CDI- Fractal Evolution

#1 - Feb. 24, 2014, 11:54 a.m.

Welcome fellow collaborators to the latest round of CDI topics.

Thanks in advance for your hard work and passion in making Guild Wars 2 the very best game it can be.

Topic Title: How would you like to see Fractals Evolved?

Description of Topic Feature or Goal.:
To provide a highly repeatable 5 man strategic instance experience that scales in difficultly as you progress in fractal levels whilst providing the opportunity to tell old and new stories from within the Guild Wars Universe.

Below are some suggested formatting tools that willmake the CDI more accesible if followed.

Suggested Idea Proposal Format
Proposal Overview
<A short description of the proposal that is being put forward>

Goal of Proposal
<What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal>

Proposal Functionality
<How does your proposal work in regard in relation to the current design of GW2>

Associated Risks
<What risks or problems can you foresee with this proposal which you would like to have assistance on from other members of the CDI>
Please try to be as concise as feasible with your proposal. This however no suggested word count for proposal posts.

Suggested Discussion Approach

No suggested format.
Suggested Post Word Count: 200

CDI Rules:

1: This initiative is all about discussion.
2: We will not be disclosing information pertaining to what is currently in development.
3: Anger and emotion will have less impact than intelligent discussion.
4: Together we will share and evolve design philosophies which will impact how we develop the game moving forward.
5: Aggression and disrespect to a fellow community member or developer will not be tolerated, and in the extreme could lead to the shutting down of the initiative.
6: The teams primary focus is work toward the development of GW2 and therefore posting of discussion and commentary may not be as frequent as you like. Please do understand that the initiative is taken very seriously by us all and that we will be reading the discussions and joining in as often as it is possible to do so.

Please note this is not a competition, either between yourselves or the developers in regard to one up man ship. The point of this Initiative is to work together to make the game better.

Note: We will disclose the ideas we do or don’t like as a group but we will not discuss schedules or timing around implementation. If there is still concern surrounding how seriously we take community collaboration then please do take the time to think about how much impact the community has had on the working of this game over the year.

Chris

#3 - Feb. 24, 2014, 11:54 a.m.

I would like us to start of by listing the top three things we would like to see evolved in Fractal Design. Idea proposals can come after this stage.

Chris

#7 - Feb. 24, 2014, 11:57 a.m.

Good start folks.

Chris

#23 - Feb. 24, 2014, 12:17 p.m.

Awesome use of the suggested format so far.

Thanks,

Chris

#88 - Feb. 24, 2014, 2:30 p.m.

Good stuff!

Note during the proposal and top 3 evolution’s stage there really is no need to have summaries.

The proposal format in my opinion is really working, it is certainly saving me time and I am very quickly able to understand the ideas and the pertinent discussion around them.

Thank you all very much for giving the idea a try I appreciate it.

Chris

#142 - Feb. 24, 2014, 9:57 p.m.

Quick note to say that I am up to date on the proposals and small number of discussion points.

Chris

#222 - Feb. 25, 2014, 12:48 p.m.

Shinki.8045:

Conski Deshan.2057:

snip.

Agreed. Discussing the fact the dredge is frustrating and takes a long time barely helps the process of Fractal evolution beyond the idea that people dislike long time gates. Dredge can be fixed to the liking of players and devs alike, getting there should be part of the evolution of fractals.

One topic I’m not sure if someone has brought up or not, but would solve some of the rewards/currency issues players are having:

A vendor that gets unlocked after completion of the final Fractal. This vendor has things that can be bought based on the difficulty that has been completed, and bought using fractals currency primarily (depending on the value of the item.) As an added way to make it interesting, have the available wares vary depending on what fractals people ran through especially the first one.

Pie in the sky idea: Sell stat infusions from these vendors, or dye kits to color existing fractal weapons, or some other way to show prestige from completing difficult content.

The concerns, comments and feedback surrounding Dredge are something that we are well aware of. Thank you very much for giving us further insight into this area but our time as a CDI on this topic is better spent elsewhere.

Chris

#229 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:12 p.m.

Asko.4120:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Shinki.8045:

Conski Deshan.2057:

snip.

Agreed. Discussing the fact the dredge is frustrating and takes a long time barely helps the process of Fractal evolution beyond the idea that people dislike long time gates. Dredge can be fixed to the liking of players and devs alike, getting there should be part of the evolution of fractals.

One topic I’m not sure if someone has brought up or not, but would solve some of the rewards/currency issues players are having:

A vendor that gets unlocked after completion of the final Fractal. This vendor has things that can be bought based on the difficulty that has been completed, and bought using fractals currency primarily (depending on the value of the item.) As an added way to make it interesting, have the available wares vary depending on what fractals people ran through especially the first one.

Pie in the sky idea: Sell stat infusions from these vendors, or dye kits to color existing fractal weapons, or some other way to show prestige from completing difficult content.

The concerns, comments and feedback surrounding Dredge are something that we are well aware of. Thank you very much for giving us further insight into this area but our time as a CDI on this topic is better spent elsewhere.

Chris

I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but if you are ‘well aware of’ the player displeasement with the current implementation of the dredge fractal, why haven’t you done anything about it for the last year?
I can’t even begin to count all the topics opened to voice player concerns about the fractal and still there has been no change. Actually that is not entirely true, you have ‘fixed’ numerous tricks players used to help making the fractal slightly shorter.
I even remember a developer quote that said something like ‘we are looking into options to help reduce the length of the unnecessarily long fractal (dredge)’ way before the Fractured patch but the opposite was done

Hi Asko,

I would like to clarify that we are aware of the feedback both from this thread and before. We try to stop on top of all feedback from all aspects of the game. Jumping from this statement to ‘why isn’t it fixed’ is not a topic for this CDI nor any moving forward.

I am simply stating that we are aware of the feedback and therefore our time is better spent discussing other areas of Fractal evolution. I am really enjoying many of the proposals and discussion and would like to see us continue discussing areas that perhaps we haven’t considered before or further drilling into reward design which has been an excellent part of the discussion so far.

Chris

#232 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:17 p.m.

Malchior.5042:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

timmyf.1490:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I just thought there was a suggested word count of the proposals, and it was 200

So far, that just isn’t happening.

Incorrect. Proposals can have any length. Suggested word count for discussion posts about proposals is 200 or less.

Oh well, there hasn’t been much discussion. Only 5 pages of proposals of “any” length.

Which is to be expected at this time. This is exactly how I hoped it would pan out, and it’s much more streamlined this way.

Imagine if you were at a business table with 50 executives or something and they all tried to not only give their proposals, but argue for or against other’s proposals at the same time? Essentially, noone would be heard.

It’s great that the contributors here are feeding off one another, speaking in turn (as if rotating around a table), and then just stepping aside to let the next person offer a proposal.

Now it will fall on Chris to find some interesting ones for further discussion, or present the request for players to find a proposal that is not their own to back, support, or campaign.

And now, back to lurking. Been too busy with work this week to contribute my own proposal.

@Lilith – I agree, and perhaps Chris can decide on a course of action once a majority of the proposals have been gathered.

I to am really enjoying how the new format is working out. Seeing the proposals and discussions in this format is making the whole topic much more accessible.

In regard to your request I would like to see more discussion/proposal around rewards as well as ideation about how we could evolve the whole Fractal experience from ideas around new types of fractals, new lore and info on your favorite encounters in the current fractals.

On top of this it would also be cool to hear about people’s favorite instabilities and ideas for new ones.

Chris

#233 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:18 p.m.

timmyf.1490:

Asko.4120:

I don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but if you are ‘well aware of’ the player displeasement with the current implementation of the dredge fractal, why haven’t you done anything about it for the last year?

I speculated about this in an earlier post, but my best guess is that there is internal disagreement about this Fractal, but the decision was made to keep it as is and most devs are just trying to avoid making any comment about it at all as they need to present a unified message to players.

This is pretty standard corporate policy. My hope is, over time, ArenaNet feels more comfortable allowing individual developers some leeway in discussing personal feelings which may differ from the official position. I think Josh Foreman is best known for doing so and most of us here have tons of respect for him because of it.

That said: Chris has made it pretty clear that Dredge won’t be discussed, so let’s try to find other topics and move forward.

Just to clarify: Ideas around Dredge are welcome, regurgitating the same feedback in regard to the fractal is pointless.

Chris

#234 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:19 p.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Malchior.5042:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

timmyf.1490:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I just thought there was a suggested word count of the proposals, and it was 200

So far, that just isn’t happening.

Incorrect. Proposals can have any length. Suggested word count for discussion posts about proposals is 200 or less.

Oh well, there hasn’t been much discussion. Only 5 pages of proposals of “any” length.

Which is to be expected at this time. This is exactly how I hoped it would pan out, and it’s much more streamlined this way.

Imagine if you were at a business table with 50 executives or something and they all tried to not only give their proposals, but argue for or against other’s proposals at the same time? Essentially, noone would be heard.

It’s great that the contributors here are feeding off one another, speaking in turn (as if rotating around a table), and then just stepping aside to let the next person offer a proposal.

Now it will fall on Chris to find some interesting ones for further discussion, or present the request for players to find a proposal that is not their own to back, support, or campaign.

And now, back to lurking. Been too busy with work this week to contribute my own proposal.

@Lilith – I agree, and perhaps Chris can decide on a course of action once a majority of the proposals have been gathered.

I to am really enjoying how the new format is working out. Seeing the proposals and discussions in this format is making the whole topic much more accessible.

In regard to your request I would like to see more discussion/proposal around rewards as well as ideation about how we could evolve the whole Fractal experience from ideas around new types of fractals, new lore and info on your favorite encounters in the current fractals.

On top of this it would also be cool to hear about people’s favorite instabilities and ideas for new ones.

Chris

Also i think it is totally cool to have the first pages be proposals and for discussions to flow synergistically between and after them. No issue here.

Chris

#235 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:21 p.m.

Mustafa.7684:

Topic Title: Potential Fractals (Replay Value)

Description of Topic Feature or Goal:
There are a lot of instances that can be created with the fractals. You can add some previous missions from Guild Wars 1 (don’t know if you are allowed to but come on this game is a “sequal”.) Not only this but you can also provide additional lore from the research we do while in fractals.

Suggested Idea Proposal Format:
1- You can create small fractals from Eye of the north dungeons. Or Main missions like fall of abbadon or fighting the lich king.

2- After completing the fractals we should be able to go back to the npc and find out there conclusion on the fractals. Ie where the giant silver surfer came from, what time frame that was in. Extra flavor text that can provide us a information about what we have done will provide us a sense of accomplishment other than the blues and greens we really really are begging for!!!

Goal of Proposal
Increase the Fractal Replay value. Yes once you hit the cap of 50 there is not point in doing the high level ones any more. You want to do you daily and done. However if you are able to provide lets say another 5 – 10 fractals this will increase the player base since player would want to try the new content.

Proposal Functionality
This one might be time consuming because you are actually creating content for the game. It can be another living story update. I would also perfer that devs do there research on what are good fractals that can excite the players.

Associated Risks
The only risks i see is Money. time is money and developing new fractals will take time. All I ask is that please consult players before you make fractals so we are happy with what we get. The Thoumanova reactor was good but poorly implemented. This was just another way for you to get Scarlett involved. If the community wanted Abbadon, I am sure Scarlett wouldn’t have been there. I hope not!

I like your thinking Mustafa!

Chris

#239 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:26 p.m.

Scorch der Juengere.7328:

Proposal Overview
The Agony Protection Device allows players to take an extra burden of positioning an environmental item and themselves in a fight in order to avoid agony.

Goal of Proposal
This proposal assumes that it should be possible to do Fractals by replacing the need for agony resistance with a higher requirement on skill. It proposes a method to allow this by giving a group the option to add a secondary mechanic to encounters which—if executed successfully—allows the players to avoid agony.

Proposal Functionality
At the start of each fractal, the Agony Protection Device, an environmental item, spawns along with the players. The item creates a small zone around it. In this zone, players are immune to agony (alternative: can not receive new stacks of agony). This zone wanders with the item no matter if it is carried by a player, or not.
For those of you familiar with the Tower of Nightmares, there was a similar device in some of the chambers that made players immune to the toxic pollen.

The additional burden for the group is to carry around the device (no weapon skills while carrying) and to organize group play such that the characters are in the zone when agony is about to hit.

At the start of each Fractal, there is a robot which allows to reset the device (remove the old one, create a new one at the position of the robot).

Problems

hide spoiler

Associated Problems

• The “additional burden” is not balanced over different fractals. The idea was born for the Solid Ocean Fractal, and that it where I hope it should work like I intended: players meeting in a small zone when agony is about to hit. It is, however, rather trivial when the unavoidable agony is limited to a few hits before the fight even starts (Mai Trin, Molten Duo). In these cases, the additional burden might be too small. I’d say this is a big issue.
• It also affects Fractals of tier 1 to 3. This will probably add some trouble for changing some encounters to be too easy. However, since unavoidable agony is also parts of these tiers (at least the cooling-rod-room in Thaumanova), it should also apply to them. Medium-sized issue in my opinion.
• It also puts limitations on future Fractals. For example, unavoidable agony must never occur while the group is split up (maybe countered by adding multiple devices?).
  Medium-sized issue in my opinion, as it only limits the use of unavoidable agony.
• It can also allow a single (or two/three) player to get an advantage over the other players. Players can choose to just stay in the zone for the agony-immunity. However, if all players stay put in the same zone, most encounters are unforgiving. Therefore a group has to decide who gets to carry the device and to get the protection. This might actually be a nice addition for some groups (helping new players). I’d thus say it is only a small issue.
• Making an environmental weapon crucial for success is very prone to bugs. It probably needs a method to recreate it in case it is lost. Big issue, but maybe easy to solve.
• (added in edit 1) The effect on the agony-instabilities (level 40, 50) is really big. I simply can not foretell how this will work. People would actually be forced to staying together. This is not always possible (pressure plates in Dredge Fractal) and probably not wanted by some players. Big issue. Really big. Even if level 60, 70 and 80 are not similar to 40 and 50.

Really fun idea.

Chris

#241 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:27 p.m.

timmyf.1490:

Chris-

What are your thoughts about bringing back some of the GW1 Missions as Fractals? Is that something feasible?

I mentioned Aurora Glade as an option before. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aurora_glade

If this is something you would entertain, would it be valuable for us to discuss potential options?

I think this is a cool idea and certainly one worth some proposals and some discusison around said proposals.

Chris

#243 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:29 p.m.

Moon.7310:

Using fractals to tell story:

Proposal Overview
Fractals should be used to tell as more about the lore/history of Tyria.

Goal of Proposal
Increase the amount of lore used for the fractals and creating new fractals which story and background informations. This is such a good oppertunity to tell us about things that happende before GW2, things that could happen in the future, things of an alternate version of Tyria.

Proposal Functionality
Existing fractals:
I think the fractals should have some more story, like what is this underwater fractal thing, what happened in this strange rata-sum version, is it ascalon we are over-running? It would be great if we got some more informations about them while doing them, either by getting more informations from Dessa or by some writings found in them or NPCs you could talk to.

New fractals:

• There could be fractals which tell us about events that happened between GW1 and GW2
• Fractals that tell us about things that happened even before GW1
• Fractals telling alternate versions of history: I would especially love to see a fractal where we help Shiro to kill the Emporer (still a great fan of Shiro )
• Fractals about a possible future: Everything is overrun by Scarlet (sorry, I just had to write that here, since I like here even if so many hate her^^)
  I’ll complete the list here with this examples, since I could go on about this for a long time.

Associated Risks
Of course people might not care about lore/story, making it a bit of wasted time for you devs, but I still think many would think it a nice addition and if it leads to new fractals everyone should be happy.

Hi Moon,

Thanks for delivering a very good proposal for more Lore based fractals.

TimmyF this post is a good example to discuss ideas around.

Chris

#245 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:31 p.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Chris, I think Nike recommended an environmental weapon, like a shield, that could help with the first encounter. Is this something that you’re fine with chatting about? The addition of tools to fractals like dredge so that the fractal itself doesn’t change, but our strategies do?

That is absolutely ok to discuss.

Like I said I have no issue discussing evolution of the fractals once we have a good grasp on what should be evolved, which in the case of Dredge i feel like we do.

Chris

#248 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:33 p.m.

Galen Grey.4709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I would like us to start of by listing the top three things we would like to see evolved in Fractal Design. Idea proposals can come after this stage.

Chris

1. Procedural Generation
it would be nice if at least some elements found in a fractal were a bit randomize so that every run has variety
2 rewards
making rewards not entirely dependable on RNG
3 User generated content
This is perhaps a bit too ambitious but perhaps if the mists can be found to dwell in alternate realities not just the past, it would be interesting to allow players to design their own fractals and share them with the community.

Personal opinion: It would be really cool to have number 3. Rewards would be an interesting problem in regard to this idea though.

Chris

#251 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:41 p.m.

Esya.3427:

I already posted this in the dungeon forum yesterday, as I was unaware of a fractal CDI coming up. I am sorry for the double post, but I feel it is best to have this suggestion here as well for completeness.

Proposal overview
Make agony resistance (AR) account wide.

Goal of Proposal
Fractals become much more repeatable/replayable if we can bring any character. It makes it a different experience. The fractal levels are account wide, but I find myself bringing the same character because she is the only one who is equiped with AR.

Proposal Functionality
Similar to the change that was made for magic find in the past, where it was removed from the gear and made account wide, the same could be done for AR.

Associated Risks
- People who already build up their AR should have this transferred to their account somehow in order to not lose progress.
- Balancing the acquirement of AR.
- Balancing power creep from infusion slots that can now slot other attributes.

I will discuss this proposal with Izzy and have him respond.

Chris

#252 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:44 p.m.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Chris,
Is there a specific policy against the introduction of prestige items (items specificity beyond the ability of a large quantity of players to acquire.) being introduced to high level fractals?
or are we welcome to make proposals based around that idea?/ high difficulty rewards?

