CDI- Character Progression

#1 - Dec. 13, 2013, 12:55 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hello Fellow Collaborators,

Welcome to the last CDI topic of 2013. In this topic we will be discussing Character Progression. The CDI rules are as follows:

Rules
1: This initiative is all about discussion.

2: We will not be disclosing information pertaining to what is currently in development.

3: Anger and emotion will have less impact than intelligent discussion.

4: Together we will share and evolve design philosophies which will impact how we develop the game moving forward.

5: Aggression and disrespect to a fellow community member or developer will not be tolerated, and in the extreme could lead to the shutting down of the initiative.

6: The teams primary focus is work toward the development of GW2 and therefore posting of discussion and commentary may not be as frequent as you like. Please do understand that the initiative is taken very seriously by us all and that we will be reading the discussions and joining in as often as it is possible to do so.

We will be talking about both horizontal and vertical progression and I hope we can stay focused on what is in game now and what we would like to see in the future.

The two main areas for discussion will be Horizontal and Vertical progression, however please understand that the commentary and ideation we are really looking for regarding vertical is around its accessibility in game.

Finally please note this is not a competition either between yourselves or the developers in regard to one up man ship. The point of this Initiative is to work together to make the game better.

Note: We will disclose the ideas we do or don’t like as a group but we will not discuss schedules or timing around implementation. If there is still concern surrounding how seriously we take community collaboration then please do take the time to think about how much impact the community has had on the working of this game over the year.

Here is a summary by the Lost Witch:

CDI Dev post recap: part 1
CDI Dev post recap: part 2
CDI Dev post recap: part 3

And a discussion about the thread on Massively!

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/17/flameseeker-chronicles-we-will-control-guild-wars-2s-horizonta/

Chris

#16 - Dec. 13, 2013, 1:18 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The two main areas for discussion will be Horizontal and Vertical progression, however please understand that the commentary and ideation we are really looking for regarding vertical is around its accessibility in game.

I’m not sure I understand this bit; could you clarify?

Hi,

To clarify I am looking forward to hearing the communities thoughts on speed of acquisition such as how long crafting time takes? or drop rates in fractals and other areas of the game etc.

I hope this adds some clarity.

Chris

#19 - Dec. 13, 2013, 1:19 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The two main areas for discussion will be Horizontal and Vertical progression, however please understand that the commentary and ideation we are really looking for regarding vertical is around its accessibility in game.

I’m not sure I understand this bit; could you clarify?

Basically:

  • How easy it is to attain the Ascended gear?
  • Is the balance of acquisition of Ascended out of whack between different game-modes (i.e. Easier in PvE than WvW, easier in the open world than it’s intended game mode [Fractals])?

Couldn’t have said it better myself DaiBish. Thanks.

Chris

#95 - Dec. 13, 2013, 2:47 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Fractal Progression Reset

As we were looking at the fractal reworks we wanted to change the relative values of how hard it was to work through the fractals, because of this we wanted to bring everyone to a common starting point. We knew this was going to be controversial but we really wanted everyone to be on an even play field and once we got the feedback about it we started looking into ways we could mitigate this risk. This is a common practice we do with all releases and risks and sometimes like with this one we were not able to do anything due to time constraints and tech. It’s wasn’t our goal to devalue peoples time and effort and when reworking stuff sometimes these types of tradeoffs happen. We wanted to create a new scaling paradigm that would give us more room in the future for adding fractals and we felt the current systems was harder to scale. Our original design was for players to go past 50 but this wasn’t able to happen in time.

#117 - Dec. 13, 2013, 3:12 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Wow….so the plan to do a summary every 3 pages (-: Well i think i am going to try and do one everyday starting with tomorrow in regard to this topic. Some great ideas and conversation so far, and lots and lots of it. Keep it up.

Chris

#131 - Dec. 13, 2013, 3:27 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Really good start to this topic folks. Excellent discussion, and really good ideas.

I am blown away, thanks everyone you have made my day. I love the CDI and so far this is a really good example of how I imagine it should be.

Romo regarding your last post I am going to spend some time thinking about how you feel and get back to you if that’s ok?

Chris

#211 - Dec. 13, 2013, 5:02 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Quick update to let you all know that I am keeping up to date on the thread and will do a summary and join the discussion tomorrow.

Chris

#222 - Dec. 13, 2013, 5:20 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Chris,

Before I really get into this CDI, I was wondering. Is there any info you can give us about the much-wanted Skin Wardrobe? I know I’ve watched an interview where Colin said that it was something ANet fel was really missing from the game.

- Is this an idea that is actually possible to add to the game?
- If so, is it something that would take a very long time to create?
- what are you personal thoughts on the idea?

I realize that you may not be able to answer all of those questions, but would you be willing to address this desired addition in some way?

It is an idea that we are certainly very fond of (-:

Chris

#238 - Dec. 13, 2013, 5:47 p.m.
Blizzard Post

A question to help direct the discussion a bit:

What are some of your favorite progression systems of all time in others? Be they horizontal, or vertical, just which ones really got you excited and were fun for you to continue to progress in?

For me, Final Fantasy Tactics is one I loved, where I was able to continue to unlock new jobs and advanced professions for my characters, as well as level up their abilities within those professions. It remains one of my all time favorite games, and one of my favorite systems of progression in any game. I’m also pretty darn fond of that Guild Wars game and skill collection.

#329 - Dec. 13, 2013, 9:20 p.m.
Blizzard Post

As chris said going to be hard to keep to a 3 page summary with this one but I’ll get started

Topics
*Fractal Resets
*Ascended Gear
*Horizontal Progression
*Vertical Progression
*Grind
*Art Progression
*Alts
*Gates
*Map progression
*Ascended creation time

There where a a lot more topics but I figured I’ll get a start before I head home

Fractal Resets
See my above post on this.

Ascended Gear
Horizontal Progression
Vertical Progression

I’m going to lump these three together and talk about all three. The goal of progression is for you to feel like your character is growing as you spend time in the game. It can also serve as a common system that the different playstyles of people can use as a common language to communicate their accomplishment between each other. For example saying I reached level 80 or have full ascended tells someone of your accomplishments but you could do that in many different ways.

