp the extent to which ideas had to be worked on before implementation. It’s clear that the company cares about the players, and it’s unfortunate that with the tournament coming bigger changes had to be made more quickly as opposed to slower changes. But I think a post like your reply would have been very useful pre-patch. Let the players know why you can’t just take their suggestions and do them. It’s great that you replied now, but if this had been known before, I think maybe some players wouldn’t have been so frustrated. Because it seemed like you guys heard their suggestions and then completely ignored it and did something else. That, I believe, was a big factor in the frustrated, hostile feelings.

Well, as I said, the gaming industry, overall, is still not terribly transparent to most of the world. I don’t think it’s anything secretive, it’s just not to the same level as, to use the example again, the “Making of” type stuff we see for so many movies.

Also, we try to reply as much as we can, but often times, it comes down to trying to get things done within our processes, or taking time away to talk to the players. If we get to that choice, we choose WORKING FOR YOU GUYS over talking TO you every time. We realize it may not seem like that on the outside, but game devs really bust their butts.

Haha yes of course. I’m not trying to take anything away from you here. Honestly, I think you should take the reply you typed, paste it in a new thread and sticky it. Then on half the complaint threads, someone can just reference the thread in response.

Nods, I agree. We want to be more transparent where we can be.

And the truth is, most of the time, it’s not that we don’t want to tell you guys these things, we’re just so freaking busy, we just don’t have the time. We’ll try to do as much as we can on that matter.

Allie has been helping us a TON by helping to explain things to players while we keep our heads down to design/implement changes.

Thanks for the thoughts Pajamaboi!

#421 - July 23, 2013, 8:39 p.m.
Blizzard Post

We get to see how Ridley Scott made Blade Runner with a companion DVD special, but in video games, no one talks about all the complex processes that go into making and balancing a game as complex as GW2 (which is basically 3 games in 1, all using the same balance #’s).

Hope this makes sense.

With all my respect but it make no sense to me, if you guys are trying to balance the 3 parts of the game using the same balance, it’s seems crazy to me.

Even in some games like lol, they balance around a classic game type but the characters which are considered top tier in 5vs5 are totally diferent from characters which are considered top tier in 3vs3.

I remember some of the last SoTG you mention that you want to new players in spvp from pve or wvsw to know what their characters do, but I want you to know that everyday that I see new players on the mist i just listen the same question. where are the rings and other accesories apart from the amulet?

You guys split the game to make spvp competitive , I dont understand why you dont divide balance to the same reason.

As I’ve said, if we split EVERYTHING and maintained 3 versions of every skill in the game (PvE/WvW/PvP), we’d be adding a LOT of work for the balance team. As it is, we try to keep most things consistent, and only split where we feel it is needed.

It’s a work flow issue, hope this makes sense. It would also mean that players would have to learn 3 different versions of every skill, which is not good for new players.