On fractal evolution, would you (personally not asking for a company stance) prefer the introduction of more fractal types (such as the endless fractal and tower fractal modes that have been suggested) or would you rather we expand on what new scenario fractals we’d like?

Hi Conski,

Feel free to discuss those ideas. Folks can discuss anything they like as long as it is on topic and not cyclic retreading of things we already know (as a group).

Chris

#253 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:44 p.m.

Malchior.5042:

Would rewards have to be the end-goal of such an initiative, Chris? One of the best examples I’ve seen recently of user-generated encounters was the “Foundry” in Neverwinter.

http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Foundry

They basically gave access to different base NPCs, assets, map templates, and from there, people crafted their custom stories, quests, and dungeon-delving experiences. There was no ability to modify mechanics, stats, or do mesh editing of the different props. It was essentially a copy-paste tool for the purposes of creating environments, but thankfully one of the greatest strengths of the D&D universe is its Roleplaying and the thousands of stories that can be created.

I feel the same could be said for the world of Tyria.

I don’t know how much effort it would take to create a new tool or system of this manner in the Guild Wars 2 engine, but Fractals could definitely be seen as a method of delivery for the content.

Lots and lots of effort (-:

Chris

#260 - Feb. 25, 2014, 1:55 p.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I sort of feel bad for Chris already. I tried to keep my posts short, but every time I come back to the thread I see walls of text that are “formatted”. It’s still difficult to get through.

I really wish people could be more concise, use more lists, and less walls of text.

Anyway, I like a lot of the ideas so far. But it does seem the playerbase is all on the same page here. It would be beneficial to get some developer interaction to see what page they’re on. (But I can’t imagine trying to soak in this many words at once, so I suspect that’s why we aren’t getting too much red yet).

Things are much much more accessible already and whilst we can still improve I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for giving it a try.

Loads of devs have commented to me about the topics being much easier to consume and think about.

So thanks everyone.

Chris

#287 - Feb. 25, 2014, 2:53 p.m.

Fowidner.6930:

The main thing I still don’t understand; Fractals is all about agony and agony resistance. After compleeting a Fractal you have a chance to get Fractal Weapons, But WHY we still can’t upgrade these weapons into ascended and maybe like the backpack an extra glow or any other effect while infusion the weapon.

A few neat ideas here I wanted to split out.
1.) Upgrading weapons to ascended: We didn’t do this because when we first released these weapons there where no ascended weapons and now that there are we figured like all skins people could transfer them via the transmogrification system. I do how ever really like the idea of making another tier to the weapons and allowing you to upgrade it much like the backpack.
2) Infused weapons: I don’t want us to add infusions to all ascend pieces as it quickly blows out agony and makes the new +1 system more complicated. Keeping it to rings and back items makes the known quantity of agony resistance predictable.

#314 - Feb. 25, 2014, 5:27 p.m.

videoboy.4162:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I sort of feel bad for Chris already. I tried to keep my posts short, but every time I come back to the thread I see walls of text that are “formatted”. It’s still difficult to get through.

I really wish people could be more concise, use more lists, and less walls of text.

Anyway, I like a lot of the ideas so far. But it does seem the playerbase is all on the same page here. It would be beneficial to get some developer interaction to see what page they’re on. (But I can’t imagine trying to soak in this many words at once, so I suspect that’s why we aren’t getting too much red yet).

Things are much much more accessible already and whilst we can still improve I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for giving it a try.

Loads of devs have commented to me about the topics being much easier to consume and think about.

So thanks everyone.

Chris

If she feels bad for you, she should go check out the Ranger Thread. I feel so sorry for poor Allie. =(

Allie and the team are doing a great job and the majority of the discussion is very useful to. Really pleased so far with the CDI topics.

Chris

P.S: Fingers crossed!

#399 - Feb. 26, 2014, 9:48 a.m.

Moon.7310:

Using fractals to tell story:

Proposal Overview
Fractals should be used to tell as more about the lore/history of Tyria.

Goal of Proposal
Increase the amount of lore used for the fractals and creating new fractals which story and background informations. This is such a good oppertunity to tell us about things that happende before GW2, things that could happen in the future, things of an alternate version of Tyria.

So an interesting challenge we always face when trying to make any type of dungeon content more lore heavy, is they are by their very nature highly repeatable content. Historically our design philosophy around group content that falls into that category is to try and provide enough context for the experience to make sense, but not heavily attempt to tell deep story in these instances.

While the core concept of using fractals to continue to show great moments in the history of Tyria is indeed totally in line with our own thinking as well, the struggle we always face is how much of that story we can really put there. Once you play it once or twice, you really just want to actually play the content and not wait around for all the story moments, scenes, cinematics, etc. This can lead to a problem we used to run into in Gw1 where some people in the party really wanted to see the story, and others had played it before and wanted them to hurry the heck up.

Our work around for this for Thaumanova for example was to provide a story version of it that was around during the living world release with far deeper exposition, and the current fractal version today that tries to focus on the game play. Similarly, story dungeons are really intended to be played a handful of times to get the story, and explorable mode dungeons are very story light since they are intended to be re-playable based on the core content.

What kind of fun ideas can you come up with to help allow us to get more story into the fractal experiences, without the cost of slowing down the core re-playability of the game play that is at the heart of the fractal content?

#403 - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:02 a.m.

Romo.3709:

How about Story Mode fractals, where you could pick a fractal you want to experience. Then upon arriving to said fractal we could experience the story behind thus level hence learning more about the history and idea behind the design of each and every fractal. To make it actually rewarding we could have a achievement system in place for each level, so everyone would play it at least once. And maybe a reward at the end (30s should be sufficient as it would be much shorter than a regular dungeon story mode) and some experience. It would also help new players get a hang of fractals a bit more understanding the layout and mechanics behind every level.

We could do something like this, but when ends up happening is the work involved ends up being a lot of additional work to basically build something people play one or two times and then are done with it. In that time, we could have probably half built another real fractal, which I think probably would be better for the game over-all. Maybe the real question would be → How do we try and get across better lore and stories with the current fractal system?

#405 - Feb. 26, 2014, 10:04 a.m.

spoj.9672:

But on to the point of explorable modes not being heavily story driven. Why does the new aetherpath in Twilight Arbor still have unskippable cutscenes and needlessly long dialogues? This is a major reason a lot of players avoid the path.

This is a perfect example of why heavily driving a lot of lore and story into something that is intended to be a group re-playable experience isn’t a great idea, and something typically we try and avoid. Thus the challenge here, to get across these cool stories, without the cost of the pacing of the fractal experience!

#440 - Feb. 26, 2014, 1:46 p.m.

Hi Folks,

Just a quick note to let you know i am SUPER busy today but will try to catch up from page 7 this evening or late this afternoon.

Chris

#458 - Feb. 26, 2014, 5:35 p.m.

Randulf.7614:

Tyson.8492:

ColinJohanson.2394:

spoj.9672:

But on to the point of explorable modes not being heavily story driven. Why does the new aetherpath in Twilight Arbor still have unskippable cutscenes and needlessly long dialogues? This is a major reason a lot of players avoid the path.

This is a perfect example of why heavily driving a lot of lore and story into something that is intended to be a group re-playable experience isn’t a great idea, and something typically we try and avoid. Thus the challenge here, to get across these cool stories, without the cost of the pacing of the fractal experience!

An idea would be to incorporate Lore Scrolls that can be earned by completing achievements within the fractals or made to be a drop kinda like the blueprints from bags that when you piece them all together, you get the Lore story told either through a cinematic or a simple slide show with text, similar to the new Atlas content. This would allow players to experience the Lore outside of the fractal and not weigh down the team waiting on a cinematic to complete. I think it would be really cool to have the chance to experience some lore like the Edge of Steel in the Arena fighting gladiator style, or even reliving a dragonspawn battle with Destiny’s Edge. Seeing the dwarven race driven underground…..I am sure you get the picture. Have the scrolls pertain to the story related to the fractal in which it came.

I personally think a well made fractal either tells its own story in the case of the Ascalonian city fractal, or allows you to conjure up a story in your head for it. The cliffside fractal does this to perfection for example.

Having said that, I like the lore blueprint idea. That gives re-playability for casuals like myself with no interest in higher tiers.

I also love the idea of Destinys Edge fractals, maybe as a playable set you can choose inside. The arena, the dragonspawn fights, battling Kralkatorriks minions and the death of Snaff – all key moments in the book which could be played out.

This is a really good point:

I personally think a well made fractal either tells its own story in the case of the Ascalonian city fractal, or allows you to conjure up a story in your head for it. The cliffside fractal does this to perfection for example.

And one we should always aspire to regardless of additional exposition of law.

Chris

#489 - Feb. 27, 2014, 1:34 p.m.

Wethospu.6437:

Solypsys.1876:

—

• Please for the love of god remove “rolling,” not only is swamp my least favorite fractal but it is now impossible to get any of the other “initial” fractals such as underwater. A couple of the tier 2 fractals can be dropped to tier 1 (aetherblade hideout) and rolling needs to be eliminated

How would you prevent restarting the run? Even if you could, what about people splitting up and having 5 roll attempts? Very likely to get a favorable map.

To be honest, I would appreciate if people focused on how to implement their ideas. It’s easy to have nice ideas like “fix problems, add fun stuff, make people happy” but actually implementations might be much trickier.

Like all the people telling how dredge or rewards have to be fixed. I’m sure they are well aware of that. But what they would (probably) like to hear is how they should be fixed.

I agree Wethospu. It is much more useful for folks raising issues if they provide suggestions for how to fix said issues (-:

Chris

#510 - Feb. 27, 2014, 5:03 p.m.

Hi Folks,

Good discussion. I am enjoying it. The discussion about re rolling is very insightful.

I would appreciate it if you could put some ideas forward for Leader-board mechanics.

Specifically in regard to the fact that I was unhappy with us putting out Leader-boards in their previous functionality (having lots of folks sitting at lvl 50 was not ideal) and therefore the feature was held back.

Obviously we have given Level 50 Leader diversification a lot of thought but it would be awesome to hear your proposals. Note there are a lot of logic problems in the solutions in this area so please do think about associated risks.

Cheers

Chris

#518 - Feb. 27, 2014, 5:21 p.m.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This is a really good point:

I personally think a well made fractal either tells its own story in the case of the Ascalonian city fractal, or allows you to conjure up a story in your head for it. The cliffside fractal does this to perfection for example.

And one we should always aspire to regardless of additional exposition of law.

Chris

I do believe that more things can be added to help us conjure up a story though. Perhaps some more elaborate cave drawings or tapestries that tell a story without words. (Which leaves it up to us to interpret them)

I’ve been transformed into a dolphin quite a few times… but it doesn’t make me wonder why. (Up until now) But if there was a shiny glowing largos that showed up as we arrive that starts singing and turns us into dolphins … that would make me wonder. Or if we were to swim through an enormous trumpet that turns us into dolphins… that would also make my mind wander.

Things in fractals can be crazy and random, but I prefer the things that make me wonder. Like that colossus in cliffside, which is one of the most impressive and epic unexplained stories I’ve ever seen. This is not just a giant, the giant is a prisoner, and guarded by priests. These 3 ingredients are enough to make my brain start spinning stories. While the purposeless krait, giant jellyfish and dolphins don’t connect into story-spinning at all.

I love the passion and drive to further expose lore through the Fractals. This is something we will be super mindful about moving forward. It is after all a key pillar of the Fractals.

Chris

#519 - Feb. 27, 2014, 5:23 p.m.

Savoy.6824:

Why are none of the devs discussing the over abundance of ascended rings. There have been several proposals around these but not any comments by the devs on those proposals. Are they not helpful?

Just because we don’t reply doesn’t mean that we aren’t discussion or reading the proposals and discussions being put forward in the thread. It would be a huge evolution for us as CDI members if we could just get over this ‘Assumed’ barrier.

Chris

#529 - Feb. 27, 2014, 6:58 p.m.

Merus.9475:

Actually, if there’s reward discussion…

Proposal Overview: Introduce a wider variety of items into fractal loot tables, biasing it in favour of karma, crafting materials, and items with high resale value.

Proposal Goal: Make fractal drops weirder, differentiate fractal rewards from dungeons and the open world, and create a source of T6 materials that is more efficient than farming gold from dungeons and buying them on the TP.

Functionality: Instead of the normal, blue and green weapon-heavy loot tables, fractal enemies would be more likely to drop retired living world items (e.g. ballot papers, molten scrap), Set 1 miniatures, karma and luck items, and consumables that can be bought for karma (e.g. rocks, Ogre Pet Whistles). They would also drop Mist-Infused Bags, which would contain T6 (and sometimes T5) crafting materials (including inscriptions), living world materials (quartz, sprockets, spores) and ectoplasms. They would never contain rare crafting materials (i.e. lodestones).

A player’s fractal reward scale would determine how likely they are to get the more unusual drops, and how likely they are to find a Mist-Infused Bag instead of the bag that enemy type normally drops.

Sub Proposal: In addition, very rarely, players may find a Mist Crystal of Valor, which when consumed awards a repeatable achievement worth 1 point.

Risks: Increasing the variety of dropped items may make bag space much more of an issue. Introducing a source for some items (Set 1 miniatures) may cause the price to plummet, making them unrewarding as drops. Increasing the supply of T6 mats also increases the efficiency of farming up gold and then buying them on the TP. The algorithm that decides drops may, in practice, prevent many of the drops unique to fractals from appearing.

Absolutely we can discuss rewards.

Chris

#530 - Feb. 27, 2014, 6:59 p.m.

MokahTGS.7850:

I also would like Fractals (and to a lesser extent, Dungeons) to evolve to allow for 2-5 player scaling. I know they are currently designed for 5 people, but I’d like to see the balance code reworked in such a way that 2 people could run through a fractal and be rewarded for that level scale. Obviously 5-man fractals would reward more, but I personally just want to run through them with my wife…currently that isn’t possible.

Call it “Casual-mode” for Fractals.

Personally I would like to see Fractals be able to be 5+ as well with associated risk/reward mechanics.

Chris

#604 - Feb. 28, 2014, 2:01 p.m.

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I would appreciate it if you could put some ideas forward for Leader-board mechanics.

Why do we still desperately trying to put in something that Fractals doesn’t need? It was a bad idea then, it’s still a bad idea now. There were many people voicing their concerns about their fractal habits being seen by the public. The discussions went on so far as people asking if they could opt out of the Leaderboards all together. That was never addressed just like many other topics around Fractured update.

I think the idea should be just scrapped and forgotten. The time should be instead invested in redesigning one particular fractal level that doesn’t even have to be mentioned to be understood which one is being called out. Along with new rewards system and perhaps new items.

In other words, please don’t waste man-hours (which you will most likely have a finite number of, that can be put towards fractals) on something that majority of fractal players never asked for nor wanted to begin with.

Instead let’s focus on the major things: balancing and rewards, because that’s where the main issues are laying right now. Not the lack of Leaderboards.

Please, if you can discuss it with us. What would you like to see changed? How you feel about time investment in fractals?

There is no ‘desperate’ need Romo. It is simply something I am interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on. The discussion so far has been very good.

Also please don’t assume that just because we are discussing or not discussing something that it either is or isn’t being given attention.

Chris

#608 - Feb. 28, 2014, 2:18 p.m.

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There is no ‘desperate’ need Romo. It is simply something I am interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on. The discussion so far has been very good.

Also please don’t assume that just because we are discussing or not discussing something that it either is or isn’t being given attention.

Chris

That’s completely understood Chris.

My intention is not assuming anything at all, I assure you. But with so little attention we’ve gotten over the past few months, I’m very nervous about what message you guys going to get from us.

I love fractals for what they are, even at the state they are right now, even though I still cringe every time I see that underground tunnel after a loading screen.

I hope you don’t misunderstand my stand on the topic at hand. I care for this part of the game more than any other area, even though I don’t spend as much time in it as I used to before the last patch.

I’m just glad that the conversation is being heard and hopefully thoroughly reviewed with attention it deserves. I apologize if I ever sound out of line.

Thanks for your clarification Romo. The conversation is very much being heard. CDI is an integral part of how we develop and we value it very much.

Also thank you very much for your passion in this area and your commitment toward this CDI. I am hoping we can continue to discuss many ideas around this topic.

Chris

#635 - March 1, 2014, 12:15 p.m.

phys.7689:

Blaeys.3102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

MokahTGS.7850:

I also would like Fractals (and to a lesser extent, Dungeons) to evolve to allow for 2-5 player scaling. I know they are currently designed for 5 people, but I’d like to see the balance code reworked in such a way that 2 people could run through a fractal and be rewarded for that level scale. Obviously 5-man fractals would reward more, but I personally just want to run through them with my wife…currently that isn’t possible.

Call it “Casual-mode” for Fractals.

Personally I would like to see Fractals be able to be 5+ as well with associated risk/reward mechanics.

Chris

This is something I didnt even consider as part of the discussion, but love seeing it and think it deserves more attention/discussion.

The idea of fractals with different sized groups would go over insanely well in my guild. Just last night, we had 7 people wanting to do fractals and had to arbitrarily leave two friends out of the run.

Been doing this for so many years in MMOs with 5 man content that it’s become the norm. This single change would really set GW2 apart and give us a way to better play with friends (and as a GM of a large guild, it would allow me to schedule a guild fractal night without having to worry about leaving people out).

as long as they dont balance fractals around 5+ people, i dont mind, but also you have to realize no matter what number they pick, people will get left out.

From a brain storming standpoint I think 5+ fractals would be their own entity within fractals and thus be balanced for 5+ only.

Chris

#636 - March 1, 2014, 12:17 p.m.

Just a quick note to let you know i am up to date.