Vertical progression
Some games choose vertical progression for this system and I think vertical progression has it’s place it’s a very strait forward system that has natural gating built in and makes you feel better when you get stronger and overcome those gates. The place where I feel it breaks down is when you start adding to a game. This changes the feeling of vertical progression as your accomplishments start to become a bit more of a moving target I think this problem hasn’t really be solved for vertical progression as most games just live with this downside and enjoy vertical progression for it’s easy of use and clear system the biggest solution I’ve liked is soft caps where the cost gets so high you effectively have a cap but it’s a little more grey you lose some of the clarity of vertical progression but you gain some constraints. In Guild Wars 2 we wanted from the start to try and solve this paradigm so we said let’s use vertical progression at the start as the gate can be a great tool to teach people slower and to grant access to different areas and build that sense of growth, but we found in GW1 that a max to that time allows for us to have a common end point for people and from there we grow horizontally.

Horizontal Progression
With horizontal progression, it has some tradeoffs it’s great for adding to as everything you add takes away a lot less from the things you made before. Making it a great system to add to it also keeps things fresh as it can add more choices and options. It’s weakness are mostly with clarity and gating, it always takes a lot more effect to explain what someone needs to do next with horizontal progression which means your often spending a lot of time and UI to tell people what to do to overcome this weakness while this can happen with vertical progression too it’s normally a bit simpler and easier sense it’s often more liner. Vertical progression naturally gets gateing built in and while you can add gating to horizontal progression it once again takes more UI and systems to explain why that gating matters you could easily add content that you can’t do unless you have this skill but how do you that content is there?

This is why for GW2 our goals from the start where using Vertical progression for teaching and clarity and then have a common understandable end point at that point switch to a more horizontal progression system which is easy to add too. We’ll still have to overcome some of the downsides with horizontal progression and it’s something we are contiung to work on.

#330 - Dec. 13, 2013, 9:20 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ascended Gear
So then why did we add ascended gear, well the reason is we wanted sometime between the transition and what we shipped with was very little time turns out global trading post has a lot more effect on this then we had original thought which made us need a non-tradable gear step. We still have some progression to smooth out around the rare -> exotic area as mostly you just jump from leveling greens to exotics and rare is really only used for salvaging into ecto. We have been spacing out adding each slot of ascended gear to make sure we don’t make our original mistake again and I’m sure we’ll need to continue to evaluate the time to gain this gear like we do all things.

Art Progression
Art progression! It’s horizontal why not do it more!!! Well we do this a lot all ready and a lot of it’s constraints comes down to costs. Every single piece of art we make is not liked by everyone and so the amount of art you have to make to give everyone a smooth art progression curve is very high. The cost of making some pieces of art is also very high (Armor especially) sense very pair of gloves = 10 pairs of gloves due to race/sex. We think art is a great horizontal progression system but not something that can stand 100% alone due to constraints of creation.

Grind
Alts

I group these together because I think they have some relation. Grind well I think grind is a kittene to fully describe because it really comes down to each person own personal feeling of I can only do x action so many times before its fun faction goes down and thus starts to feel grinding. For some this can be do something twice others 100 times, our goal with how to keep grind out of the game is the relation between time based and skill based gating. I think this is an area we are always trying to get a better sense on as we start to make things harder to add more challenge to the game sometimes we cross the time gate and skill gate too much and things feel more grindy then we intend. As for alts why I lump these up is I think often leveling up alts can feel grindy, our goals here are really about how we make things feel a little less grinding for some actions and we’ve been making a lot of steps with that combing WvW xp, adding tradable level up books, birthday gifts that level you up ect.. I think we are not done with the initiative to progressing alts being a bit more smooth and it’s something we will keep working on as we move forward.

Ascended creation time

We had a lot of discussion pre-releasing ascended armor to make sure the time to make ascended doesn’t blow out, We pull a lot of data and are watching how long it takes players and like we do with everything we will keep and eye on it but with anything with progression there are always a lot of tradeoffs when you make changes but we’re always looking at it.

Ok so that was a wall of text and clearly needs a cool story bro, but I wanted to get my thoughts out there before I head home for the day. Thanks everyone for posting we are reading it and maybe I’ll jump on after dinner if I get some free time.

#355 - Dec. 13, 2013, 11:41 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Excuse me, which “tradable level up books” are you referring to?

I mean account bound level up books, the tomes of knowledge.

#357 - Dec. 13, 2013, 11:45 p.m.
Blizzard Post

What about Weapon Skins? Is that just as costly? Considering the lack of weapon dyes in the game, could you not work with that? Maybe even add in Animations for certain weapons on top of the existing skins. Examples like an ecto glow, or a pink mist. Here’s one, change the color of skill animations like arrow/bullet trails. Even simpler maybe unique weapon names like GW1.
Just some thoughts.
And thanks for the discussion.

Weapon skins are not as hard as Armor which is why you see more of them, but there are still 19 weapons and we’ve found partial sets are not everyone fav thing. We do think there is some fatige to a slot. For example if we added a weapon skin every week the number of people who would care about each new weapon would go down quick. Which is why we try and rotate which slots new art comes out.

Gloves, Boots, shoulders and Helms are easier for armor but still take a while, Coats and Leggings are the most expensive.

Back items and weapons are faster to make but you need to make a lot of them

#362 - Dec. 14, 2013, 12:11 a.m.
Blizzard Post

It is 10:11pm where we are (-:

Chris

#372 - Dec. 14, 2013, 12:43 a.m.
Blizzard Post

A question to help direct the discussion a bit:

What are some of your favorite progression systems of all time in others? Be they horizontal, or vertical, just which ones really got you excited and were fun for you to continue to progress in?

For me, Final Fantasy Tactics is one I loved, where I was able to continue to unlock new jobs and advanced professions for my characters, as well as level up their abilities within those professions. It remains one of my all time favorite games, and one of my favorite systems of progression in any game. I’m also pretty darn fond of that Guild Wars game and skill collection.

If I may say, one area of progression, both horizontal and vertical, which I consider to be a complete failure is crafting.

I’m a craftsmen in real life, though I’ve moved in to the digital age and an currently studying to be an animator, modeler, and concept artist, my mother was a classical portraitist and landscape artist and my father was a carpenter. I can work to some degree with pretty much anything but metal and glass. And I have hated, HATED, every single crafting system in every game ever, except one.

DarkCloud 2, it was just amazing and fun.

That is the only game, ever, out of the thousands of games I have played over my life, in which I ENJOYED the crafting system. If you made gw2s crafting like that, or even took it as a base and improved upon it, you wouldn’t have to force me to craft by putting me at a severe stat disadvantage if I don’t, I would craft willingly and likely frequently.

Hi Conncept,

I haven’t had the chance to play this game, but I will definitely check with the team to see who has and look into the design of the system. Thanks for the pointing it out.