I am assuming that you all feel that for example a Dredge rework is higher priority than say a rework to rolling?

Chris

#715 - March 2, 2014, 10:30 a.m.

phys.7689:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Just a quick note to let you know i am up to date.

I am assuming that you all feel that for example a Dredge rework is higher priority than say a rework to rolling?

Chris

Why do you personally think those two issues are way more important than getting a System in place that makes Fractals challenging ….. and more stuff

Though i think Patrikan maybe overly passionate, i have to agree, that in the big picture of what fractals needs, and the evolution of fractals in general, these issues are small in comparison.

These are balance fixes, they dont really evolve fractals and make them more interesting to that many more players, high level or low level. but yeah if you had to choose between those two it would probably be dredge for most i think.

but taking a look at dredge, I’d say the larger problem is that fractals as is, represents a race to complete the daily as easily as possible. Dredge is hated partially because it is a bikitteniment to that goal.
By changing the focus of fractals to be less of a lowest possible time to beat daily, you will probably fix both problems, and future problems with fractals that are short or masterable, and fractals that are long, and not easily mastered.

Point is, award people differently for doing different fractals, change the focus from being beat as soon/easy as possible to beating whatever challenges are thrown at you.

that said, dredge does have some design issues that are probably fundamentally off, even if the length doesnt change.

I am simply trying to determine the relative priority weighting that this CDI group has around this two areas.

Chris

#718 - March 2, 2014, 10:37 a.m.

dutchiez.7502:

spoj.9672:

Adding dragonite into fractals would be nice. Atm dungeon runners are forced to do wvw or open world to get their dragonite. And they have no shortage of emp fragments and bloodstone dust.

God yes! Please add dragonite as a reward to fractals or dungeons in general, so the dungeon runners who don’t enjoy zerging content but do enjoy having BiS gear can stop grinding temples!

I will discuss this with the rewards team and find out their opinion.

Chris

#719 - March 2, 2014, 10:47 a.m.

Orpheal.8263:

Re-Rolling:

hide spoiler

Simple fix, remove the surprise gameplay around it. Let players clearly choose, whichever Fractal they want to play, but reward each different string of choices differently in regard of effort/time relationship.
Simple rule, Simple outcome. No problems with Re-Rolling.
If you simply want people to do not something specific, remove the issue that leads to the problem (surprise effect) and compensate the removal with an improvement of the reward system, that gives out better rewards for people, that spend more effort in doing the fractals compared to the lazy people, which want only to speed rush through the fractals.
Theres absolutely no NEED to rework anything about the Dredge Fractal.
Don’t change it, only because alot of people are too lazy to do it cause of its length and the time it takes to do it.
Don’t waste your time and ressources on such 100% total unneccessary changes, which in no way improve the Fractals at all as a whole

Use your time and ressources and improve Fractals with something, that has a high value for the gameplay of FotM, like new features that keep this gameplay content fresh and interesting.

Thoughts about Top 3 Priorities now

hide spoiler

So in regard of importancy the top 3 things that ANet should focus on for Fractals for now only are:

• Improval of the Fractal of the Mist Rewards (Fractal Relic Vendor, more stuff for Pristine Relics in regard of all kinds of Ascended Equipment, Money Reward at the End, much bigger usage of Mist Essence materials, they drop to rarely, make a better reward out of them especilly for FotM, these materials should also be gainable in WvW, basically everywhere in the Mist, not just only in Fractals.

• Redesigning Stabilities more into a kind of Fractal Gambits which aren’t automatically forced upon you based on the fractal level, but are also a wide array of chooseable Gambits to manually raise the difficulty for the group and if you take them, to raise the difficulty, you could raise the rewards for your group.
  Theres no need to have like 50+ different instabilities, when just 10 or so would be more than enough working as Fractal Gambits in the way like Gambits worked in the Crown pavillion to make the content harder and at the same time more rewarding.
  Doing this I think it would be also good to use this opportunity to completely remove the silly AR Grind out of the whole FotM Concept. That something like this found even into the game is really irritating, when you think about ANets no grind philosophy
  Completely remove Agony and AR out of the Game and replace AR with a more useful new stat, that is useful for the whole game and not just only for Fractals.

Something like Dexterity, a Stat that could have influence on Skill Recharge Times of Heal/Elite and Utility Skills that for example every 25 Points of Dexterity, Recharge Times of these Skill Types get reduced by 0,005%

• Add new Features, like my mentioned Heroic Fractals (BMP like Multi-Part Story Fractals, that could be used to give us GW1 Missions/Lore and Novel Lore especially in playable form in GW2. Such thigns are it, that improve FotM as a Feature massively and keep players interested in playing Fractals.
  Adding contantly new Fractals in general is, what alot of people want to see naturally, because havign always to do the same Fractals gets borign naturally over time.
  But Heroic Fractals, compared to Normal Fractals would be something, where Anet could scratch the Balance from Fractals from new and design them to be played either SOLO, or as a 5+ man group.

Think on a War in Kryta-Fractal, where you could play it for example as a Legion Mission that scales up differently in regard of how many players participate, which could feel like some kind of Raid, if say like 20 people want to do it with you.
But you could also decide to play that War of Kryta-Fractal alone and everythign would scale down in it to be playable as Solo-Content.

Then again there are lore driven options for Fractals, like my wanted Ghosts of Ascalon-Fractal, which simply naturally allow only for a maximum of players, liek the lore has basically playable characters in the lore.

Excellent exercise in terms of ‘reduction’ of the proposals and re factoring of your opinion in light of the discussions.

In a similar way to the exercise that Orpheal has under taken it would be wise now to ask you all to pick 1 area that you would prioritize above all others having has the chance to have seen everyone’s opinions around each others proposals.

Chris

#720 - March 2, 2014, 10:52 a.m.

phys.7689:

SorrowsEmbrace.8120:

The issue isn’t rolling, its how disproportionately short swamp is, such that its worth spending 5 minutes rolling for it. If people were re-rolling the first fractal based on which one they had the most fun with, I guarantee this would not be an issue. People would play and let play. If you want to “fix” rolling, make swamp longer.

People throw around the word exploit in this forum like its nothing. An exploit is an offence that will get you banned. From the feedback here we know the devs know about the practice of re-rolling, and they are open to discussing the pros and cons. There’s no need to use loaded language to try and bolster your argument.

well if you take a step back and ask the question, what would you rather fix rerolling or dredge, its essentially saying whats more important, creating a more varied experience, or making it less time consuming/annoying.

the consensus is that speed/and ease is more important than variation to most people. I blame the reward system that prioritizes speed and ease. If the rewards were based on how long/difficult it was, people wouldnt care that much about rolling the shortest/easiest, and people would be trying to get better at dredge (i admit dredge is out of balance, and designed kind of annoying)

i think the rewards is probably one of the biggest issues with fractals, id say the other major issues would be agony progression being empty, grindy and sometimes backwards, and variation/replayability of fractals.

dredge i see as more of a balance issue, than an indicator of evolution of fractals

Astute post.

Chris

#723 - March 2, 2014, 11:16 a.m.

Randulf.7614:

Chris apologies to post in this thread about a sep issue but, it might be worth post weekend some additional attention in the Ranger CDI. The community is trying to keep discussion moving, but it has lost direction and management. Could really use the “pep ups” this thread has had since inception.

Hi Randulf,

Thanks for the heads up. One thing for sure is that it is a much bigger thread (-:

Personally i think Allie and the team are doing a good job. I know the team has been discussing the proposals and discussions that they have seen in the thread.

Please note that I agree with their needing to be a guiding hand but do remember that the devs consider themselves peer members of the CDI group and thus there really shouldn’t be an expectation for them to comment all the time. Like me, they probably read, digest and evolve their own design philosophy based on the discussions. And at its core that is the huge value the CDI brings to GW2.

One thing I would like to point out is that whilst I spend portions of my weekend on the CDI that does not mean that this is expected of other team members. If anything my behavior is bad because as it sets an example to the community that they then expect to see replicated by other staff members and thus puts undue pressure on the team.

Chris

#725 - March 2, 2014, 11:44 a.m.

Randulf.7614:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Randulf.7614:

Chris apologies to post in this thread about a sep issue but, it might be worth post weekend some additional attention in the Ranger CDI. The community is trying to keep discussion moving, but it has lost direction and management. Could really use the “pep ups” this thread has had since inception.

Hi Randulf,

Thanks for the heads up. One thing for sure is that it is a much bigger thread (-:

Personally i think Allie and the team are doing a good job. I know the team has been discussing the proposals and discussions that they have seen in the thread.

Please note that I agree with their needing to be a guiding hand but do remember that the devs consider themselves peer members of the CDI group and thus there really shouldn’t be an expectation for them to comment all the time. Like me, they probably read, digest and evolve their own design philosophy based on the discussions. And at its core that is the huge value the CDI brings to GW2.

One thing I would like to point out is that whilst I spend portions of my weekend on the CDI that does not mean that this is expected of other team members. If anything my behavior is bad because as it sets an example to the community that they then expect to see replicated by other staff members and thus puts undue pressure on the team.

Chris

No criticism intended and no one expects a reply over the weekend, but it had been a while since a previous guiding hand from the lead dev of that thread. Sure they are doing a great job, but also there was expectation of much greater interaction hence the delay in getting the threads up and running. I don’t think the thread has derailed, it would just be a shame to see probably the leading CDI topic not get the direction it desp requires and thus have negative impact on future threads.

More of a heads up really, where it goes from there is really in someone else’s ball court – I’m happy just reading atm

Thanks Randulf I appreciate the heads up.

Note my reply wasn’t strictly directed at you. I just wanted to take the opportunity to remind folks of core purpose of the CDI.

Thanks,

Chris

#727 - March 2, 2014, 12:20 p.m.

videoboy.4162:

Chris,

Perhaps it would help the Ranger thread, if Allie were able to periodically make a post similar to yours: “I’ve just caught up on pages 7-13, now to discuss these pages with my team!”

I think most posters know she’s doing a great job, but a small post like that to show she’s still around would probably calm the masses, by reminding them that she really is there and paying attention.

(In a slightly related note, I will gladly beg you to run the future Elementalist CDI. =D)

Back to this thread:

Do you have any thoughts/opinions/suggestions on the Dredge or the re-rolling issues being discussed so much in this thread?

Hey Videoboy,

I will mention your suggestion to Allie. At the end of the day though it is up to the CDI Topic owners to connect with their CDI group in their own way.

Regarding your questions. As a player I think Dredge could do with some work and I agree with many of the proposals that have been put forward in this area (note this is a not a statement around development in this area).

Regarding the rolling discussion. I am less opinionated about this particular topic and am still reading through the groups proposal’s and discussion points.

Chris

#780 - March 3, 2014, 11:44 a.m.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Thanks for taking the time to scroll through dozens of pages and respond to us chris. We really appreciate it!

Thanks to you all for being so passionate about the game and supporting the CDI. Your collaboration in this area is extremely value to the game and the team.

I really appreciate everything you do.

Thanks

Chris

#781 - March 3, 2014, 11:50 a.m.

Nike.2631:

Maybe we can get some insight from our Host:

Chris, what do you see as the long term value proposition of Fractals? Not necessarily the company policy, just your take as a well-informed designer. Why should players keep coming back after getting their rings & backpack and/or getting to level 50? What is the lasting appeal of this content? You’ve mentioned a blue sky dream of large-group fractals. Any other outside-the-box wishes that might help us better grasp the scope of changes this discussion might precipitate?

Hi Nike,

I am hoping that we can inject more lore and epic moments into the fractals. That we can transport player’s to even more iconic periods of Guild Wars history.

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

I am hoping that we can build on the strong foundation that we have with base Fractal mechanics and continue to build challenging encounters through strategic gameplay and strong ‘team’ centric inter-dynamics.

I as a player also hope that we can make fractals more rewarding, especially in regard to ascended acquisition.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Fractals are one of my favorite parts of the game and these are some of my wishes for their evolution.

Chris

Edit: I was also asked what my thoughts on rolling are: As a player i have no issue with that particular system as it currently stands.

I was also asked about Dredge: As a player I would love to see some work done on dredge.

#792 - March 3, 2014, 1:04 p.m.

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I am hoping that we can inject more lore and epic moments into the fractals. That we can transport player’s to even more iconic periods of Guild Wars history.

Woohoo! New content .

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

“Introducing the Foreboding Fractal – Dessa’s probes have locked onto a new fractal hinting at what may come to pass as the Living Story advances into its second season.”

With a firm plan at the outset something like this could be a very compelling narrative tool.

I am hoping that we can build on the strong foundation that we have with base Fractal mechanics and continue to build challenging encounters through strategic gameplay and strong ‘team’ centric inter-dynamics.

I’m going to tease you that the word ‘fun’ appears nowhere in your post .

I as a player also hope that we can make fractals more rewarding, especially in regard to ascended acquisition.

As the tier matures, I think we’re going to (have to) see continuing adjustments across all play modes. I’m still eager to see more possible improvements from the vertical progression thread work their way to Live. My alts are waiting .

I hope this answers some of your questions. Fractals are one of my favorite parts of the game and these are some of my wishes for their evolution.

Thank you. It does nicely in matters of looking to the future. I foresee in the next CDI Evolution thread I’ll again be asking for threads to include a Primer that helps us better understand “where we are at now – Arena’s Perspective” as a launch point for our flights of fancy .

Please do note these are the things I would like to see as a player. This is not an announcement of additional content or a change in design direction.

I am simply joining in the conversation and passing on my thoughts. It becomes very difficult for me to be a group member of the CDI if everything i say is going to become some kind of ‘News’.

Anyway I am sure you understand my point,

Chris ‘Fun’ Whiteside

#795 - March 3, 2014, 1:12 p.m.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

Maybe we can get some insight from our Host:

Chris, what do you see as the long term value proposition of Fractals? Not necessarily the company policy, just your take as a well-informed designer. Why should players keep coming back after getting their rings & backpack and/or getting to level 50? What is the lasting appeal of this content? You’ve mentioned a blue sky dream of large-group fractals. Any other outside-the-box wishes that might help us better grasp the scope of changes this discussion might precipitate?

Hi Nike,

I am hoping that we can inject more lore and epic moments into the fractals. That we can transport player’s to even more iconic periods of Guild Wars history.

What if we could send players forward in Fractal time?

I am hoping that we can build on the strong foundation that we have with base Fractal mechanics and continue to build challenging encounters through strategic gameplay and strong ‘team’ centric inter-dynamics.

I as a player also hope that we can make fractals more rewarding, especially in regard to ascended acquisition.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Fractals are one of my favorite parts of the game and these are some of my wishes for their evolution.

Chris

How set are we on the current fractal structure in this regard? (An adventure of 4 semi-randomly picked mini dungeons)

Because I think that with a different structure, the lore possibilities can be enjoyed by a lot more people than just the hardcore fractal crowd. (Since reaching those bits of lore can be quite a hassle in the current system, especially if they are on the third and fourth fractal tier)

I would really like to see fractals of the mists as an explorable area. Where players can travel through the mists at their own risk. Where party sizes can differ between fractals. And where we can feel the thrill of exploration as true pioneers. (Going further than any NPC from ‘our’ Tyria has traveled before)

Doing something like you have suggested really comes down to man power and global GW2 development priority.

Chris

#796 - March 3, 2014, 1:14 p.m.

Nike.2631:

Very much so. Take it in the jovial spirit it was intended .

((Your signature made me laugh aloud))

Cool because I have this dream whereby one day we get to the point in the CDI where our mutual trust as community and developer is so strong that my voice is no longer perceived as being any ‘louder’ than anyone elses.

That is my dream (-:

Chris

#798 - March 3, 2014, 1:19 p.m.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Doing something like you have suggested really comes down to man power and global GW2 development priority.

Chris

But wouldn’t it be absolutely awesome?

Terkov.4138:

Proposal Overview
Rebalance of vitality and toughness of bosses.

Goal of Proposal
- Increasing viablity of condition based builds.
- Increasing build/gear diversity.

Proposal Functionality
Lowering health pool and increasing armor of bosses would encourage players to use condition based builds up to stacking limit before going into full berserker team. Rebalance should be done in a way that’d keep kill times same as they are now for full power oriented team.

Associated Risks
- Going from one extreme into another – too high toughness to vitality ratio could make condition builds too good. It’d be mostly fixed by conditions stacking limit.

I think it would be nice to have a variety of boss fights in this regard. Some where conditions really shine, others where they’re not quite as good.

This particular idea could be done through instability variables and it no where near as much work as creating an explorable version of the fractals (-:

FYI.

Chris

#830 - March 3, 2014, 9:26 p.m.

timmyf.1490:

Hey guys, I thought I might try summarizing the discussion so far, as it’s reached a length that I think makes it tough for people to jump in and contribute. We’ve seen a few “I don’t have time to read this, but here’s my idea [that has already been discussed]” posts so far.

I’m going to do this differently from the link-heavy versions we’ve had others do here and try to summarize the discussion so far. Hopefully some people find this helpful.

Rewards

Rewards have been a heavy topic of discussion, perhaps the most-discussed topic so far. Opinions on rewards vary, but tend to fall into a few core statements that seem to resonate with the community. Overall, Fractal rewards are insufficient compared to rewards in other game types. Suggestions for improving rewards vary, but include: increasing gold, providing other uses for regular and pristine relics, and adding upgradable Fractal armor (beyond just the backpack).

Time Required, Barriers to Entry, AR, and Dredge

One theme we’ve seen come up a lot, in different ways, is that Fractals represent a relatively large investment of time and perhaps gold. Getting started with Fractals can be challenging as there is not necessarily an easy way to learn the encounters due to the randomness of shard choice. Having 4 Fractals at a time can represent a significant amount of gaming for a group and may exclude players who only have an hour or less to play. Progressing deep into Fractals requires Agony Resistance, but that is bound to a character and can make progressing multiple characters through Fractals difficult and expensive. And worst of all, a quick Fractals run can be sidelined by an unlucky Dredge roll which can take many groups twice as long as other Fractals.

Solutions for fixing these problems vary, but include “saving” Fractal progress so single shards can be done at a time, a Practice Mode that allows groups to choose a single Fractal to attempt, some sort of AR-avoidance mechanism as a group buff or bundle, or even account-bound AR.

Dredge has pages of suggested fixes, but most of them center around reducing the total number of mobs, especially in the “clown car” encounter, or removing one of the 4 “parts” to the Fractal: button, hallway, Champ/clown car, final boss.

Rolling For Swamp

The most controversial discussion so far has been on the topic of “rolling” for the Swamp Fractal. There does not appear to be a consensus on this issue – there isn’t even a consensus that rolling is “bad” – apart from variable rewards depending on Fractal difficulty could be a way to reduce rolling. Some players even suggested allowing the group to vote on the Fractal at every stage.

Additional Fractal Content

There has been discussion surrounding adding new Fractals as a way to introduce new lore into the game or revisit unanswered questions. Suggestions for new Fractals have included using alternate versions of GW1 missions or dungeons as well as Fractal versions of events from the three Guild Wars Novels.

This is my own personal view of what people who might not be following closely should know to “catch up” a bit. There were topics discussed which I left out, some on purpose, others by accident, but I still think this is a relatively representative summary.

Thanks a lot TimmyF. Good work!

Chris

#860 - March 4, 2014, 12:46 p.m.

I can’t find it now but there was a post talking about secondary objectives and rewards for completion of said objectives.

We do this with the Grawl Shaman and I would like to see more of this in the fractals.

Essentially stretch goal objectives that add more optional difficulty but reward the players for completing the more difficult content.

The larger the sense of discovery and accomplishment the greater the overall experience in my opinion.

Chris

#864 - March 4, 2014, 1:17 p.m.

I have a few questions for the thread. Sorry I’m a bit late (though I have been reading)!

First, I want to stir the pot on Instabilities. It’s been brought up a few times but never really discussed. In the conceptual phase they seemed like a great way to add replayability to the Fractals. Simple math seems to concur. Even though we built roughly 90 Instabilities, we were only able to ship about 20 because QA had to test approximately 300 configurations of content. That seems like a lot of variety, but obviously there’s some problems. Admittedly, some aren’t very good and they’re sorted in a less-than-stellar manner. They might have been more appealing and/or made more sense had we been able to implement to full plan. But then again, maybe not. I’d like to know what you think. Is this a good system? Does it add to the Fractal experience? Would you rather have 30 new Instabilities or 1 new Fractal? Which ones do you like/dislike? From reading the feedback, I’ve already been gathering some assumptions:

• Additive content is generally well received (extra creatures, environment effect)
• Slightly less popular are combat modifiers (exploding enemies, flanking)
• Stat modifiers are the least interesting. Specifically DPS reducation is a terrible idea.
• It’s more interesting to make builds instead of break them. For example, make condition damage more important than negate it.

Next is the difficulty/progression question. Personally I’ve always felt that the difficulty scaling in Fractals is a bit redundant. After all, once the creatures have started to one-shot you, does it continue to matter that they keep hitting harder? I know this has been commented on, but I’d like to hear some thoughts on alternatives. If not difficulty scaling (or supposing difficulty scaling simply stopped at a certain level), what else would add meaning to progressing through higher level Fractals? How does that align with your goals, whatever they may be (rewards, defeating hard content, discovery, etc).

Finally I have sort of a meta-question which is: what place, if any, does random have in the Fractals? While it’s easy to dismiss it because of the drawbacks, I think it’s important to talk about the drawbacks of not having it (or having another system) would be. Assume we solve re-rolling and make Dredge more reasonable, does random fractal selection add or detract from your satisfaction of playing in the Fractals? Was it more interesting at one time than it is now? Can we compare that with Instabilities, which are very predictable? Imagine if we completely strip random out everything possible and conjure a system where you complete specific sets of combinations of fractal/instability/difficulty to build specific items. Does that entice you or sound like a big grind?

Thanks in advance for reading and I look forward to continuing the discussion.

#889 - March 4, 2014, 4:55 p.m.

It’s no surprise that the “add more mechanics” idea comes up a lot for difficulty scaling. Not only does it sound really great, it was also the original plan. Unfortunately it’s just about the heaviest approach we could take because it implies that every boss in the fractal needs to be updated and rebalanced for every tier that we add. Assuming 2 bosses per Fractal (and we never added new Fractals), every time we add a tier of difficulty we have to do this 30 times. I’m not saying we can’t do it; I’m saying it would be slow. Much slower than say, adding one or two new Fractals per tier with entirely new content.

What I actually don’t like about that approach is that it has a lot of filler progression. Hypothetical levels 51-60 would effectively all be the same. We thought the advantage of assigning an MI to every level was that it literally made every level unique and also avoids the re-rolling problem that fractal selection has.

Back on randomness/replayability/rewards: I think the intent has always been to make the Fractals a very replayable experience by using random to create semi-unique iterations through the content. But the extrinsic reward motivators work to the contrary, making random unfavorable for optimal gain.

I’d like to see more speculation on middle ground solutions which both add meaningful variety to the Fractals without forcing players to feel like they’re trudging through non-optimal reward paths.

Also, this is all just speculation. I’m not advocating or declaring an official re-work of any system here. Just exploring possibilities for the evolution of this and future content.

#972 - March 5, 2014, 1:24 p.m.

timmyf.1490:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Wethospu.6437:

Could you guys seriously stop this daydreaming? There won’t be perfectly challenging and fun content with unique surprises each time you run it.

This thread would be about 10 pages shorter if people thought, “is this proposal remotely possible considering development resources available?” before they hit Reply.

I too find this frustrating, but at the same time, I have an engineering background and am able to make rough estimates of the implementation effort.

I assume that a lot of people here are just fans of the game, not coders/artists/etc, and don’t understand that they’re asking for things that would take a 10-person team months and months to complete. Or more.

The most egregious requests, if anybody is wondering, center around user-generated content/sandbox features. That is way way out of scope. Full randomly-generated content is also likely out of scope, not necessarily due to coding, but due to QA/testing.

Now, all that said, that doesn’t mean that the devs won’t find some bit of inspiration in these ideas and use a scaled down, heavily modified version. So have fun, everybody.

Agreed. It is completely valid for the CDI to brainstorm, discuss and dream about things that they would like to see in the game as this could easily lead to more realistic ideation around a feature etc.

Chris

#980 - March 5, 2014, 2:12 p.m.

Romo.3709:

Also, Chris.
I’ve been trying to avoid the question for a while now, trying my hardest to contribute to this CDI as much as the time lets me, while trying to push this question to the back of my mind. It never seem to be a good time to ask it, but then again I don’t think it’ll ever be a good time to. But you once said that you will give your opinion on fractal reset after you gave it some thoughts. I was wondering if you got anything for us. Will we ever be compensated for levels we lost and those over multiple toons? Just stating if it’s not even a viable thing for discussion anymore would suffice.

I am pretty sure Izzy responded to this question a few months ago. I will check with him.

Chris

#997 - March 5, 2014, 3:59 p.m.

Ok as I thought my post has completely derailed the conversation. Please let’s continue discussing how to evolve fractals for the time being.

Thank you,

Chris

#998 - March 5, 2014, 4:10 p.m.

In regard to topics I would like to see (if that’s ok):

- Continued discussion about lore in fractals.
- Suggested scenarios (boss, encounter and level design) based on current mechanics and systems in fractals.
- Anything else that takes your fancy.

I am pretty well versed in all of your thoughts around rolling, rewards and leader boards now.

Chris

#1001 - March 5, 2014, 4:43 p.m.

Randulf.7614:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In regard to topics I would like to see (if that’s ok):

- Continued discussion about lore in fractals.
- Suggested scenarios (boss, encounter and level design) based on current mechanics and systems in fractals.
- Anything else that takes your fancy.

I am pretty well versed in all of your thoughts around rolling, rewards and leader boards now.

Chris

Putting aside your dev hat and any indications of inetntion etc etc

Out of nothing more than curiosity and get discussion back rolling…what would you personally “as a player/fan” like to see as a scenario. Given the whole the GW lore and history to pluck from?

For eg, I’d love something similar to the Ascalon fight, but with Ebonhawke and Kralk flying overhead branding half the area and you as soldiers fighting off branded so people could escape. That would be iconic!

Hi Randulf,

From a personal standpoint I would like to be part of the story surrounding Rylock’s Origin, specifically in which Rytlock whilst on a mission clashes with his Warband’s legionairre.

I think that would be awesome!

Chris

#1006 - March 5, 2014, 5:28 p.m.

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I am pretty sure Izzy responded to this question a few months ago. I will check with him.

I seriously hope not, because that would mean we somehow missed an announcement that “You’re just gonna have to lump it.”

Do the right thing on this one. Please.

Those players should be your ambassadors of fractaline awesome to the rest of the player base, not the most legitimately bitter voices.

This is off topic for the time being Nike.

Thank you.

Chris

#1048 - March 6, 2014, 12:38 p.m.

titanlectro.5029:

Just a quick procedural question.

When will this CDI thread cycle end, and when will the next thread to discuss the CDI process start?

That a good question. I am really enjoying the current conversation and ideas so I think until at least Wednesday next week and then the process evolution will follow shortly after.

I am going to be afk for a few days from tomorrow morning as I will be in hospital but as soon as I start feeling better and more awake I will catch up again on the thread.

Chris

#1049 - March 6, 2014, 12:39 p.m.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

In regard to topics I would like to see (if that’s ok):

- Continued discussion about lore in fractals.
- Suggested scenarios (boss, encounter and level design) based on current mechanics and systems in fractals.

Chris

I have put a lot of thought in creating combat scenarios that require more of the way we build our characters. I’ve linked to these scenarios in the past, but I’ll adjust them now for fractals and post them here in batches. (While also spicing up the lore) These are not full fractals, just encounters with a lot of focus on strategy.

Here are the first few:

The arena of Orr

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Background setting: We are gladiators in the prosperous Orr of the past.

The orrian king is a cruel tirant as well as a skilled magician, we have to fight our way out of the arena to eventually slay the tyrant.

The encounter:

The arena is a circle with poisoned spikes as a wall. The monsters in it use pushback skills or explosions to try and land players into the spikes, while the players must try to do the same to the monsters. These monsters try to stay well clear of the spikes and frequently return to the middle of the room. Some of them have stability that can be removed, which they’ll regain as their stability skill recharges.

Players will take damage from both the monsters and the spikes, but the monsters only take damage while they are poisoned by the spikes and they lose a lot of health from landing in the spikes. This would make it possible for teams with a lot of pushes to take out the monsters quicker than a team which only has a few. Although both will be able to kill the monsters eventually.

For professions without cc, they can make use of some of the weapons that can be found in the prison chambers that the fractal starts out in. These are not meant to deal much damage, but fairly good at pushing foes around.

Strategies pushed in this encounter: stability, push/pull and boon removal.

Three titans and the Door of Komalie

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Background setting: The gateway between Tyria and the Realm of Torment before the mursaat came in.

We see Komalie fighting demons in the Realm of Torment. She’s been at it for ages to keep the demons from building up an army of Titans at their foundry of failed creations. This time the Titans are too strong however, and she is forced to get back to Tyria. Three titans follow her into Tyria before she manages to close the door. They take her life and it is up to us to take them down.

The encounter:

Three mighty Titans are capable of blasting everyone to bits with a massive spell. However, the casting of the spell is a delicate ritual on its own and interrupting it is a very doable task. The titans are tough and it some time to bring one down. They’ll try to complete their grand spell very often, but any interrupt works. Once it is unleashed, no dodge will save you, only invulnerability might… for whatever the duration. The animation of the spell is a really obvious symbol forming above their ‘heads’.

A fallen Titan will spawn smaller titans that will try to bash your skull in while the team tries to keep the bigger Titans from ever delivering one massive spell. There is a fair amount of AoE, so stacking up to get the Titans together is rather risky.

Strategies pushed in this encounter: all interrupts.

Among the ranks of the stone dwarves

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Background setting: Between the rise of Primordius’ first minion and present day, the stone dwarves have been fighting destroyers. We join them in battle.

The encounter:

Both the dwarves and destroyers are very powerful NPC’s. This encounter would be all about supporting the stone army. Due to the sheer number of npcs and the strength of them, our own damage output pales in comparison. The support we can grant through area weakness, poison (to counter the destroyers healing), protection, retaliation, chill, reflects, stability, aegis, combo fields, might, and banners etc. are great though.
The players would have to move carefully, because the destroyers can take you out quite easily. More importantly, the NPC’s will try to ressurect you, lowering their arms.

It would be a battle that is so balanced that it takes quite a bit of time before it’s done but it would inevitably end in a loss if it weren’t for the players presence.

Strategies pushed in this encounter: support skills of all sorts.

I love these encounter ideas.

Chris

#1051 - March 6, 2014, 12:41 p.m.

Zelyhn.8069:

A quick question:

Are we going to see changes to Fractals anytime before November?

Hi Zelyhn,

Sorry I cant answer this question. We don’t give out development/schedule details as noted in my original post.

Chris

#1052 - March 6, 2014, 12:42 p.m.

Asia Skyly.7198:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I am going to be afk for a few days from tomorrow morning as I will be in hospital but as soon as I start feeling better and more awake I will catch up again on the thread.

Chris

Get well soon!

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Chris

#1059 - March 6, 2014, 11:34 p.m.

Moshari.8570:

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

titanlectro.5029:

Just a quick procedural question.

When will this CDI thread cycle end, and when will the next thread to discuss the CDI process start?

That a good question. I am really enjoying the current conversation and ideas so I think until at least Wednesday next week and then the process evolution will follow shortly after.

Roughly two weeks then. With CDIs a bit more in the public eye compared to over the holidays, that’s seeming more and more like a sound window of opportunity.

I am going to be afk for a few days from tomorrow morning as I will be in hospital but as soon as I start feeling better and more awake I will catch up again on the thread.

Ooof. Rest up. And as always, thank you for posting a note saying you’ll be stepping out for a bit. It helps calm our nerves .

((Don’t eat the lime Jell-O while you’re on the inside. Just don’t .))

Having just left a 4 day stay in the hospital….

I LOVED THE LIME-JELL-O!! Best thing they had. Oh and Chris ALWAYS ask for the salt and pepper packets (they don’t give you them unless you ask). Everything is way too bland otherwise.

Hi Moshari,

Thanks for the advice (-: and I hope you are feeling better.

Chris

#1077 - March 7, 2014, 3:41 p.m.

Estriella Faerie.4029:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The regular and loyal fractal players are not in it for one time lore stories and easy dailies and that means they are in it for fun, challenging, rewarding and replayable content.

Quoted for truth ! Lore can be nice, but the most important thing if you want fractals to stay active is replayability, and for this you need balance, rewards, and challenge.

Lore is an important part of the fractals and will continue to be. Replayability, balance, rewards and challenge in no way exclude the ability to continue to tell exciting and meaningful stories in Fractals.

Chris

Note: Just got back from hospital and going to bed.

#1078 - March 7, 2014, 3:43 p.m.

Moshari.8570:

I look at Fractals as a means for the Dev team to play. They do not have to follow lore exactly, it doesn’t even really have to make sense. Fractals are kind of an open sandbox for the dev team and I think they should embrace that….make some truly cool and unique fractals.

Its all about replayability and fun with fractals.

Examples of some interesting things that could be done with fractals: (remember, you can get wild).

A falling fractal: You’re falling, dodge the floating islands on your way down or go splat. Make sure you have a ranged weapon equipped since you will need to shoot at wyverns and eagles that are swooping in at you. Final fight is against a dragon which you have to destroy before successfully landing yourself in a pool of water.

A timed lava fractal. You are taking constant damage since you are in a volcano, run like heck to the other side while dodging the falling rocks. Make sure you grab the healing spheres as you go (provided by Dessa to help) to keep your health up…defeat the destroyer on the other end for an achievement and an extra chest (difficult to do with the constant lava damage).

I’ve listed others before (utilizing zephyrite skills, low-gravity fractal, etc etc.)

’I look at Fractals as a means for the Dev team to play. ’

Virtual high five!

Chris

#1097 - March 9, 2014, 2:17 p.m.

Hi Folks,

The team is now up to date with the thread and we will be asking anymore questions we have in the next few days. Meanwhile if you have anymore comments or suggestions I would suggest putting them forward as I think we will close this CDI on Monday.

One final note is as I have said before that there is room for both Lore and challenging content it is all in the content and therefore any argument in this area is pointless. Specifically Star Aces points are particularly well made.

I will be putting a summary up of our discussion before we close the thread.

Thanks all for the insight, proposals and discussion. I think this particular CDI has been pretty useful.

Chris

#1099 - March 9, 2014, 2:46 p.m.

haviz.1340:

“Lore people” will play fractals once or twice and move on to roleplay in divinity’s reach while more dedicated players will get bored because it will lack any sort of challenge except bigger numbers.

What should be done is to severely decrease the number of scales, the difference between 1 and 9 is trivial. Introduce complex mechanics for higher tiers (not just numbers) and make those god kitten cinematics skippable. Obligatory reset included.

I am so tempted to be hyper critical on this post but I won’t, as it isn’t this single comment that has been frustrating but instead a culmination of posts in the CDI.

Suffice to say this post emphasizes why this CDI has been pretty good and not great. In my opinion there have been to many posts that have either not been well thought out or the poster has not taken the time to get educated in the discussion before putting pen to paper, and more specifically too insular in terms of goal resolution instead of thinking about the broader audience.

I will leave it at that.

I am still interested in continued discussion around your boss/encounter mechanic ideas, Rewards and ways in which the fractals could be evolved moving forward to provide new types of challenge.