Chris

#375 - Dec. 14, 2013, 12:47 a.m.
Blizzard Post

I think before we talk about solutions, we have to be clear about the problems and that not everyone agrees about what is grind vs what is inherently enjoyable. For example, getting to max level in GW1 was easier, but getting to max stats/abilities (e.g. skills) was much grindier in my opinion — and yet, we see people in this thread arguing the opposite.

I think, though, we can agree about some things:

  • Time gating & account-bound crafting conflicts with running alts and swapping builds.
  • Gear/stats aren’t progressed as much as it’s replaced: you can’t resell or reuse masterwork, rare, or exotics when you upgrade to the next level. Heck, when you decide to junk PVT for something else, you also can’t reuse or recycle.
  • A lot of people like constantly improving their game in-game (e.g. levels, new skills, gear), but a lot of people who drank the GW2 kool-aid (including me) prefer maxing in-game abilities quickly and challenging ourselves in-game to improve our playing abilities. Both groups will see the same activity or challenges completely differently: the first group is glad there are 80 levels; the second group is not.

For me personally, I don’t like any sort of vertical progression. Leveling is a burden to me. It wasn’t hard in GW2 to reach L80, but I didn’t feel I was really playing the game until I had all skills unlocked for each profession, an activity that became increasingly dull for me with each alt. I also don’t care much about horizontal progression: I like attractive armor and weapons as much as anyone, but I don’t care much if I have it.

What interests me is personal progression: I want a game that always presents challenges for me. I liked this about GW1 and GW2: no matter how good I thought I was, there were always things I couldn’t do at first, but only after mastering other aspects of the game. GW1’s short-lived version of the Living Story (GW Beyond) added such challenges and gave the game new life for me.

Hi Illconceived,

I really like a sense of personal progression to through challenge and we will be continuing to move in this direction.

Chris

#376 - Dec. 14, 2013, 12:49 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Right I am going to log of for a bit. I will be jumping in to the discussion tomorrow. Have a good night all.

Chris

#541 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:29 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Morning All,

Amazing contribution so far and lots of it. I am up to date on the thread but am going to respond a number of pages at a time with the hope that I get fully caught up in terms of discussion by Monday.

I will try to respond personally to folks on the first 3 pages. Note if I don’t respond to you in person it is likely I have discussed this in a previous persons post.

Chris

#542 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:30 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The Fractal progression reset conversation is something I am still thinking about so please bear with me.

Regarding ascended mats and ascended gear drop balancing across WvW and Fractals: We are in the process of looking at the numbers and acquisition accessibility.

Will there be more vertical progression? Our focus currently (outside of Ascended Gear) is very much Horizontal and along the same lines of many ideas that you guys and girls have put forward. I will give more detail on this when I have caught up on the thread and I can answer Collaborators directly (-:

#543 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:31 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Part 3:
There’s a lot of other games that have really good horizontal progression. One of which is Skyrim. Some may not agree, however since the game scales to your level for the most part is is very much like horizontal progression. Look at the skill system. There is no just skill point you get each level. In order to unlock skills you actually have to find the in the world. Some require you to do special actions such as joining a faction or doing a quest.

Look a Guild Wars 1. To get a new skill not only did you have to be a certain point in the story, but also needed to know how to kill him. Most bosses had specific strategies.

Most popular RPGs in the world never had a skill system that was just level up and you get a point for a new skill. They usually had another gate.

Also if WvWers (all skills should be auto unlocked for spvpers) want, they can just buy skills with a combination of badges of honor and skill points.

Right now the endgame for horizontal progression of karma/gold/skillpoints/achievements is getting old fast. I’m seeing more people get burnt out faster. You either need to find drains for the karma/gold/skillpoints or split them up so its not so easily obtained to make them more meaningful.

Currently the game has more the enough horizontal progression dealing with crafting and collection. It has moderate to good horizontal progression for dungeon gear looks and WvW gear looks. Now its time to start introducing some new ways of horizontal progression.

Hi Deified.

The Tokens idea is interesting and I am sure you are noting that with our Mega Boss update Tequatl players can earn Ascended Weapons with Unique skins (Sunless) and that we will be moving forward with that paradigm. The idea of more challenging zone meta events was raised in the Living World CDI and a good idea. More to follow on that. I also agree that there is a huge amount of awesome progression to be found in guilds. ‘It has moderate to good horizontal progression for dungeon gear looks and WvW gear looks. Now it’s time to start introducing some new ways of horizontal progression.’ I agree.

Chris

#544 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:32 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I feel like, “vertical” progression in form of skills and titles, even with a slight power-creep associated with it, is ultimately good and better than progression via gear.

In GW1, newly introduced skill were clearly superior to old ones (i.e EotN skills are much more widely used overall than Prophesies skills.) while titles increased character’s power levels. It can be debated that, while they aren’t gear, these progression method were “vertical” in the sense that they made clearing content easier.

But these “vertical” progression methods (I put them in quotations because I know people will disagree with categorizing skills/titles as vertical progression) are much more welcoming than progression through gear. In gear progression, there’s an inherent sense of abandoning your previous progress and replacing it with something new. Whereas in skills and titles, progress just builds up, and you have none of that feeling, which I hypothesize is one of the reasons why GW1’s “vertical” progression was much more welcomed by both people who do like vertical progression (Your character undoubtedly gets stronger, often much more significantly than simple stat boosts, as you grind out titles and obtain new skills) and people who like horizontal progression (skill/title progression does not feel like traditional vertical progression.)

So in conclusion, I welcome in the future if the game introduced more potential progression through those two methods: skills and titles.

Hi Ursan,

I agree that Skills and traits are a very viable and exciting form of progression. We are moving in this direction already and will continue to build on this core foundation of the game.

Chris

#545 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:33 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I’ll leave the Ascended Stuff for others to argue about, I’m content with it now that its all in the game as is.

Whatever happened to vertical cosmetic progression is what I’m wondering?

The Fractal Capacitor is a brilliant example of this, its a backpiece I can get and wear, then as I do more and more fractals, I can gradually upgrade its appearance cosmetically. I’d LOVE to see more of this. The Halloween 2012 backpiece had this as well.

Also, Titles are a cosmetic progression reward that is severely underutilized. What about Title tracks that I could progress through?
Example: As it currently stands each world of Super Adventure Box has its own title, and I don’t need all the achieves in World 1 to get the title for World 2. But what if doing all the achievements in one world just Progressed my Super Adventure Box title track up one level? Then I could have a form of progression with titles! Note: Some work like this already in a way, like the Hall of Monuments titles. Why dont more?

Now that ascended is in the game, I’d love to see vertical progression take the form of upgrading stuff I currently have cosmetically. ANet seems to have been doing this early on in the games life.

Hi Zyphent,

Regarding gear that your can evolve aesthetically: I really like this to and this is something I will be chatting more about with the folks at work.

Chris

#546 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:34 p.m.
Blizzard Post

One of the huge draws for me to GW2, and one I still love today, is the flattened progression system. I’ve played enough games that were based around the vertical type with the gear treadmill involved, with WoW being a major one, and believe it or not they have far FAR less endgame then we have here in GW2 with the horizontal style. Really… what do you do for endgame in the WoW model? You either raid or prepare for raiding, that’s really it. So, from the heart and most emphatically, please let the ascended tier be the final tier of gear. We don’t need higher and it will be so incredibly much easier to create new content based on a known and expected level of power while keeping that new content accessible to all.

That last part… that’s the most important. Accessible to all. You shouldn’t be forced down a narrow road of required content in order to progress to further content later. You don’t need the WoW style of gimmickry where you toss a new raid every now and then and watch the lemmings run along to the next expansion while you suck the sub fees out of them. You’ve proven that already. Keep ascended max, keep content tuned to exotics and the sky is the limit for what you can create while simultaneously making sure the vast, vast majority of players will be able to experience it all. NEVER sacrifice accessibility!

So, progression. Horizontal rules. I’d like to see more and varied options towards that horizontal… a growing choice of ascended (and exotic) skins for example. Cosmetic things that maybe go a little beyond just an achievement and a title, but I’m not exactly sure what. Well… I have an idea, remember the statues in the Hall of Monuments? Of course, that would require a housing type of setting, but it would be great to have a place of our own to progress with our accomplishments as opposed to a power grind. Imagine a fireplace/hearth carved out of one of Jormag’s teeth that you can craft after defeating him? A lovely couch made of genuine naga hide? That type of progression, showy instead of powerful, would go a long way.

Of course, this is all my opinion, others will vary. I like the path we’re on progression-wise and the potential that is available using this path can be endless. (And yes… housing could really benefit the whole thing… but that’s a topic for another CDI…)

Edit: Just saw the later post – regarding speed, exotics are (now) fine but may have been a little to quick originally. If you speed up the rate of ascended progress you’ll need to more quickly offer alternative skins and the like to shoot for. Some people will push the speed to it’s maximum allowable, and they’ll be the loudest ones shouting that there’s nothing left to do while the rest of us cruise along at our own pace.

Hi Volkon,

‘So, progression. Horizontal rules. I’d like to see more and varied options towards that horizontal… a growing choice of ascended (and exotic) skins’ I agree.

Chris

#547 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:37 p.m.
Blizzard Post

On the topic of vertical progression:

Vertical progression is a necessary part of the RPG genre. Since the dawn of the genre itself, the name of the game has been progressing your character in the game world to become more powerful. Taking this part out of the game defeats the purpose of the genre imo.

That being said, I can understand the frustration some people would have in dealing with said progression. I only get to play maybe 1 or 2 hours a day most days, so I can understand that frustration more than others.

However, without vertical progression, we run into the doldrums of development like we are currently trapped in. Interest in the game has waned considerably, most of the first wave of players have moved on to other games because of a lack of things to do in game. I think this stems not so much from a lack of things to do, but from feeling a lack of actually earning anything. The game does nothing after you hit 80 and get your initial set of exotics to make you feel like you are gaining anything, power or otherwise.

I’m not advocating a WoW style gear grind that takes months and months to catch up to the current tier with. What I’m advocating is the inclusion of real character progression beyond cosmetic. A level 80 character should have a means of continuing to gain power, otherwise playing beyond getting the character to 80 has lost it’s point and meaning.

Personally, I would like to see the inclusion of more ways to make our characters seem like they are growing. Right now, my Guardian hasn’t changed at all in 6 months, and I log in less and less as a side effect of this. My friends list is empty. Most of the guild I am in has moved on.

I don’t want people to have to grind for the gear upgrades the way cosmetic upgrades are already a huge grind in the game. I think gear should be easily obtainable, but there needs to be a way to show character progression at level 80. Ideally, gear will be easier and less painful to get than the pretty cosmetic stuff everyone wants, but it would go a long way in keeping RPG fans invested in the game beyond the initial 6months to 1year mark.

I would like to add I think the top tier gear (currently Ascended, this topic of discussion) should be obtainable from any avenue in game that the person enjoys. Be it champ trains, world completion, jump puzzles, WvW, Fractals, whatever. It shouldn’t feel like a grind and it should come naturally. You can leave the grind to cosmetic progression like it currently is. But right now there is a complete disconnect from the point of 1-79 and level 80.

Hi Aeonblade,

Your points are certainly very interesting and well made and I agree with some of the goals behind them. I think we have a robust system for rewarding players and delivering content now and I think we need to drill more into horizontal progression from a systemic acquisition standpoint and gain some of the benefits of vertical progression from a skill/trait/proffesion progression stand point.

Chris

#548 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:38 p.m.
Blizzard Post

HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION
The flaws with its execution in GW2

Skill/ Build Progression
What is skill/ build progression? It’s about getting new tools to improve or customize our builds.

  • It is crippled by some of the systems set in place for vertical progression, like stats being tied to gear, which in turn is tied to huge money and time sinks.
  • It is further restricted by how trait allocation works, and the lack of build templates.
  • Non-profession skills are very underwhelming. Although this is done on purpose for the sake of balance, when they aren’t worth using, they do not serve their purpose to enhance world immersion, as they are left unused, nor do they add any form of horizontal progression, because no build will be created around them.
  • Skill hunting is generic and lacks the charm GW1’s elite skill hunting had.
  • The skill system is generally very restrictive, with few weapons per profession, very few utility slots tied to high cooldowns, and an elite skill system that isn’t acchieving the epic feel it was meant to acchieve.

Solutions

  • Separate the concept of (ascended) gear crafting from the concept of equipment stat customisation. Make it easy or easier to change stats, or at the very least, to craft new copies of the same gear with different stats.
  • Add an universal build template system, and allows us to change traits on the fly (while not in battle, dungeons, etc). Creating and saving builds should be free. Loading/ changing them could still require a small money sink, if Anet feels it needs to be there.
  • Revise how non-profession skills should be balanced. Instead of making them bad on purpose, make them decent but only fill a certain niche/ tied heavily to a specific area or situation. In theory, the new spray skill does that, but it’s a poor skill even for its intended purpose.
  • It’s probably too late for a better skill hunting system, but perhaps that can still exist for something other than skill collection. More on that later.
  • Anet is already adding new skills to professions, so this area is already covered.