Cheers,

Chris

#1152 - March 10, 2014, 5:58 p.m.

Quick note: I am up to date and am finding most of the posts valuable as is the team.

Note i am still recovering and reading in between being asleep and awake.

I will be closing the thread soon and providing a summary. Probably Wednesday.

Chris

#1176 - March 11, 2014, 8:33 p.m.

Spoj The Second.7680:

The Lost Witch.7601:

If we move towards challenges that don’t really require combat, I’m afraid they would soon become one-dimensional. Since the challenge would basically be the same for these encounters: jump on time/jump far enough/craft as fast as you can. Whereas combat can have more depth, because we have more options available. Combat is what we build our characters for, why we spend a lot of time tweaking builds, finding whatever gear and build suits us best. Fractals is the place where combat becomes the most difficult. High level fractals are the place to be for combat enthousiasts.

There is a place for one-try puzzles though. We already have them in guild missions, bounties and puzzles. I just don’t think that fractals is the right place for them.

Agree with this so much. This is one of the biggest issues i have with the new fractals and the aether path. Too many puzzles. They shouldnt be in dungeons/fractals. Puzzle mechanics in fights are fine (seals on cliffside, agony rotating walls in aetherblade, buckets in dredge, collapsing floor in thaumanova atc). But the pure puzzles within fights without using combat and inbetween fights are just boring (barrage phases in mai trin, weapon test in molten, various puzzles in aether fractal and aetherpath in TA). If a combat element was added which allowed the speeding up of these timegated puzzles then I wouldnt have a problem with them.

Thanks for the feedback Spoj. Personally I am not a huge fan of puzzles but I tend to be a bit of an impatient gamer who just likes to smash things. What does everyone else think?

Chris

#1177 - March 11, 2014, 8:35 p.m.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

I agree this would be a great goal for us to have.

Chris

#1178 - March 11, 2014, 8:39 p.m.

Iason Evan.3806:

Guys,

Did the Fractal weapon boxes ever get added? If not, I think those should get added before any CDI stuff is implemented. If they did get added, then cool deal

We re looking at rewards now. Thanks for the reminder. I will check on this aspect of them again when I return to work on Thursday.

Which by the way will be when i summarize and close the thread )-: But then we will do a process evolution topic and then move onto our next CDI (-:

Chris

#1179 - March 11, 2014, 8:40 p.m.

Rylar.4807:

My apologies for adding a general proposal so near to the end, but this is something that has driven myself and other members of my guild a bit crazy, and I just have time now to post it.

Proposal Overview
Add repair anvils to each fractal instance

Goal of Proposal
Encourage groups that desire it to challenge and improve themselves by pushing against their current skill/gear limit, by allowing repairs within fractal instances.

Proposal Functionality
For my guild, fractals started to get really interesting and fun when we started to hit the upper limits of what our group AR/skill level could handle. We had repeated wipes on certain boss fights, but with each attempt, everyone improved and we got closer to beating them. This was really exciting and satisfying, until armor started to break, and we had no easy way to repair for another go, especially as we were on fractal 3. Despite wipes, we actually otherwise having a pretty good time, and didn’t want to just quit.

Currently, 4/5 party members in fractals can repair their armor using alt-F4 to disconnect, then rejoin their group after repairing. The instance owner cannot. I guess most groups get around this by bringing spare gear, or by purchasing repair canisters. This all seems unnecessarily awkward, and can give the impression that the game is pushing you towards the cash shop.

I think this is also exacerbated now that the longer/harder fractals come at the end of a run. Non-fractal-pros, like myself, may not realize that their group is running with low AR until they hit Fractal 3 or the boss fractal. I feel like the game should facilitate giving such groups the opportunity to overcome the challenge, rather than adding more layers of frustration. If tougher, more challenging fights are to come (yes please!), then I think adding within-fractal repairs will make meeting those challenges more fun.

Associated Risks
If I recall correctly from the pre-release days, armor repair is meant to act as both a gold sink, which it would continue to do here, and a mechanism by which the game signals to players that they are hitting an upper limit as to what their gear or skill can handle. Adding repair stations to each fractal instance might make this signal less strong, such that players can just keep repairing, and throwing themselves at content without adjusting their strategy.

Still some time for adding new proposals. Thanks for getting involved and sharing your ideas.

Chris

#1180 - March 11, 2014, 8:43 p.m.

Zok.4930:

It would be cool if Fractal rewards, like the relics, could be combined with tokens from other dungeons in order to get cooler prettier gear. Then people could farm combos of old dungeons and lower fractal levels (assuming they have no AR) in order to get special skins. It could improve the reward, get people into old dungeons, and provide a new (updated) path to acquire skins.
For example, instead of just 180 tokens from CoF for gloves, you instead need 180 CoF tokens, 180 SE tokens, 500 Fractal Relics and 20 Ectos. Now people are doing multiple dungeons and fractals to get gear, and doing multiple steps to get a piece of armor that is more unique and challenging to acquire. I think that would boost FoTM for casual players and get them interested in it as well because gear is attainable for casual players through relics.

Yeah a global ‘Dungeon’ reward system is an interesting idea. I will pass this on to the rewards team for their thoughts.

Chris

#1181 - March 11, 2014, 8:46 p.m.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

Proposal Overview
Queen’s Gauntlet “boasts” in fractals, in the form of Forced+Optional modifiers.

Goal of Proposal
Mods would increase variety within fractals at all levels of difficulty, as well as add another axis for balance and customization of the gameplay experience. This also gives an outlet for reworking Agony to be more satisfying to overcome.

Proposal Functionality
When selecting the fractal level, you can also select any number of Mods. These Mods remain in effect until full completion, as opposed to a single zone. The gain for the players is (as usual) better rewards.

As a secondary function, Mods could be added as scaling difficulty modifiers to fractals to replace agony. Each tier would apply a randomized Mod to the Fractal, scaled to the current fractal level. Agony Resist would reduce the individual effect the mods have on the player. These Mods stack as the player increases in Tier, eventually having to deal with multiple deadly modifiers at the same time, instead of a single Agony mechanic.

Associated Risks
Boast Preplanning: The inherent randomness of Fractal selection should prevent the players from planning which Mods to use on which runs, but a silver cost for adding Mods could help with this as well, creating a goldsink and preventing players from adding a Mod, starting a fractal, then bailing on it if they don’t like the fractal given.

Information Paralysis: Having too many modifiers in place at one time could cause unintended frustration, as opposed to fair challenge. I suggest Forced modifiers be very simple in nature.
Examples:
(Enemy Tier=Normal, Veteran, Elite, Champion, Legendary, Etc)

“[Enemy Tier] Enemies apply [Agony] Stacks of [Condition] on hit”

“Conditions from [Enemy Tier] Enemies last [Agony]% longer

“Fractal Level increased by #” (intensifying the other mods!)

Thank you for your time devs.

Thank you and everyone else who has put time toward constructive discussion in this thread. I and the team really appreciate it.

Chris

#1186 - March 12, 2014, 7:37 a.m.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Thanks for the feedback Spoj. Personally I am not a huge fan of puzzles but I tend to be a bit of an impatient gamer who just likes to smash things. What does everyone else think?

Chris

I’m a big fan of puzzles as content, but then I grew up with King’s Quest and I was the first in my house to finish Myst and its sequel Riven. So, I’m biased

I think, as you said before, Fractals or the world of Tyria at large is big enough for this sort of thing. There is the one treasure cave (the one with the Tears), though it needs some more checks on bugginess . . .

If you want to add Fractals like that, perhaps side attractions to the actual “vanilla” Fractals experience? Such as allowing a solo or small group puzzle instance. I could sketch out a few, or at least make a proper proposal post soon if it’s of interest to add them and not impact them directly into the standard Fractals run.

Personally I don’t mind the combat based puzzles, it is the environmental puzzles that I find frustrating sometimes. This said they do add variety and I know lots of player’s like them and therefore perhaps it is just a case of a careful balance.

I think the idea of different ‘types’ of fractals is really interesting. This said anything that is to divergent from the core will lead to polarizing opinion in the community I think.

Chris

#1188 - March 12, 2014, 7:47 a.m.

One Note Chord.5031:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

Since we’re reiterating things a bit here, I want to repeat one worry that a few of us raised about this particular kind of implementation: this would allow people to run level 1 fractals over and over and get skins, which devalues them.

One way to get around this, riffing on some suggestions earlier, would be to have the achievement give you a token you can trade into a merchant for rewards, with different rewards requiring different personal reward levels. Then maybe weapon skins could require a few tokens (if we get them every 100 fractals) and level 50, for instance.

(This still doesn’t address the other problem of letting us do something with skins we don’t want. Maybe we could turn unwanted skins into a tokens as well, at some exchange rate or other. It has the other problem of adding yet more currencies to the game, though, which may be unwelcome.)

This would still let you run level 1 fractals to get skins, but at least you’d have to make it to 50 first.

This is a similar idea to the previous posts about the Global ‘Dungeon’ Rewards with a slight twist on the system. I passed the feedback onto the Reward team and they like the idea. Like you say perhaps skins you don’t need could be converted to Tokens, this is a good idea.

Chris

#1189 - March 12, 2014, 7:49 a.m.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Goodness! You are up and working early. Such dedication! I hope you are feeling better, Chris. =)

Hehe couldn’t sleep. Feeling a bit better thanks Cedo. Back to bed shortly (-:

Looking forward to getting back into work.

Chris

#1190 - March 12, 2014, 7:52 a.m.

The Lost Witch.7601:

One Note Chord.5031:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I can bet this has been touched upon 100 times but just in case:

Make fractal achievements (like 100 fractals done) etc reward fractal skin boxes where you pick your skin. RNG is bad, especially with fractals. There should be sure rewards for those who aren’t blessed by RNG star.

Since we’re reiterating things a bit here, I want to repeat one worry that a few of us raised about this particular kind of implementation: this would allow people to run level 1 fractals over and over and get skins, which devalues them.

One way to get around this, riffing on some suggestions earlier, would be to have the achievement give you a token you can trade into a merchant for rewards, with different rewards requiring different personal reward levels. Then maybe weapon skins could require a few tokens (if we get them every 100 fractals) and level 50, for instance.

(This still doesn’t address the other problem of letting us do something with skins we don’t want. Maybe we could turn unwanted skins into a tokens as well, at some exchange rate or other. It has the other problem of adding yet more currencies to the game, though, which may be unwelcome.)

This would still let you run level 1 fractals to get skins, but at least you’d have to make it to 50 first.

Personally I think it would be a better idea to just introduce a vendor that pops up after beating a boss on level 50. (Within the fractal)

That way players that are good enough to do level 50 fractals don’t have to actually have reward level 50. (Which is fair enough if you do every level once, but a bit much if you spend most of your time helping friends and guildmembers level up.)

Besides that though:

If the end reward for completing a run of 4 fractals is good enough, players wouldn’t just do the first one. So we might not even need this structure.

I would like to warn against setting the bar too high though. I am already seeing a lot of very high material requirement in crafting & mystic forge recipes. These require either a lot of gold, or a lot of time to gather.

I ask that you keep a human perspective. Don’t look at the list of fractal players and divide the requirements so that the most active fractal players still have something to strive for. Because what may be in reach for them, is out of reach for ‘normal’ players. This is fine for some types of rewards of course, but if we’re looking at completely new skins or stats, I think not.

The main reason why I make this warning is because not all players are wise enough to let some things be. They will simply put in more time because the game ‘requires’ it, and don’t pay attention to the impact it has on their lives. Please base rewards on what you perceive to still be a ‘healthy gaming habit’, not on the top statistics of the gamer ladder.

This doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be anything for players that enjoy doing one thing in this game a lot though. But the incentive for them should be something other than ‘I need just two thousand more fractals and then I’ll have my legendary backpiece!’

If it seems impossible to make a fair reward track because some players already have incredible amounts of fractals done, then perhaps this achievement track shouldn’t be rewarded.

The same goes with the pristine relics though. Some players most likely have hundreds of them, perhaps even thousands. This doesn’t meant that some rewards should cost a thousand pristine relics.

Keep a human perspective! Don’t just look at the statistics.

Interesting idea about the vendor. I would add to it with the idea of perhaps their being vendors every 10 levels where appropriate that sell items and skins but the higher level the vendor the cheaper the items become and new items are added to higher level vendors etc.

‘Keep a human perspective! Don’t just look at the statistics’

I think this is a very well made point and we should always keep that front and center when thinking about rewards.

Chris

#1193 - March 12, 2014, 8:16 a.m.

Tub.4560:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think the idea of different ‘types’ of fractals is really interesting. This said anything that is to divergent from the core will lead to polarizing opinion in the community I think.

Well, if the fractal mechanics prevent you from implementing new and fun ideas, then I’d mark that as another point for changing the core fractal mechanics.

Solution A
Mechanics that would allow the group to choose their fractals have been proposed. If, say, each step offered two combat fractals and a puzzle one (randomly taken from the list of available fractals), players could always pick the playing style they like, without removing the randomness altogether.

Solution B
Another way would be to split the tasks between the group.
Imagine a jumping puzzle with lots of traps. There are buttons that fire the traps, and a horde of enemies (probably skritt) determined to push the buttons.

Three players need to traverse the jumping parts, standing on the end-platforms at the same time, while the other two need to defend the buttons.

Something like that wouldn’t work in the open world (since it’s impossible to do alone), nor in guild puzzles (since 20-man groups will just break the system), but it’d be perfect for a controlled environment with coordinated 5-man groups.

If not in the mists, where else are you ever going to implement all those weird ideas people keep having?

I was thinking about option A while i was writing my response. I don’t think that we plan to change Fractal accessibility functionality at the moment but your option would certainly be something to think about if we did.

I like option B and i think this is the direction we need to move closer to in regard to variety through a mix of environmental puzzle and strategic combat where appropriate. A paradigm we will definitely be thinking about moving forward.

Chris

#1194 - March 12, 2014, 8:22 a.m.

Romo.3709:

You’re finally being a little constructive with answers Chris. I’m happy to see that at least, even though the thread is closing Thursday as you mentioned. Those are kind of responses this thread needed since the very beginning. Like this idea might work because x, or this will not work because of y and z. Giving us ideas on what can and cannot be done, keeping our proposals constructive and on point.

Regardless, had a word with Izzy yet?

Hi Romo,

I have been recovering from surgery so please bear that in mind regarding my recent interactions or lack thereof.

Once again I would like to point out that just because a Dev does not respond to every thread or discuss every point does not mean it isn’t being discussed internally. This is not an exercise in massaging egos or placation. It is an exercise in listening and contributing where appropriate and bi proxy improving Guild Wars 2. I hope that this is something you can respect moving forward. Personally I respond when I have a question or when I would like to help push an idea forward.

Regarding discussion around the reset. I would have liked longer to have thought about it but sadly I have not been afforded that opportunity. Therefore the developer statements around reset stand and it is not a topic of conversation that I will be engaging in.

I hope that answers your question, albeit an answer you probably didn’t want to hear.

Chris

#1196 - March 12, 2014, 8:28 a.m.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Regarding puzzles:

I would really love to see fractals that mix up puzzle mechanics and combat more, because I currently do not feel the game is doing it enough. I’d like to see trap-filled rooms, where traps and enemies interact with each other in interesting ways. I would like to see us pulling levers, activating switches, opening doors, and choosing different roads, rather than a linear path.

I dislike gimmicks, like having to pull those blobs to the gears in the Aetherblade path of Twilight Arbor. But I like combat situations where awareness of the environment is important. A perfect example of that is in Team Fortress 2, where one of the maps features a sawmill, with the players fighting around the moving sawblade. The mechanic becomes an active participant in the combat, and also a tool for cover, and for taking out opponents.

I would also welcome more platforming of the light variety. For example, the jumps before the Jade Maw are quite refreshing, and I really like the platforming in the Cliffside Fractal. None of these are particularly hard, but they mix up the combat.

I agree with your first paragraph, and actually quite like the blob mechanics in Aether. I disagree with the final paragraph and that is only because I am rubbish at jumping puzzles.

Note though this is my personal opinion and not indicative of a direction I would enforce (-: (clearly)

Chris

#1201 - March 12, 2014, 9:06 a.m.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I agree with your first paragraph, and actually quite like the blob mechanics in Aether. I disagree with the final paragraph and that is only because I am rubbish at jumping puzzles.

Note though this is my personal opinion and not indicative of a direction I would enforce (-: (clearly)

Chris

Do you think it’s possible that we’ll see traps in the near future, that affect foes and players alike? Because one of the things I really enjoyed in GW1’s Sorrow’s Furnace, is that you could use traps against your opponents. You could lure them underneath crushers, and it had the exact same effect on them, as it did on us.

I like it when an encounter is like a sort of sandbox. Where there are all these interesting mechanics that interact with each other in dynamic ways. Where pressure plates are activated by players and enemies alike, and where the environment can be turned against the enemies. It mixes up the combat, and makes it less boring, more strategic.

I’d love to walk into a room some time, and just have the freedom to choose my strategy. Maybe there’s a trap on one side, that could be used to take out enemies (but it also blocks my way). And a lever on the other side, to deactivate the trap, but it’s guarded by a champion. And maybe a third path that is underwater and hidden, but which circumvents the trap, and allows the players to flank the enemy. However they’d better be ready for a big fight on the other side. And maybe there are traps that can be activated by enemies on purpose, unless the players catch up to them, and stop them dead in their tracks before they can do so.

I would welcome options, and dynamic mechanics. Not linear, but a bit more open.

All I can say is that i think that would be cool:

’Do you think it’s possible that we’ll see traps in the near future, that affect foes and players alike? Because one of the things I really enjoyed in GW1’s Sorrow’s Furnace, is that you could use traps against your opponents. You could lure them underneath crushers, and it had the exact same effect on them, as it did on us.