I’ll talk about skins next.

There are some good ideas here which I would like to see us discussing as a group.

What do you all think about these ideas?

Chris

#549 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:41 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Now, jumping right into horizontal progression. Can the ArenaNet designers begin to design a game that incorporates the orders that we joined in our personal story. The designers may already be doing this to some degree, but it is my opinion that it is lightly used.

You may recall that in the first Guild Wars there were two factions. I believe they were called the Luxons and the Kurzacks. In that game it was possible to compete quest for a particular faction. Doing so resulted in rewards such as special armor and weapons. I would like to see the orders work in a similar fashion (or if no one likes the orders, then create some new factions for us to be a part of. I just pick the orders because there already in the game and I like that incorporates the personal story back into the game)

Also, I believe it would be great if completing quest didnt stop at skin and title rewards. If npc’s in the world could react to you based on which order you joined that would be cool as well. Have npc’s sell you cheaper food based on the order your in. For example, the vigil could sell you cheaper food that has power at its base, where the order of whispers could sell you items that deal with vigor or stealth. Discount food has already been done in game. The dragon bash festival introduced food that could be bought with candy (which is basically another currency when you get down to it) The food had buffs similar to that of food that was already in the game it just didnt last as long. Please dont stop at just food, Im just using this as an example.

Maybe put some animosity between some of the orders and provide us with some conflict we can participate in. Thats all Ive come up with for now. Anyone else have any ideas?

Would this kind of ‘Faction’ progression outside of how NPC’s perceive you in the world allow you access to exclusive Faction based rewards? Would this be grindy?

I like the base idea a lot and obviously it is something we could build in and thus am keen to hear the thoughts of everyone in regard to this?

Chris

#550 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:42 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The two main areas for discussion will be Horizontal and Vertical progression, however please understand that the commentary and ideation we are really looking for regarding vertical is around its accessibility in game.

I’m not sure I understand this bit; could you clarify?

Basically:

  • How easy it is to attain the Ascended gear?
  • Is the balance of acquisition of Ascended out of whack between different game-modes (i.e. Easier in PvE than WvW, easier in the open world than it’s intended game mode [Fractals])?

Couldn’t have said it better myself DaiBish. Thanks.

Chris

In terms of collection in WvW and PvE I think its in a pretty good position. However, obtaining in different routes does take a bit longer I felt. I also understand why. This game is very easy in most parts of it. If you increased the drop rate the item would lose its significance because it would be too easy to get. So I feel like you need to increase the difficulty in more ascended gaining areas while also increasing the drop rate. I don’t want to have to do a really hard event 100 times to get one ascended piece.

Yep this is a good point.

Chris

#552 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:45 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Greeting and salutations citizens of tyria, my name is Eveenus though most of my friends call me E.V.

This time around Arenanet has asked for our opinions and thoughts on the matter of vertical and horizontal progression in Guild Wars 2, and by association the reward system.

I’m going to start this off very blunt by saying I did not like the implementation of Ascended gear (and how it currently exists within the game), and am probably one of the most vocal people against it you will find. I feel it goes against the beginning philosophy of Guild Wars (or at least the one that was publicized).

With that out of the way I will not be advocating for the removal of ascended gear, which I have no doubt some people would enjoy. It is in the game and all we can do now is look forward as to how to improve not only it’s implementation but also the way rewards as a whole work in Guild Wars 2. Oh I should also probably also mention I will not be covering vertical progression beyond ascended gear, there are plenty of other people that will no doubt touch on it and I personally do not want to see any more implemented into Guild Wars 2.

Now to the nitty gritty and to begin by looking at the current and how it can be improved to better facilitate all players.

As it stands Ascended Gear as whole has many ways of being acquired laurels, fractals, rng, guild missions, gathering, gold, and cold hard cash (witch translates into gems then gold). However Ascended gear is acquired as individial pieces, and each individual piece has a very limited avenue of acquisition.

Armor and weapons can be crafted which in practice means they are acquired with gold either buy getting it and buying what you need or going out and getting what you need yourself hence losing the opportunity to get gold. The most conservative measure for armor on one character is roughly 400 gold in the current market (which is flooded right now so I would expect a rise soon and that is AFTER reaching 500 in the appropiate skill). This is fine, it’s an avenue for those with lots of gold (or money) to get what they want without a time restriction. However, for the more average player this is a lofty goal which is quite frankly, ridiculous to expect them to achieve in any sort of timely manner. My suggestion, add other avenues that are strictly about the time invested, no influence from the market at all. Currently there are three ways to do this pristine fractal relics, laurels, and guild commendations. I say why pick one? Have a general idea for how long each piece should take and just go with it for all of them. For the sake of an example let’s say a full set of armor should take 20 days to get (going by the time gated materials this seems a close number to what would be appropiate). that would be 20 laurels, 20 pristine fractal relics, or 12-14 guild commendations.

This would allow those that do not enjoy crafting or more importantly farming gold for extended periods of time an enjoyable avenue of acquiring their gear. While still giving those who do enjoy acquiring gold for their rewards or skipping time gating to acquire it their way. Oh this would also mean that those ascended pieces that are currently only available through time gated or RNG means (rings, necklaces, acessories) should probably be available through means of gold. Ascended level jewelcrafting should handle that nicely though.

Then there’s the area of the game that lacks any true way of ascended acquisition through itself. WvW, Arguably the game type that having Ascended gear matters the most. I’m not much of a WvW’er but I feel this should be said. Please make all Ascended reasonably obtainable with Badges of Honor or from rank and season chest (or even all of them!)

If this is implemented I think it would be a boon to the current state of affairs. Ascended gear was said to be implemented to serve to purpose of something for players to aim toward after exoctics but to be much less daunting than a legendary, which some do not even want (including myself but that is personal taste). Right now however, ascended armor in particular is too much of a lofty task for some (including myself) because of it’s single avenue of acquisition that is very very very (am I making my point?) steep. Steep enough that I could actually get a legendary in a similar timeframe to ascended armor/weapons. Obviously, not really filling it’s inteded role there.

Personally I agree with you. i think Ascended Gear should be more accessible from an acquisition standpoint. Sadly i can’t go into anymore detail than this suffice to say we are looking at this issue.

Chris

#553 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:46 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Progression depends on each individual player.
I am in favour of vanity progression.

Transformation items are my favourite. Endless cat tonic, watchknight, molten berserker, you name it.
Items like that are what motivates me, not statistical progression.

I am also crazy about vanity items I can spawn in the world. Chairs to sit on, bonfires, banners, finishers.
Just something for me to spawn and perhaps interact with.

If dyes were account bound then I would collect them. As it stands now I only get a few cheap ones for alts.

Also, use up what you already have in the game. There are a ton of skins, but because of the terrible transmutation system we stick to one skin and one skin only.

Imagine if we could unlock skins and endlessly switch between all of them. I would go out of my way to collect as many as possible – even buying those in the gem store.

Hi Naus,

That would be cool (-:

Chris

#555 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:49 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I talked about Ascended gear in my last post so now how’s abouts some horizontal progression ideas?.

A large part of horizontal progression is cosmetic: particularly armor and weapons as it stands now. Players work to obtain the looks they want for their character, after some time they may get bored of the look and want a new one. This is fine and great, but why does this wonderful system have to be limited to armor?

How about new animations, particle effects for casting/attacking, in-combat quips, hairstyles, tatoos, (visible) jewelry, or even alternate skills?

A long time ago, while Guild Wars 2 was still in development the idea of profession specific skill challenges was touted around. Ultimately the idea was scrapped for the (much better) current universal approach, but what if profession challenges made their way into the game in another form?

Example: A Thief challenge to climb a trap riddled tower, without being able to actually walk. A puzzle built specifically for shadowsteps. The reward? Unique attack/skill particle effects like shadow refuge but are sick of seeming the same ol’ house? How about a cloak of shadow of the area instead? Sick of that mediocre -woosh- effect when you slash and stab? How about something a little more…red? ;P

The possibilities are endless here as to what the challenges could be and what their rewards could entail, but the core idea remains. A challenge tailored to a single profession, with a reward to match.

Moving on we can look at the (currently) under utilized personality system, currently you make a choice at character creation and as you speak with certain NPC’s sometimes you are given a choice as to what to say and there’s some bar in your hero panel that shows which choices you pick most often or something. What if personality went further than that though? What if it affected the way or characters look and act? What if a honor bound human would never say “I can outrun a centaur!” but instead opted for a simple and somewhat self dignified “I will outrun you!”? This would be a great way to personalize our chracters even further in a manner that would be.. refreshing.

I could go on and on about more ideas for horizontal progression, and even more ways to improve the acessibility of the current vertical progression system but this post is getting long and I’d liek to see what people have to say about what I said.

With that said if anyone dev or not wants to speak with me about this topic or Guild Wars 2 in general you can find me in-game, live on the relic of orr podcast, or on twitter. Jsut remember keep it civil and look forwards toward making Guild Wars 2 the best game it can be, not back at past mistakes or whatever; I’m horrible at being deep.

Agreed. Let’s spend a little more time discussing and brainstorming the following questions:

Controversial: Vertical Progression acquisition can be a pain but what if any elements do you like about Vertical Progression?

Lets keep coming up with some awesome Horizontal Progression systemic ideas and also reward ideas?

Try to tie these ideas into the core foundation of GW2’s systems and mechanics please.

Chris

#557 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:54 p.m.
Blizzard Post

For more than a year now (since Ascended gear first came out) the discussion over vertical vs. horizontal progression has been going back and forth among the player base both here on the forums and on varied sites devoted to GW2. Throughout these discussions there has been a great deal of conjecture from either side about what the game’s “vision” is, how GW2 has veered away from its pre-launch mission statement and what where the game is headed in the future. It would be seriously awesome to read here, from the game’s developers where we as a players can expect GW2 to go in the future. While I understand that the CDI isn’t intended to discuss what is currently in development, it shouldn’t be a problem to express to players what the game’s general direction is intended to be.

On launch GW2 offered something very different from what currently populates the MMO genre. It may have been a far step away from GW1, but it was also a far step away from most of what the industry offers as “the norm”. Gradually over time, and suddenly with the introduction of ascended gear that has changed. Please note that I am not attempting to state that ascended gear is impossible to earn by any measure, or that it is even particularly difficult, it is however sharply limiting in some of the things that were once GW2’s greatest strengths when contrasted with other MMOs.

  • Alts:
    Increasing the range of GW2’s gear ladder makes it harder for people to play multiple characters and sufficiently gear them out.
  • Build diversity:
    Where previously players had the flexibility to play different builds and gear sets in the different parts of the game (WvW, Open World, Dungeons/Fractals) now build diversity is much more sharply limited based not only on the gear one has to carry but the challenge of getting that gear. It is more costly for players to experiment with builds over time and dramatic class changes have a more negative impact on players due to invested time.
  • Value of old content:
    As the rewards systems of the game change and become more vertical, old content becomes (as in most other MMOs) much less rewarding. Dungeons officially offer nothing but gold and armor skins (that you have to waste transmutation stones on) at this point.

One of the standard arguments against the above is that the vertical progression is shallow and ultimately optional. “You don’t ‘need’ ascended gear” after all, but if it isn’t necessary, why is it around? Once stats start getting raised through gear grind either old content has to be made more difficult, or old content becomes trivial to run either of which seems a poor choice.

I could complain about ascended gear and vertical progression until I’m blue in the face, but in an attempt to be constructive a few suggestions:

  • Gear could have swappable stats (like legendaries)
    This would at very least place less confinement on horizontal progression by allowing players to try out differing builds without having the character defined purely by their gear.
  • Gear could cap out at ascended with things like infusions being account unlocks
    This might help to limit the impact on those with alts, while still offering the opportunity for vertical progression.

There will always be some new MMO to offer players the hottest new gear ladder, but I think the genre can and should offer more than that. An MMO shouldn’t have to be your life for players to be on an even scale.

Hi Dreamer,

I agree and our current direction and reason for the CDI is because we are focused on drilling further into awesome Horizontal progression.

Chris

#558 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:56 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Vertical Progression
This is a hot button issue. People are fairly well adjusted to the idea of ascended now, but simply taking the easy road and adding another and another 5% stat hike down the line is going to result in new and returning player alienation.