‘I like it when an encounter is like a sort of sandbox.’

Me to (-:

Chris

#1202 - March 12, 2014, 9:13 a.m.

Nike.2631:

I get it the audience is primarily smash and grab. That’s why when I initially suggested them, failure would quickly move you into another fractal at that tier. Puzzles and other far off the beaten path challenges could be introduced in a way that if you suck at jumping/hate puzzles/just wanna kill they wouldn’t bar your progress more than a couple minutes tops.

The other option remains to incorporate them as short cuts within traditional challenge structures. Imagine an update to the Snowblind fractal when upon approaching the Ice Elemental there is an alternative to harvest X trees, and a crafting station when a player with Huntsman or Artificer of at least 300 can process them and you throw the results at the elemental starting a bonfire that kills it instantly. You can fight or you can chop some lumber if there’s a suitable crafter present.

We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…

Another good paradigm for us to think about when we work on Fractals. Thanks.

Chris

#1207 - March 12, 2014, 9:25 a.m.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

I get it the audience is primarily smash and grab. That’s why when I initially suggested them, failure would quickly move you into another fractal at that tier. Puzzles and other far off the beaten path challenges could be introduced in a way that if you suck at jumping/hate puzzles/just wanna kill they wouldn’t bar your progress more than a couple minutes tops.

The other option remains to incorporate them as short cuts within traditional challenge structures. Imagine an update to the Snowblind fractal when upon approaching the Ice Elemental there is an alternative to harvest X trees, and a crafting station when a player with Huntsman or Artificer of at least 300 can process them and you throw the results at the elemental starting a bonfire that kills it instantly. You can fight or you can chop some lumber if there’s a suitable crafter present.

We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…

Another good paradigm for us to think about when we work on Fractals. Thanks.

Chris

Apparently you did not read his post at all. Because if you did you would realize he is talking about cutting down trees in what is supposed to ‘challenging’ content. Also, the last thing we need is more GW2 endgame that consists of us staring at the crafting menu.

Incorrect Dommmmmmmmmm.

I did in fact read it and personally i like it, specifically:

‘We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…’

Please try to respect the opinion of others.

Chris

#1210 - March 12, 2014, 9:41 a.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Underwater is largely a puzzle fractal, along with swamp. I find Underwater lacking entirely of interesting mechanics. Even the final boss is basically harmless. I would like to see an additional underwater fractal, but one that doesn’t have the gimmicky feel of, say, the dolphins, but one that entices exploration and interesting combat. The plants, I think, would be cool if they had some sort of relevance to the boss (like cliffside and seals). I dislike the “fractured” (pun intended and now i’m sad) nature of many fractals. I personally don’t care for puzzles, because they basically reward nothing, and whether players are in it for the rewards or not, I would rather be rewarded through the fractal with bonus objectives rather than unscaleable path puzzles that lead you to an unrelated boss.

Personally I feel the environmental puzzle aspects of Underwater are a little to much. The fractal itself adds variety in regard to the mix overall but I think it is better to get the balance right with any given fractal than have fractals themselves swing to far in any given direction.

I would prefer the Jellyfish to be more challenging also.

Chris

#1226 - March 12, 2014, 10:10 a.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m fine with that, then. I have always enjoyed uncategorized, and Maw. I just thought you meant SAB platforming.

I enjoy all three varieties of platforming, but I think simple and forgiving platforming is more suitable in Fractals. When I play something like the Snowblind Fractal, it bores me because there’s not that many height differences. Apart from the initial descend, there is not a single moment when you have to jump on to something. Same for Urban Battleground, not a single jump. Not even an easy one.

Thaumanova at least goes up and down a bit. And Cliffside is almost entirely vertical, which is also great.

Well, there’s no real reason for every fractal to feature the same platforming jump mechanic, that would get pretty stale for most people fairly quick. I honestly like Urban the way it is, apart from desperately wanting to build my own siege to take over Ascalon. I mean, I summon my golem suit just to pretend I’m doing it. Urban is my second favorite fractal, because it’s so vivid, and we know where it comes from so well.

I like Urban to. It is probably my favorite because it has great lore executed very well, and a sandbox style approach to path and combat.

I to would love to be able to have siege in this fractal (-:

Chris

#1230 - March 12, 2014, 10:11 a.m.

darkfiremew.5937:

Hopefully you’ll get well SOON Chris. We want you at 100% when you implement those new fractals/fractal changes .

Agreed (-:

Heading back to bed soon.

Chris

#1232 - March 12, 2014, 10:13 a.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m fine with that, then. I have always enjoyed uncategorized, and Maw. I just thought you meant SAB platforming.

I enjoy all three varieties of platforming, but I think simple and forgiving platforming is more suitable in Fractals. When I play something like the Snowblind Fractal, it bores me because there’s not that many height differences. Apart from the initial descend, there is not a single moment when you have to jump on to something. Same for Urban Battleground, not a single jump. Not even an easy one.

Thaumanova at least goes up and down a bit. And Cliffside is almost entirely vertical, which is also great.

Well, there’s no real reason for every fractal to feature the same platforming jump mechanic, that would get pretty stale for most people fairly quick. I honestly like Urban the way it is, apart from desperately wanting to build my own siege to take over Ascalon. I mean, I summon my golem suit just to pretend I’m doing it. Urban is my second favorite fractal, because it’s so vivid, and we know where it comes from so well.

I like Urban to. It is probably my favorite because it has great lore executed very well, and a sandbox style approach to path and combat.

I to would love to be able to have siege in this fractal (-:

Chris

We deserve arrow carts. And we deserve them now.

Trebs FTW!

Chris

#1271 - March 12, 2014, 2 p.m.

Iason Evan.3806:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Iason Evan.3806:

Guys,

Did the Fractal weapon boxes ever get added? If not, I think those should get added before any CDI stuff is implemented. If they did get added, then cool deal

We re looking at rewards now. Thanks for the reminder. I will check on this aspect of them again when I return to work on Thursday.

Which by the way will be when i summarize and close the thread )-: But then we will do a process evolution topic and then move onto our next CDI (-:

Chris

Thanks for the heads up Chris. I hope you are feeling better. Would you kindly let us know too if they are not in? Friends and I have been pushing into the 40’s (level wise in the Fractals in hopes of getting a box). Would be a shame to keep pushing for something that we don’t have a chance of getting because it isn’t in the game. Anyways, thanks!

I will get an update for sure.

Chris

#1272 - March 12, 2014, 2:02 p.m.

Phoenixlin.8624:

Has anyone said “remove dredge fractal” yet?

Many have given constructive criticism around how to improve the fractal.

Chris

#1274 - March 12, 2014, 2:10 p.m.

dutchiez.7502:

I have to say, I think what most high-level fractal regulars came here to do is complain about rewards, gear-gating and dredge and suggest higher difficulties, new interesting encounteres and revisions to old ones. But what it has come to is a lot of people, who I imagine don’t do the highest levels very often, suggesting things that don’t have a place in fractals at all or are directly against the wishes of the regulars and will only make things more tedious and uninteresting.

Please remember everyone, that fractals is supposed to be the place where the top of the PvE community can come to test their skill. Lore/puzzle mechanics can work in the background, but they need to make way for skill-based encounters.

Here is the design pillar for Fractals:

‘To provide a highly repeatable 5 man strategic instance experience that scales in difficultly as you progress in fractal levels whilst providing the opportunity to tell old and new stories from within the Guild Wars Universe.’

Fractals are designed to be accessible to all and to offer a wide variety of different emotions and experiences regardless of ‘Skill’ level.

No one category of gamer owns the Fractals.

The CDI is a ‘Community’ Design tool that allows like minded individuals to brain storm and discuss areas of the game they are passionate about.

If you want to make a valuable contribution you would do well to understand both of the above concepts.

Meanwhile please understand that none of the ideas put forward infringe on ‘your’ space.

Chris

#1278 - March 12, 2014, 2:21 p.m.

timmyf.1490:

dutchiez.7502:

Please remember everyone, that fractals is supposed to be the place where the top of the PvE community can come to test their skill. Lore/puzzle mechanics can work in the background, but they need to make way for skill-based encounters.

I’m curious for some dev feedback on this. Here’s what I see on the release pages…

Lost Shores – Original Release

“New Dungeon! Enter the Fractals of the Mists
Introducing a dungeon experience like no other—Fractals of the Mists! You’ll be pitted against a series of unique “fractal” mini-dungeons that get harder and harder as you progress, giving you unlimited levels of challenge! With great risk comes great reward, including new weapon sets, a back-slot item, new Ascended loot, and much more!”

Fractured Update

“Delve Into the Fractals of the Mists
Explore great moments from Tyria’s past and test your battle skills in this never-ending chain of dungeons that become more and more challenging the farther you go! Begin your battle through time and space in this infinitely challenging series of dungeons!”

Mistlock Blog – https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-changes-for-the-fractals-of-the-mists/

“For those not familiar with the current structure of the Fractals of the Mists, they’re like mini-dungeons which string together and present more of a challenge as you progress. On average, a single fractal should take 20-30 minutes to complete, depending on your group and difficulty scale.”

I don’t have a ton of time to dig up more quotes, but I get the feeling the point of Fractals is that they get harder as you progress, not that they are for elite players only. There are – and should be – lots of reasons to play Fractals. There’s nothing wrong with creating content that might appeal to a wider player-base, though I agree that it needs to be done carefully. (For example, there’s no reason to force people to watch cutscenes.) Perhaps some of the alternative paths disappear in higher levels?

If you want Fractals to get more development attention, maybe a good start would be making them accessible to more players? If content is designed for 1% or less of the player-base, doesn’t that mean it will be mostly ignored by the devs?

Just a few thoughts.

EDIT: Ha, Chris responded while I was typing all this out. Thanks for preempting me, Chris…

Correct:

‘I don’t have a ton of time to dig up more quotes, but I get the feeling the point of Fractals is that they get harder as you progress, not that they are for elite players only. There are – and should be – lots of reasons to play Fractals. There’s nothing wrong with creating content that might appeal to a wider player-base, though I agree that it needs to be done carefully. (For example, there’s no reason to force people to watch cutscenes.) Perhaps some of the alternative paths disappear in higher levels?’

Chris

#1301 - March 13, 2014, 2:38 a.m.

timmyf.1490:

maxinion.8396:

This is a great post, and I think summarizes the concerns of high-difficulty players quite well. The example you guys came up with is also wonderful. A++ discussion!

I do very much appreciate this as the highest Fractal scale I’ve ever attempted/completed is 25. So thanks!

I’m a strong believer that our different perspectives, if used constructively, can build something better than each of us individually could build.

More minds means better ideas, but the CDI will require us to put down our swords and axes for a few moments and try to find common ground. Not normally the way we react to different opinions on online forums…

I’m especially interested in our next CDI on GUILDS! <prods Chris> You heard me? GUILDS! <prod prod> ;-)

So Timmyf this is very interesting. I have been thinking for about a week now that Guilds would be a topic I would really like us to discuss next but I can’t remember (not 100% with it currently) if i stated that in this thread? (-:

Regardless we have to discuss with the CDI community if they want to continue with Devs choosing topics or not but it is interesting if I didn’t mention that I was thinking about guilds for others to be in the same mindset.

X-Files…..

Chris

#1302 - March 13, 2014, 2:30 a.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I must say that I am impressed with the way conversation has gone today. I am also saddened because right when I feel we are working so well together and being constructive, and having conversations (not just proposals), this thread will end soon. Very sad.

Thanks to everyone promoting good conversation.

And yes. We need siege in the Ascalon fractal because reasons.

Personally i feel that the conversation/ideation/discussion in this CDI has always been pretty good (We have certainly got a lot from it) but it has been clear tat there has been a pretty big divide in so called player types up until yesterday.So with that in mind in mind I am going to extend the CDI until Monday!

However if the conversation loses its value between now and then (Which sometimes happens at the end of a CDI topic cycle) we will close it.

Chris

#1302 - March 13, 2014, 2:39 a.m.

Purple Miku.7032:

Chris, I really hope you don’t miss my post here but I’ll understand if you do… based on how many of them you have to sift through.

My biggest desire for FotM requires me to highlight one of the bosses on this game and use it to compare with other fights found in GW2.

Giganticus Lupicus

This is by far one of the most engaging boss encounters in the entire game and something worthy of being bragged about. Whoever came up with the idea for Lupi was a genius. Even the lore behind him is intriguing…

This game needs boss encounters like this.

While I’m aware of the fact that very experienced players can take him down in under half a minute (a bunch of eles can take him down in 7 seconds, lol), it’s a boss that doesn’t require you to rely on other players unless you are very experienced yet at the same time can give a full team a great deal of difficulty.

Seriously, this is just the perfect boss encounter. Is there any chance of us getting boss fights similar to this in fractals? Molten Duo is nice, but the fight mechanics aren’t nearly as unique. While I do like that there is a “second phase” after the first of them is killed, compare it to Lupicus’s three phases each with unique attacks and behaviors.

Simply put, Lupicus is a legend in the PvE world of GW2 and I want to see more fights like this. I’m sure many others will agree that it’d be thrilling to have more encounters of this nature. Afterall… fractals is meant to be the “elite” content of the game, yeah?

—

PS:
Any chances we could have a fractal related to the fall of Orr or anything of that nature? I apologize for being so biased towards this aspect of the game’s lore… it’s my favorite.

I didn’t miss the post Miku (-:

And no piece of GW lore is of the table for consideration in regard to fractal creation.

Chris

#1303 - March 13, 2014, 2:33 a.m.

Wethospu.6437:

shogei.8015:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Mikuchan.7261:

hendo.1940:

For goodness sake, stop with these puzzle suggestions, if you want to scare off what’s left of your dedicated fractal community, just throw in a bunch of obnoxious puzzles like all of the terrible suggestions in this thread and watch how nobody can be kitten d to do FOTM anymore because it will end up as Aetherpath 2.0 where it’s not worth the tedium.

For goodness sake be more constructive?
Also, the entire fractal community is doing a puzzle fractal as it’s first fractal constantly so I really don’t see the problem.
Yes, Swamp is a puzzle fractal, hate to break it to you.

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated. Fractals is a place where people go for difficult combat in pve. If you want environmental puzzles you should be doing jumping puzzles and guild puzzles not fractals.

I enjoy the heck out of the wisps puzzle, and not just because it is fast when you do it right. That fractal almost always gets my group laughing at ourselves. We then move on to shred whichever boss we are given.

The uncategorized fractal with it’s lightning staircase and harpies is also a blast – and a challenging set of fights.

Personally I would find 4 all-combat fractals in a row to be tiresome and boring. I suspect that the people on this thread, the ones suggesting all the puzzle fractals, would agree with me.

Sure, simple and shallow puzzles work wonders if you find lightning staircase challenging / interesting.

Luckily not everyone thinks like you or this game would be really really boring.

I agree with Shogei personally. There is nothing wrong with variety. We just have to make sure we get the balance right. Not sure about your final comment Wethospu simply because you don’t have access to metrics to show you just how many people do or don’t like this kind of content and in design assumption is very dangerous.

Chris

#1304 - March 13, 2014, 2:43 a.m.

LordByron.8369:

well then i ll put an idea here…

I think devs should question why people skip or avoid particular content and prefer other sort of content in fractal…

Since today the only development guideline for fractal was “force them to do everything even if bugged or totally unbalanced”

Maybe its time to question if the issue behind it isnt a lack of quality.

Instability for example:

Did you ever thougt how Outflanked would work in a game designed to work with lag?
what about Mist Stalker when you are stun from cliffside seal and you can t do anything?

Wonder why MOST people avoided most instabilities?
Because they are NOT FUN.
Didn t data proves how most people hate them?
They add a new layer of unbalance….

Get your metrics see what people like, compare them and see the common points…
From there you can design better fractals and fix the old ones.

For example…the ascalonian fractal change was really awful, now you mostky have to wipe because npc’s AI is terrible.

And for once solve the issue of guardians having really too much impact in any fractal Group….

You can see they are almost mandatory from 30+

Or maybe, just maybe it could be different people like different things?

This said your point in regard to metrics is valid and we do indeed use it carefully to try to determine design flaws through game-state vs. player-state data.

Chris

#1305 - March 13, 2014, 2:50 a.m.

The Lost Witch.7601:

I believe that alternate paths are probably necessary in content that poses a challenge to the way we build our characters. Otherwise group requirements could become really strict. Which doesn’t work out in fractals at all, since we are posed challenges through a random selection. (It would lead to kicking people in order to get a specific profession)

We need to have alternatives to make it through, like:

• Access to environmental weapons that can offer us the skills we need.
• Support NPC’s we can choose that can fill the gap in our team.
• The option to pick our path. (Ignoring what we can’t do, perhaps picking a more lenghty but less tactical fight instead.)

Yeah i think alternate paths is a good idea especially with an associated risk and reward paradigm.

The AP idea can also refer to doing a boss differently like Shaman in Grawl.

Chris

#1310 - March 13, 2014, 4:40 a.m.

Wethospu.6437:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Wethospu.6437:

shogei.8015:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Mikuchan.7261:

hendo.1940:

For goodness sake, stop with these puzzle suggestions, if you want to scare off what’s left of your dedicated fractal community, just throw in a bunch of obnoxious puzzles like all of the terrible suggestions in this thread and watch how nobody can be kitten d to do FOTM anymore because it will end up as Aetherpath 2.0 where it’s not worth the tedium.

For goodness sake be more constructive?
Also, the entire fractal community is doing a puzzle fractal as it’s first fractal constantly so I really don’t see the problem.
Yes, Swamp is a puzzle fractal, hate to break it to you.

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated. Fractals is a place where people go for difficult combat in pve. If you want environmental puzzles you should be doing jumping puzzles and guild puzzles not fractals.