Gates, not Grinds
Vertical progression needs to be handled in terms of gates, not grinds. A good example is the way fractal levels, hearts, and waypoints are handled. You don’t theoretically need to grind 31 to gt to 32, or 32 to get to 33, etc. and you don’t need to collect 4 milliong whatevers to unlock a waypoint. You need to prove your ability to pass the prerequisite, and you need to do that one time. Doing a thing, even if it’s difficult, costly, or time consuming to first time is often fun. In terms of gated content, it isn’t about the equipment and stats as much as it is about accomplishing something. Putting laundry lists of “a stack of this and 200 or that, and five of these” in place of some sort of questing, boss fight, or other content diminshes that sense of accomplishment. Getting one of each of five things, all from different places/methods, and combining them to get the “key” for the sixth thing is fun.

You already did it better once
If we’re going to progress characters, it needs to be meaningful, fun, and content driven. The EOTN systems and guild wars 1’s mission systems were very good at this. You could earn skills by progressing thematically through content related to those skills. You could unlock a “boss dungeon” by defeating several other dungeons. You could access later fights by doing easier ones. The goal of these methods of advancement didn’t just boil down to “do one thing” or “Collect currency” as much as it encouraged you to go out and complete a variety of content. In these systems my advancement wasn’t ever measured by the numbers on my character sheet as much as it was measured by all the things I had access to, and a lot of those things were placed in a strict vertical acquisition heirarchy despite not adding mechanical power to the character.

Horizontal Progression
Horizontal progression is a term that should really read “customization and options” as that’s what we are really saying when we talk about it. The main problem with horizontal progression is that so many of the trait and skill systems are extremely high impact per choice, leaving little room to have a skill or rune set or whatever “for fun” because taking that one “fun” thing can seriously cripple your overall effectiveness.

Despite having a smaller skill bar, GW1 did a slightly better job of this. A large number of builds had around five or six “key” skills, and two or three “optional” skills. With the GW2 system, there’s very little wiggle room due to the limitation on slot types. You can’t take a fun but lackluster skill because it takes up all or 1/3 of your options. When looking at Horizontal Progression we need to look at low impact but useful customization hand in hand with high impact things like traits and mainline skills.

Adventuring Ranks
Skill points are vastly underutilized. Take a look at the WvW ranking system and envision a version of that, only for general PvE. Allow players to “rank up” passive buffs to acquire effects like those found on consumables. “favored enemy” bonuses, minor stat buffs. Conditional bonuses when in certain areas, and other things that help to individualize characters.

Teamwork!
What if there were a way to customize the effects of your combos with other players? What if there were more ways for characters to meaningfully interact in combat? What if these were highly customizable, both visually and mechanically?

Weapon skill customization and collection
What if there were several cosmetic versions of each weapon skill, and you could learn them via skill capture, looting, or some other method? Mechanically they would always work the same, but let’s pretend you could get unique or rare versions of these skills with altered effects, character animations, shouts, projectiles, etc. This could be an entire new and fun subset of horizontal progression.

What if it were possible to add over time slot-limited skills to weapons? Use the weapon slots like the heal and elite slots to make it easier to balance, but how about it?

My Home Town and/or Guild Hall
You know where vertical progression is awesome? When you’re building something massive. Adding content to allow players to upgrade, improve, and customize things like these adds an entire new subset of potential shinies to acquire, none of which upset the power balance of player skills.

Some great points. Pope.

Chris

#560 - Dec. 14, 2013, 1:59 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I my eyes a big concern of players with ascended gear is the restricted accessibility and the time. I am a passionate craftsman. I can easily craft one set within a month. But equipping three or four characters with one or one character with multiple sets is a very large project. Maybe it would be much easier to wait for the legendary versions.

Many people do not like crafting but they are forced to it to obtain ascended gear in a reliable way. It the same situation as in other MMOs where you are confronted with only one way to the best gear. It would help a lot if you could introduce several ways to the goal like (time gated) tokens dungeons, fractals or even WvW. If it is needed you can introduce time gates in all ways. But the more reliable ways we get offered the faster and easier we can work toward multiple set we like to have.

Another concern many people have is the future of vertical progression. They worry about infusions. Will there be another round of progression based on infusions like rare or exotic versions. Will the players be forced at the end to go for ascended gear to catch up?

Note I don’t expect my team to work on weekends, I am replying because I have the time but this is a question for Izzy. Who will probably reply Monday (-:

Chris

#563 - Dec. 14, 2013, 2:03 p.m.
Blizzard Post

There is an idea that floats through the minds of many players of other MMO’s that you can only ever have one Main, and the rest are Alts. The reason for this is simple, in most MMO’s the gear progession is so steep that you can only ever afford to progress one character. When I started GW2, I really hoped this was different, I wanted to be able to enjoy EVERY class and EVERY race…to be able to switch and play through the different stories…and this was true, until Ascended came out.

The vertical progression has killed the game for me, I look at the time and money needed to outfit all of my characters and suddenly it is impossible.

Horizontal progression is infinitely preferable in my opinion and I feel that GW2 still has a ton of potential in this aspect. Right now, there are very few armor sets, and even fewer vanity sets outside of the gem-store. This needs to change. Give us some really amazing armor sets (particularly sets that could be mixed-matched) WITHIN the game to work towards…give us cosmetic things to work towards and I bet you would satisfy everyone within the game. Those that want to grind towards things, can grind towards that awesome glowing armor, while those casual players will not be left behind. How about new pets for rangers (Rockdog for instance), that they could work towards…it could have the same stats as other pets (like black-widow vs jungle spider), but look cool….give Thieves a cool new hood or mask they could work towards,

The potential for horizontal progession is infinite! You could keep putting more and more “looks” and other “cosmetic” items into the game, giving people more and more things to work towards, while at the same time, not alienating anyone who needs to take a month off from the game, or the casual players. You could keep everyone happy.

As for how to “fix” the current Ascended issue: Give us more ways of obtaining it. Start throwing Ascended weapons and armor into dungeons, fractals, make it not account bound so that we can make sets for guildmates, let us buy it with pristine fractals…get it out there so that everyone can have it….it’s ugly…so you can still do this while adding horizontal progression with better “looks” to apply to it.

Make money in the Gem store with transmutation stones, un-transmutation stones, upgrades to banks, etc….I am all for ANET making money…its the only way to pay for new content in the game…but start giving us some cool cosmetic upgrades outside of the gemstore (I would have gladly done the tower another 50 times for Kasmeer’s staff…putting it in the gemstore actually made me not want it).

Hi Moshari,

I think we could do more to get a better balance between cool looking ‘new’ armor in the gem store and earning it through the game itself.