I enjoy the heck out of the wisps puzzle, and not just because it is fast when you do it right. That fractal almost always gets my group laughing at ourselves. We then move on to shred whichever boss we are given.

The uncategorized fractal with it’s lightning staircase and harpies is also a blast – and a challenging set of fights.

Personally I would find 4 all-combat fractals in a row to be tiresome and boring. I suspect that the people on this thread, the ones suggesting all the puzzle fractals, would agree with me.

Sure, simple and shallow puzzles work wonders if you find lightning staircase challenging / interesting.

Luckily not everyone thinks like you or this game would be really really boring.

I agree with Shogei personally. There is nothing wrong with variety. We just have to make sure we get the balance right. Not sure about your final comment Wethospu simply because you don’t have access to metrics to show you just how many people do or don’t like this kind of content and in design assumption is very dangerous.

Chris

Variety is good. Shallow encounters, not so much. Variety and deep encounters are not exclusive so I can’t understand why people keep pushing only one of them.

Yes, without metrics I can only speak for myself. Hopefully I don’t need any metrics for that.

If your metrics show that people prefer shallow encounters then I suggest focusing more on the living story instead of fractals.

And herein lies the issue Wethospu:

‘Variety and deep encounters are not exclusive so I can’t understand why people keep pushing only one of them.’

You are correct, variety and deep encounters are not exclusive. People aren’t pushing just one of them. They discuss areas of one and another in order to formulate opinion and ideation. This does not mean they are creating silos, they are just exploring how to make each individual area better in order to lift the overall combined experience.

You are, therefore, assuming something that just isn’t the case.

No one is attacking challenge in this conversation but some are being overly defensive and attacking perfectly reasonable brainstorming and discussion for fear of something that boils down to lack of understanding about what the CDI is.

Chris

#1311 - March 13, 2014, 4:43 a.m.

LordByron.8369:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This is the point…….but aren t you giving too much credit to small minorities non representing “the fractal community” just because their ideas are more in line with yours?

(see lore)

IF once again you will come up with a fractured 2.0 (that reduced fractal playerbase), you could understand what went wrong…..

‘This is the point…….but aren t you giving too much credit to small minorities non representing “the fractal community” just because their ideas are more in line with yours?’

No i am not. And those that like GW story, variety of gameplay and challenge therein are not in the minority.

Chris

#1328 - March 13, 2014, 11:54 a.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Zok.4930:

It would be cool if Fractal rewards, like the relics, could be combined with tokens from other dungeons in order to get cooler prettier gear. Then people could farm combos of old dungeons and lower fractal levels (assuming they have no AR) in order to get special skins. It could improve the reward, get people into old dungeons, and provide a new (updated) path to acquire skins.
For example, instead of just 180 tokens from CoF for gloves, you instead need 180 CoF tokens, 180 SE tokens, 500 Fractal Relics and 20 Ectos. Now people are doing multiple dungeons and fractals to get gear, and doing multiple steps to get a piece of armor that is more unique and challenging to acquire. I think that would boost FoTM for casual players and get them interested in it as well because gear is attainable for casual players through relics.

Yeah a global ‘Dungeon’ reward system is an interesting idea. I will pass this on to the rewards team for their thoughts.

Chris

FYI the rewards team really like this idea.

Chris

#1329 - March 13, 2014, 11:56 a.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

dutchiez.7502:

spoj.9672:

Adding dragonite into fractals would be nice. Atm dungeon runners are forced to do wvw or open world to get their dragonite. And they have no shortage of emp fragments and bloodstone dust.

God yes! Please add dragonite as a reward to fractals or dungeons in general, so the dungeon runners who don’t enjoy zerging content but do enjoy having BiS gear can stop grinding temples!

I will discuss this with the rewards team and find out their opinion.

Chris

Hi,

I thought I had updated on this but it looks like i didn’t. The rewards team likes this idea too.

Chris

#1330 - March 13, 2014, 11:58 a.m.

Michael Walker.8150:

Hi,

Great idea this CDI!

How about introducing past Living World content as “educational” fractals with less/little rewards but experiencing the whole Living World in one piece, kind of like a series’ DVD?
Or even scrap the idea of little rewards and make those “educational” fractals as hard as the others.

I know you are going to give us a summary of past events pretty soon but I’d still prefer playing through them.
And I think that fractals could be both, very hard and challenging for the people who really want that hard content and then something more story and dialogue driven for the explorer type of player.
Maybe include a guide-o-tron, or Taimi or both?

Seems like a way for adding more content while using already existing one.

Michael

This would be cool but I wouldn’t house it in Fractals.

You can also find a lot more CDI topics and info here Michael if you are interested:

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Collaborative-Development-Master-Sticky/first#post3662022

Chris

#1332 - March 13, 2014, 11:59 a.m.

Bart Weird.9671:

Of course you don’t like tht the hardest challenging content in fractals (lvl 80) could have been solo/duo’d most of the time, but was it really the reason to remove it? When do we finally see challenging content in fractals?..and i don t mean unavoidable agony which ticks for all your health whn entering combat if you don t have over 100 agony resistance.
I would rly appreciate some challenging content. Also make the mistlock instabilities random on each new fractal you can get, makes your experience at least a bit more exciting.

Hi,

I understand what you are saying in regard to instabilities but I really don’t understand the rest of the post. Could you take a little more time explaining what you mean please?

Chris

#1333 - March 13, 2014, noon

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Is the reward team also looking into Fractals-armor? I would love to save up for a Fractals specific armor, like we used to do in FoW and UW back in GW1.

I shall pass this on to the reward team. Note the reward team doesn’t always have the chance to read this thread, many other teams do though hence me passing on suggestions etc.

Chris

#1335 - March 13, 2014, 12:06 p.m.

Iason Evan.3806:

Chris,

Any word on my Fractal Weapon Box question from yesterday? No hurry, just thought I’d ask since you are around at the moment.

Not yet. I will let you know as soon as I have discussed it with the team.

Thanks for the reminder.

Chris

#1336 - March 13, 2014, 12:11 p.m.

Scorch der Juengere.7328:

Instabilities and Metrics

hide spoiler

LordByron.8369:

Wonder why MOST people avoided most instabilities?
Because they are NOT FUN.

Is it really that simple? For example, I found the Mist stalker (Mossman) instability really fun. More funny than fun in the sense of challenging. But nevertheless, I had a great time with my team. Nevertheless, I did not play it again. Perhaps I will someday, but it is rather unlikely. Because why should I do a level 31?
Of the people I play with, rather few are level 50 (me neither). So we prefer to choose a level such that people level up. That is why we often run 49 or 39 (depending on agony resistance). 39, by the way, is also a very funny level (enemies explode on death).

Now, I can’t tell what most people did. But what metric would tell you that I like Mist stalker? I would really prefer it to the 49 one (which you barely even notice… in fact, although 49 should be by now the one I’ve run the most, I just had to look it up what it does). I like some instabilities and dislike others. But most times they are not the reason I choose one level over the other.

Class balance

hide spoiler

For me as a player that enjoys the randomness of Fractals and is in no hurry to finish them, class balance looks fine. As long as people don’t push enemies randomly and are focused on the game, everyone is welcome in our group.
We once had a Necromancer who run some condition damage. We were quite surprised how much damage he did when combined with 25 stacks of might. I think all classes can bring something to Fractals. Guardian is not the only class with reflects and especially not the only class with defense against projectiles.

Different Perspectives

hide spoiler

timmyf.1490:

I’m a strong believer that our different perspectives, if used constructively, can build something better than each of us individually could build.

More minds means better ideas, but the CDI will require us to put down our swords and axes for a few moments and try to find common ground. Not normally the way we react to different opinions on online forums…

Agreed, but how to continue from there on?

Should we build more example encounters like the timmyf-dutchiez-boss (here ff.)?
And, just to note, some of the lore players have still to finish this job.

Should we build more examples of alternative paths like Tub for Snowblind (here)?

What I get from these examples, is that players want more choice. That leads me to a question: how many of you save the Inquest in Crucible of Eternity explorable? Do you like how it is done there? The morally decision aside, you can there choose to get a bomb that drains a good amount of the health of the next boss at the “cost” of an additional encounter. Would you like this in Fractals?

Randomness, on the other hand, seems to be a bit more debatable, as it does not align with speed-running very well. How important is this consideration? Some people here (including me) have spoken for more randomness, other for less.
Can we here find something that both sides are okay with?

I guess a Boss that behaves randomly (upon reaching 50% of his live, Boss will either transform into a kitten or into a puppy… each providing a different sort of challenge!) is also not what speed-runners would appreciate. Or is that okay?

Or what about the availability of alternative paths (see Tub above)? You know, there could be a speed-runners codex that disallows the usage of such paths. People that enjoy to take an opportunity that is given to them, on the other hand, can find the variety that they want. What about something along these lines?

It is great to see a different opinion in this discussion.

It just goes to show that you shouldn’t make assumptions that the way you play is the majority. That would be my first rule for engaging in any CDI regardless of topic.

Chris

#1337 - March 13, 2014, 12:13 p.m.

Romo.3709:

Chris, why has your post been edited so instead of you not engaging at the current time was changed to not engaging at all, ever. Are you stating it’s over?

I am.

Chris

#1338 - March 13, 2014, 12:14 p.m.

Faux.1937:

To bad Anet you put into the game the +1 agony Res items.

I would have loved to see all Items that give agony taken away and just have AR as a reward for your account for more fractals you do and fractal achievements you’ve done. Or making it like the Magic Find, where you have levels and must do Fractals to up the AR%.

ALOT less clunky and much easier to deal with, manage and to understand.

Is there anyway you would go to a Magic Find type of system for AR instead of what we have now?

Hi Faux,

I have asked Izzy to discuss this with you.

Chris

#1339 - March 13, 2014, 12:16 p.m.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

LordByron.8369:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This is the point…….but aren t you giving too much credit to small minorities non representing “the fractal community” just because their ideas are more in line with yours?

(see lore)

IF once again you will come up with a fractured 2.0 (that reduced fractal playerbase), you could understand what went wrong…..

‘This is the point…….but aren t you giving too much credit to small minorities non representing “the fractal community” just because their ideas are more in line with yours?’

No i am not. And those that like GW story, variety of gameplay and challenge therein are not in the minority.

Chris

Hey mr. whiteside I had a question/suggestion regarding fractal rewards. Is there any possibility that the devs could implement features in fractals that acknowledge solo, 3 man fractals. I saw earlier suggestions for it relating to people not being able to find groups. But what I wanted to ask if would Anet be willing to implement modes for solo or 3 man fractals where the fractals have the same difficulty as perhaps a 5 man, but give better rewards? Recently I have been running 3 man groups with my guildies in fractals 39-49. Its extremely difficult at higher levels, especially on dredge or shaman. We do it because we haven’t really felt any challenge from 5 manning high level fractals, and 3 manning it, even soloing if thats possible, is very very fun and challenging. It has sent us to put much more effort into our builds, even changing our skills/traits/utilities multiple times during a specific fractal depending on what boss or mob pull we are on. Is there any possibility that we could receive better rewards for 3 manning, 2 manning, or even soloing it(also those who do it with 4 people)?

Hi SkylightMoon,

I have asked Izzy to discuss this idea with you.

Chris

#1341 - March 13, 2014, 12:19 p.m.

Dalanor.5387:

yayuuu.9420:

How the hell can dredges dig in the metal platforms and pop out of nowhere? Are 1000 dredges hidden under the platform and they can turn into ghost, cross the metal plate and pop up? this is just stupid.

Not stupid, just not realistic which is fine in a “fantasy” game, but be immune to blind and still can’t see players under stealth is the same.

ps Don’t ever implement anti-stealth mechanics to dredge Chris or i will get murdered by the community. =]

Haha.

Chris

#1344 - March 13, 2014, 12:24 p.m.

Jandopo.2107:

Wow, look at those Amazing replies <3

Thank you for all the effort, Mr. Whiteside!

No worries I generally reply like this when I am at home. When I am working or more recently in recovery I am unable to reply like this.

Thanks to you all for being patient with me and adding all the value you have in this CDI.

Chris

#1345 - March 13, 2014, 12:27 p.m.

Wolfey.3407:

Chris,
What would you think about introducing special types of pets for Rangers within fractals, mostly as tamable rewards after the boss fight.

Examples:
Jade Maw – Once Jade Maw is defeated, a tamable Jade Crab spawns by the chest.

Molten Boss- Once the molten duo is defeated, a tamable Molten Hound spawns by the chest

Captain Mai Trin- Once she is defeated, a tamable Watchwork Moa spawns by the chest

Special ones:
Aquatic Ruins- If you get the Dolphin path, after killing the giant jelly fish, a tamable dolphin spawns by the chest.

Would give Rangers more pets that we have been asking for
Encourage more rangers to play fractals

I would worry that those Rangers that don’t do Fractals would feel left out. However i think this is a really interesting global reward idea so I will pass it on to the rewards team.

Thanks Wolfey,

Chris

#1348 - March 13, 2014, 12:53 p.m.

madmuffin.3968:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Wolfey.3407:

Chris,
What would you think about introducing special types of pets for Rangers within fractals, mostly as tamable rewards after the boss fight.

Examples:
Jade Maw – Once Jade Maw is defeated, a tamable Jade Crab spawns by the chest.

Molten Boss- Once the molten duo is defeated, a tamable Molten Hound spawns by the chest

Captain Mai Trin- Once she is defeated, a tamable Watchwork Moa spawns by the chest

Special ones:
Aquatic Ruins- If you get the Dolphin path, after killing the giant jelly fish, a tamable dolphin spawns by the chest.

Would give Rangers more pets that we have been asking for
Encourage more rangers to play fractals

I would worry that those Rangers that don’t do Fractals would feel left out. However i think this is a really interesting global reward idea so I will pass it on to the rewards team.

Thanks Wolfey,

Chris

I’m not sure if it’s 100% accurate but right now the wiki says Juvenile Wolves can only be found in the Eternal Battleground (which seems kind of odd, but assuming this is actually the case) that means there is already a precedent for location exclusive pets, else the same argument could be made that “Rangers that don’t do WvW would feel let out.”

If that is the case then we will remedy it. I will check. Thanks for the pointer.

Chris

#1350 - March 13, 2014, 12:59 p.m.

Orpheal.8263:

I’d like to hear from you in review of being a player, rather than in review of beign a Developer, what do you think personally about Lore Fractals that would work similar to the Bonus Mission Pack Chris.

Sadly I haven’t got about my suggestion yet any direct response, because i think it falled under the overall flow of the general discussion of more lore fractals being found positive by you.

But my suggestion wasn’t just all about more lore fractals, it was more based around the question of *how to add more lore fractals and how to unlock more lore fractal content over time to incentivize people to keep on playing fractals and not stop doing them directly after the first successful run after having seen some new lore"

I think the concept around the Bonus Mission Pack and how it was implemented into GW1 was perfect and it would be perfect also for Anet.

I for example would go buy Tomes of Memories in the Gemstore directly as account upgrades to receive this way access to very special Lore Fractals, that could be played either completely solo or as a 5 to xx person Group in relationship of it, if a Fractal would get designed as Raid Content to be able to be played also with more than 5 people, if the Fractal Gameplay Design allows for it through Up Scaling the Monster Density/Difficulty ect.

I made some pages ago a more detailed version on how for example a Ghosts of Ascalon-Fractal based on that Bonus Mission Pack Design with unlockable content, like readignb through a book with chapters and verses could work like.

I found the readable books in GW1 awesome and I’d love to see that feature somehow gettign back into GW2. Fractals would be the most fittign place for this feature, as the Fractals itself reminds me very much about the BMP.
The BMP was also very rewarding, did it offer to the player unique weapon skins as rewards only receiveable, if you bought the BMP and played through successfuly the missions of the corresponding books and if you completed the books, that worked like the dungeon diaries with complete entries everywhere, the book copied itself into a new clean one and the complete one could get used as a reward token to trade in for some massive exp, gold, karma ect. bonus rewards that was worth all of the effort in completing the book to turn it into the reward token.

I really also like the thought about it, that the Fractals are like some kind of huge *amnesia" of broken memories from the past, that we, the players have to collect to remember us on what happened in the past to reconstruct step by step more of our memories to unlock this way in the tomes of memories more new mission content from the lore.

Before this CDI gets closed, I’d really love to hear from you (or the reward team xD), what they think about that idea, because i think its alos a great way to make some profit also, if its content you get only through the gemstore to receive that way some optional new content that can reward you with lots of other new optional optical rewards, like new weapon skins, armor skins, lore based minipets from the past and so on …

PS:

Just as a reminder
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0c/Storybook.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/5/51/Gwen%27s_Story.png

PPS:

Not to mention that these books would be surely something awesome for the Art Teams also, because the books already have very nice art in GW1

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/c/c3/End_of_the_World_page.jpg

Hi Orpheal,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

I think we would not want to add another layer of complexity to fractals in terms of another branch but I would want to see us adding more lore to the fractals (ensuring this component is included as a wrapper with game play implications) should we create more.

Regarding the option to play with < or > 5 players, that is something I have asked Izzy to comment on so hang tight.

Chris

#1352 - March 13, 2014, 1:39 p.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Is the reward team also looking into Fractals-armor? I would love to save up for a Fractals specific armor, like we used to do in FoW and UW back in GW1.

I shall pass this on to the reward team. Note the reward team doesn’t always have the chance to read this thread, many other teams do though hence me passing on suggestions etc.

Chris

Hi,

So we discussed this idea. The fact of the matter (and I should have been easily able to answer this) is that armor is in high demand across the game and thus for the time being it would be unlikely that we would see a fractal only set.

Chris

#1353 - March 13, 2014, 1:43 p.m.

synk.8762:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I would worry that those Rangers that don’t do Fractals would feel left out. However i think this is a really interesting global reward idea so I will pass it on to the rewards team.

Thanks Wolfey,

Chris

Could you expound a bit on why this is an issue for you? There are pets that are available in a limited frame of areas and different level ranges, just like some weapon skins only drop in certain areas. If the difference between, say, a Jade Spider and a Cave Spider was purely cosmetic, then you’re not talking about vertical progression at all. The guy that has the Jade version has no advantage over the guy with the Cave Spider. All that’s going on here is cosmetic changes, and perhaps some bragging rights.

I honestly don’t see a difference between things like area specific Ranger pets and Fractal skins. Likewise, if players want WvW armor, they need to go to WvW. Or the massive amount of varied PvE that people need for Ascended gear. Or locking Cultural T3 behind a gold wall. They all require playing in a certain area of the game for more than a passing moment. In fact, I’d suggest that these are exactly the kinds of rewards that work for Fractals. It benefits the players that run them with a cosmetic benefit, without an imbalance. I believe that’s an excellent way to get people interested in the content without forcing them there.

I promise I’m not trying to be contentious here. I’d just like to get a firmer grasp on the how and why of rewards being matched with content.

Hi,

I don’t think you are being contentious at all and you put forward a compelling argument. However we try where possible to seed core gameplay rewards across the game. It seems like we have a few inconsistencies in the live environment so I will discuss this paradigm with the rewards team.

This said Ranger pets have abilities and putting a unique pet in the fractals with say unique abilities could be a huge barrier to entry for some players and that is where my concern comes from. The fact is fractal skins do no change the way a player uses his character whereas a pet with unique abilities does.

I hope this provides some more insight.

Chris

#1358 - March 13, 2014, 2:35 p.m.

Malchior.5042:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Is the reward team also looking into Fractals-armor? I would love to save up for a Fractals specific armor, like we used to do in FoW and UW back in GW1.

I shall pass this on to the reward team. Note the reward team doesn’t always have the chance to read this thread, many other teams do though hence me passing on suggestions etc.

Chris

Hi,

So we discussed this idea. The fact of the matter (and I should have been easily able to answer this) is that armor is in high demand across the game and thus for the time being it would be unlikely that we would see a fractal only set.

Chris

Hello Chris,

I take it you mean in high demand across all different development teams, such that it’s out of scope or not within sense at the moment to request artists to design a full set of armor to be acquired from only the fractals? That’s sort of the way I interpreted your response, given unique armor/weapons is always in high demand within the actual game world itself.

Also, I’ve sent you a forum PM regarding a conversation we had a couple weeks ago. Look forward to hearing your reply

Take care and get well soon!

Hey Malchior,

‘I take it you mean in high demand across all different development teams, such that it’s out of scope or not within sense at the moment to request artists to design a full set of armor to be acquired from only the fractals?’

Correct.

I will check my PMs shortly.

Chris

#1360 - March 13, 2014, 2:40 p.m.

Zyphent.2967:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Is the reward team also looking into Fractals-armor? I would love to save up for a Fractals specific armor, like we used to do in FoW and UW back in GW1.

I shall pass this on to the reward team. Note the reward team doesn’t always have the chance to read this thread, many other teams do though hence me passing on suggestions etc.

Chris

Hi,

So we discussed this idea. The fact of the matter (and I should have been easily able to answer this) is that armor is in high demand across the game and thus for the time being it would be unlikely that we would see a fractal only set.

Chris

Thats fair, just something else to put forth.
What about doing it like the Achievement armor, tying it to specific tiers.
For example, beating fractal 50+ lets you buy the helm, 60+ lets you buy the Gloves, etc.

This would both allow the team to take their time making it (release 1 piece with 10 Fractal levels in a single patch), as I doubt they have time to make and model a full armor set at once, while also providing more incentive to climb higher in Fractals.

Hi Zyphent,

I will discuss the idea with the rewards team, specifically in regard to a slow burn creation of an armor set.

Thanks,

Chris

#1361 - March 13, 2014, 3:01 p.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Iason Evan.3806:

Chris,

Any word on my Fractal Weapon Box question from yesterday? No hurry, just thought I’d ask since you are around at the moment.

Not yet. I will let you know as soon as I have discussed it with the team.

Thanks for the reminder.

Chris

Are you referring to Ascended weapon boxes in fractals?

Chris

#1367 - March 13, 2014, 3:55 p.m.

videoboy.4162:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi,

I don’t think you are being contentious at all and you put forward a compelling argument. However we try where possible to seed core gameplay rewards across the game. It seems like we have a few inconsistencies in the live environment so I will discuss this paradigm with the rewards team.

This said Ranger pets have abilities and putting a unique pet in the fractals with say unique abilities could be a huge barrier to entry for some players and that is where my concern comes from. The fact is fractal skins do no change the way a player uses his character whereas a pet with unique abilities does.

I hope this provides some more insight.

Chris

Will you elaborate on how you feel about his idea to make the pets just be new skins, without any unique abilities?

Personally I like that idea.

Chris

#1368 - March 13, 2014, 3:59 p.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Iason Evan.3806:

Chris,

Any word on my Fractal Weapon Box question from yesterday? No hurry, just thought I’d ask since you are around at the moment.

Not yet. I will let you know as soon as I have discussed it with the team.

Thanks for the reminder.

Chris

Are you referring to Ascended weapon boxes in fractals?

Chris

He/She’s referring to a box of fractal weapons that lets you choose the weapon.

Ok thanks. I I wanted to ensure we were talking about the same thing.

Chris

#1369 - March 13, 2014, 4 p.m.

Right I will be back later.

Thanks for a good discussion today.

Chris

#1412 - March 14, 2014, 2:58 p.m.

Hi All,

Regarding the ranger pet idea thanks for the discussion. We are up to date on the pros and cons and there is really no need to continue discussing it (-:

I wanted to let you know i am super busy today and will not be fully caught up or responsive until tomorrow.

Chris

#1415 - March 14, 2014, 3:22 p.m.

Wethospu.6437:

Any estimation when this topic gets closed?

Monday. Unless we run out of steam.

Chris

#1434 - March 15, 2014, 1:48 p.m.

Hi Folks,

Just wanted to let you know I am up to date.

Chris

#1477 - March 17, 2014, 2 p.m.

Hi All,

I am not going to summarize every point raised in the thread but I am going to provide a summary of the points that stood out to us the most that you all made:

1: Dredge:
Dredge is frustrating and this is compounded by the overall length of the Fractal.

2: Make rewards more accessible and relevant:
- Allow players to spend their unwanted rewards to get rewards they actually need.
- Look at the general drop rate within Fractals.
- Take a look at the delivery of items to ensure they are more useful to individual players.
- Create a global dungeon reward system using a token system for example.
- Think of new rewards that cater more toward to Fractal players in general.
- Think about risk vs reward vs Time with global rewards.
- Do not depreciate the significance of certain rewards like Fractal skins.
- Clearer communication/info i needed around the Fractal Weapon boxes.

3: Re-rolling:
Work on the higher priority issues before tackling this area.

4: Level Reset:
- Do not do a reset moving forward.

5: Challenge:
- More of an emphasis on Instabilities and core game play challenge rather than simply agony moving forward.
- Add new types of challenge rather than reworking existing areas.
- Focus more on additional paths that reward players dependent on the interaction of said path. Note this also includes different strategies of goals achieved in certain encounters.
- Thanks for the tons of ideas for new encounters which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

6: Lore:
- Continue to have lore be a pillar of Fractals but ensure it doesn’t get in the way of the flow of the experience. For example, no un-skippable cut scenes.
-Thanks for the tons of ideas for new lore themes and gameplay which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

7: Tiers:
- Do a pass on which fractals are included in which tier in regard to risk vs reward vs time.

8: Accessibility:
- Think of ways to make it easier to get player’s into the Fractals, especially friends of existing players, specifically in regard to AR.

Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Thank you all for partaking in this CDI. The use of the proposal format worked out really well I think.

I will check back later today, update if necessary and then sticky the thread in the CDI section.

Chris

#1485 - March 17, 2014, 2:58 p.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am not going to summarize every point raised in the thread but I am going to provide a summary of the points that stood out to us the most that you all made:

1: Dredge:
Dredge is frustrating and this is compounded by the overall length of the Fractal.

2: Make rewards more accessible and relevant:
- Allow players to spend their unwanted rewards to get rewards they actually need.
- Look at the general drop rate within Fractals.
- Take a look at the delivery of items to ensure they are more useful to individual players.
- Create a global dungeon reward system using a token system for example.
- Think of new rewards that cater more toward to Fractal players in general.
- Think about risk vs reward vs Time with global rewards.
- Do not depreciate the significance of certain rewards like Fractal skins.

3: Re-rolling:
Work on the higher priority issues before tackling this area.

4: Level Reset:
- Do not do a reset moving forward.

5: Challenge:
- More of an emphasis on Instabilities and core game play challenge rather than simply agony moving forward.
- Add new types of challenge rather than reworking existing areas.
- Focus more on additional paths that reward players dependent on the interaction of said path. Note this also includes different strategies of goals achieved in certain encounters.
- Thanks for the tons of ideas for new encounters which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

6: Lore:
- Continue to have lore be a pillar of Fractals but ensure it doesn’t get in the way of the flow of the experience. For example, no un-skippable cut scenes.
-Thanks for the tons of ideas for new lore themes and gameplay which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

7: Tiers:
- Do a pass on which fractals are included in which tier in regard to risk vs reward vs time.

8: Accessibility:
- Think of ways to make it easier to get player’s into the Fractals, especially friends of existing players, specifically in regard to AR.
Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Thank you all for partaking in this CDI. The use of the proposal format worked out really well I think.

I will check back later today, update if necessary and then sticky the thread in the CDI section.

Chris

Added accessibility.

Chris

#1486 - March 17, 2014, 3 p.m.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am not going to summarize every point raised in the thread but I am going to provide a summary of the points that stood out to us the most that you all made:

1: Dredge:
Dredge is frustrating and this is compounded by the overall length of the Fractal.

2: Make rewards more accessible and relevant:
- Allow players to spend their unwanted rewards to get rewards they actually need.
- Look at the general drop rate within Fractals.
- Take a look at the delivery of items to ensure they are more useful to individual players.
- Create a global dungeon reward system using a token system for example.
- Think of new rewards that cater more toward to Fractal players in general.
- Think about risk vs reward vs Time with global rewards.
- Do not depreciate the significance of certain rewards like Fractal skins.

3: Re-rolling:
Work on the higher priority issues before tackling this area.

4: Level Reset:
- Do not do a reset moving forward.

5: Challenge:
- More of an emphasis on Instabilities and core game play challenge rather than simply agony moving forward.
- Add new types of challenge rather than reworking existing areas.
- Focus more on additional paths that reward players dependent on the interaction of said path. Note this also includes different strategies of goals achieved in certain encounters.
- Thanks for the tons of ideas for new encounters which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

6: Lore:
- Continue to have lore be a pillar of Fractals but ensure it doesn’t get in the way of the flow of the experience. For example, no un-skippable cut scenes.
-Thanks for the tons of ideas for new lore themes and gameplay which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

7: Tiers:
- Do a pass on which fractals are included in which tier in regard to risk vs reward vs time.

Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Thank you all for partaking in this CDI. The use of the proposal format worked out really well I think.

I will check back later today, update if necessary and then sticky the thread in the CDI section.

Chris

Thank you for understanding and including #4. I know it doesn’t mean that they won’t do it, but I’m so extremely glad that at least you see that we all need to hear that the consensus is it wasn’t a good idea.

Also, Colesy told me to read this post while in game, and said I might start fangasming while reading, and he’s right. Thank you Chris.

Thanks to everyone who contributed and for sharing your proposals and opinions.

Chris

#1487 - March 17, 2014, 3:03 p.m.

Iason Evan.3806:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am not going to summarize every point raised in the thread but I am going to provide a summary of the points that stood out to us the most that you all made:

1: Dredge:
Dredge is frustrating and this is compounded by the overall length of the Fractal.

2: Make rewards more accessible and relevant:
- Allow players to spend their unwanted rewards to get rewards they actually need.
- Look at the general drop rate within Fractals.
- Take a look at the delivery of items to ensure they are more useful to individual players.
- Create a global dungeon reward system using a token system for example.
- Think of new rewards that cater more toward to Fractal players in general.
- Think about risk vs reward vs Time with global rewards.
- Do not depreciate the significance of certain rewards like Fractal skins.

3: Re-rolling:
Work on the higher priority issues before tackling this area.

4: Level Reset:
- Do not do a reset moving forward.

5: Challenge:
- More of an emphasis on Instabilities and core game play challenge rather than simply agony moving forward.
- Add new types of challenge rather than reworking existing areas.
- Focus more on additional paths that reward players dependent on the interaction of said path. Note this also includes different strategies of goals achieved in certain encounters.
- Thanks for the tons of ideas for new encounters which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

6: Lore:
- Continue to have lore be a pillar of Fractals but ensure it doesn’t get in the way of the flow of the experience. For example, no un-skippable cut scenes.
-Thanks for the tons of ideas for new lore themes and gameplay which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

7: Tiers:
- Do a pass on which fractals are included in which tier in regard to risk vs reward vs time.

Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Thank you all for partaking in this CDI. The use of the proposal format worked out really well I think.

I will check back later today, update if necessary and then sticky the thread in the CDI section.

Chris

The Fractal Weapon Boxes still have not been addressed. They were used as a bullet point in the release of the “Fractured” Update and still are not in months after release. I try to not press stuff that is in the works because I know you all don’t like talking about stuff til it’s ready, but these were listed as being in and then were not and that is frustrating as a player and doubly frustrating when there is no update as to when they are going to be in. I hate being the “Negative Nancy” here, but it’s hard to want to discuss future things when things that are supposed to be currently in the game are not and have not been addressed as to why they aren’t. Sure, this goes with the rewards section of your summary, but my feelings on it are that they should be added post haste before discussing future implementations or at least addressed to the community as to why they aren’t in the game right now.

Thanks for all your hard work Chris and ArenaNet. It’s really and truly appreciated.

Noted (-: Thanks for raising it again though and your contribution.

Chris

#1489 - March 17, 2014, 3:06 p.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am not going to summarize every point raised in the thread but I am going to provide a summary of the points that stood out to us the most that you all made:

1: Dredge:
Dredge is frustrating and this is compounded by the overall length of the Fractal.

2: Make rewards more accessible and relevant:
- Allow players to spend their unwanted rewards to get rewards they actually need.
- Look at the general drop rate within Fractals.
- Take a look at the delivery of items to ensure they are more useful to individual players.
- Create a global dungeon reward system using a token system for example.
- Think of new rewards that cater more toward to Fractal players in general.
- Think about risk vs reward vs Time with global rewards.
- Do not depreciate the significance of certain rewards like Fractal skins.
- Clearer communication/info i needed around the Fractal Weapon boxes.

3: Re-rolling:
Work on the higher priority issues before tackling this area.

4: Level Reset:
- Do not do a reset moving forward.

5: Challenge:
- More of an emphasis on Instabilities and core game play challenge rather than simply agony moving forward.
- Add new types of challenge rather than reworking existing areas.
- Focus more on additional paths that reward players dependent on the interaction of said path. Note this also includes different strategies of goals achieved in certain encounters.
- Thanks for the tons of ideas for new encounters which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

6: Lore:
- Continue to have lore be a pillar of Fractals but ensure it doesn’t get in the way of the flow of the experience. For example, no un-skippable cut scenes.
-Thanks for the tons of ideas for new lore themes and gameplay which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

7: Tiers:
- Do a pass on which fractals are included in which tier in regard to risk vs reward vs time.

8: Accessibility:
- Think of ways to make it easier to get player’s into the Fractals, especially friends of existing players, specifically in regard to AR.

Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Thank you all for partaking in this CDI. The use of the proposal format worked out really well I think.

I will check back later today, update if necessary and then sticky the thread in the CDI section.

Chris

Bump with additions.

Chris

#1500 - March 17, 2014, 6:16 p.m.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am not going to summarize every point raised in the thread but I am going to provide a summary of the points that stood out to us the most that you all made:

1: Dredge:
Dredge is frustrating and this is compounded by the overall length of the Fractal.

2: Make rewards more accessible and relevant:
- Allow players to spend their unwanted rewards to get rewards they actually need.
- Look at the general drop rate within Fractals.
- Take a look at the delivery of items to ensure they are more useful to individual players.
- Create a global dungeon reward system using a token system for example.
- Think of new rewards that cater more toward to Fractal players in general.
- Think about risk vs reward vs Time with global rewards.
- Do not depreciate the significance of certain rewards like Fractal skins.
- Clearer communication/info i needed around the Fractal Weapon boxes.

3: Re-rolling:
Work on the higher priority issues before tackling this area.

4: Level Reset:
- Do not do a reset moving forward.

5: Challenge:
- More of an emphasis on Instabilities and core game play challenge rather than simply agony moving forward.
- Add new types of challenge rather than reworking existing areas.
- Focus more on additional paths that reward players dependent on the interaction of said path. Note this also includes different strategies of goals achieved in certain encounters.
- Thanks for the tons of ideas for new encounters which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

6: Lore:
- Continue to have lore be a pillar of Fractals but ensure it doesn’t get in the way of the flow of the experience. For example, no un-skippable cut scenes.
-Thanks for the tons of ideas for new lore themes and gameplay which the team has read and will impact our design moving forward.

7: Tiers:
- Do a pass on which fractals are included in which tier in regard to risk vs reward vs time.

8: Accessibility:
- Think of ways to make it easier to get player’s into the Fractals, especially friends of existing players, specifically in regard to AR.

Please post if you think I have missed a significant area from this summary.

Thank you all for partaking in this CDI. The use of the proposal format worked out really well I think.

I will check back later today, update if necessary and then sticky the thread in the CDI section.

Chris

Bump with additions.

Chris

Final bump and closing the thread.

Thanks all for your contribution and hard work. We all really appreciate it.

Chris