Chris

#564 - Dec. 14, 2013, 2:04 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I came about this post of a several month s ago and what I really liked about it was the fact that it expanded on the current professions but added horizontal progression-without the idea of balancing classes nightmare please consider something like this:

I will just quote:
Warriors > Berserker —- Legionnaire —- Duellist
Guardians > Crusader —- Augmentor —- Patron
Necromancer > Occultist —- Visionary —- Witcher
Rangers > Hunter —- Strider —- Mystic
Thiefs > Rogue —- Infiltrator —- Saboteur
Engineers > Alchemist —- Artificer —- Pioneer
Mesmers > Chronomancer —- Fencer —- Bard
Elementalists > Runologist —- Sorcerer —- Arcanist
—-NEW CLASS – 3rd Soldier—-
Lancers > Dragoon —- Templar —- Partizan >
That way players can:
progress with their characters
individualize themself better and make them more unique
unlock alot of new skills, traits, weapons ect. just through progressing with their class specific Talents that define, into which direction you specialize your character

Yep we chat about this a lot (-: It get’s me excited as a player to.

Chris

#566 - Dec. 14, 2013, 2:09 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Wow well whilst I have read the entire thread already I have only just finished replying to page 1…. and that has taken two hours out of my day. Do not fear however, this thread will be open for a long time and as the pages go on their will be invariably be less for me to reply to as I will have covered large topics prior.

Note if i didn’t reply to you it could be because I am thinking on it. Please do me a favor all, try where possible to be concise with your theories, ideas, and observations. It will make all of our jobs easier.

I am going to head out and will either be back on tonight (Unlikely as my guild is doing TQ and WvW) or tomorrow morning.

Keep up the great work,

Chris

#568 - Dec. 14, 2013, 2:11 p.m.
Blizzard Post

As was said before, and to clarify, putting ascended items as loot (like tequatl, …) is not a solution to make them more accessible. The drop rate is so low that you can’t expect to get your weapon that way (not even counting that you’re not choosing the stats you want, like with fractals chests).

So the only way to get ascended stuff at the moment is with crafting, which needs a ton of materials, not all available everywhere. That’s the accessibility of those materials which you should make easier, as it’s the only sure way to get your weapons. All the other chests possibilities are bonuses if you’re real lucky, not something you can count on.

Hi Estriella,

Please do try to keep up to date with the thread. I have mentioned a number of times that we are currently looking at drop rate balancing.

Thanks,

Chris

#571 - Dec. 14, 2013, 2:19 p.m.
Blizzard Post

As chris said going to be hard to keep to a 3 page summary with this one but I’ll get started

Topics
*Fractal Resets
*Ascended Gear
*Horizontal Progression
*Vertical Progression
*Grind
*Art Progression
*Alts
*Gates
*Map progression
*Ascended creation time

There where a a lot more topics but I figured I’ll get a start before I head home

Fractal Resets
See my above post on this.

Ascended Gear
Horizontal Progression
Vertical Progression

I’m going to lump these three together and talk about all three. The goal of progression is for you to feel like your character is growing as you spend time in the game. It can also serve as a common system that the different playstyles of people can use as a common language to communicate their accomplishment between each other. For example saying I reached level 80 or have full ascended tells someone of your accomplishments but you could do that in many different ways.

Vertical progression
Some games choose vertical progression for this system and I think vertical progression has it’s place it’s a very strait forward system that has natural gating built in and makes you feel better when you get stronger and overcome those gates. The place where I feel it breaks down is when you start adding to a game. This changes the feeling of vertical progression as your accomplishments start to become a bit more of a moving target I think this problem hasn’t really be solved for vertical progression as most games just live with this downside and enjoy vertical progression for it’s easy of use and clear system the biggest solution I’ve liked is soft caps where the cost gets so high you effectively have a cap but it’s a little more grey you lose some of the clarity of vertical progression but you gain some constraints. In Guild Wars 2 we wanted from the start to try and solve this paradigm so we said let’s use vertical progression at the start as the gate can be a great tool to teach people slower and to grant access to different areas and build that sense of growth, but we found in GW1 that a max to that time allows for us to have a common end point for people and from there we grow horizontally.

Horizontal Progression
With horizontal progression, it has some tradeoffs it’s great for adding to as everything you add takes away a lot less from the things you made before. Making it a great system to add to it also keeps things fresh as it can add more choices and options. It’s weakness are mostly with clarity and gating, it always takes a lot more effect to explain what someone needs to do next with horizontal progression which means your often spending a lot of time and UI to tell people what to do to overcome this weakness while this can happen with vertical progression too it’s normally a bit simpler and easier sense it’s often more liner. Vertical progression naturally gets gateing built in and while you can add gating to horizontal progression it once again takes more UI and systems to explain why that gating matters you could easily add content that you can’t do unless you have this skill but how do you that content is there?

This is why for GW2 our goals from the start where using Vertical progression for teaching and clarity and then have a common understandable end point at that point switch to a more horizontal progression system which is easy to add too. We’ll still have to overcome some of the downsides with horizontal progression and it’s something we are contiung to work on.

Summary by Izzy Bump

Chris

#572 - Dec. 14, 2013, 2:20 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ascended Gear
So then why did we add ascended gear, well the reason is we wanted sometime between the transition and what we shipped with was very little time turns out global trading post has a lot more effect on this then we had original thought which made us need a non-tradable gear step. We still have some progression to smooth out around the rare -> exotic area as mostly you just jump from leveling greens to exotics and rare is really only used for salvaging into ecto. We have been spacing out adding each slot of ascended gear to make sure we don’t make our original mistake again and I’m sure we’ll need to continue to evaluate the time to gain this gear like we do all things.

Art Progression
Art progression! It’s horizontal why not do it more!!! Well we do this a lot all ready and a lot of it’s constraints comes down to costs. Every single piece of art we make is not liked by everyone and so the amount of art you have to make to give everyone a smooth art progression curve is very high. The cost of making some pieces of art is also very high (Armor especially) sense very pair of gloves = 10 pairs of gloves due to race/sex. We think art is a great horizontal progression system but not something that can stand 100% alone due to constraints of creation.

Grind
Alts

I group these together because I think they have some relation. Grind well I think grind is a kittene to fully describe because it really comes down to each person own personal feeling of I can only do x action so many times before its fun faction goes down and thus starts to feel grinding. For some this can be do something twice others 100 times, our goal with how to keep grind out of the game is the relation between time based and skill based gating. I think this is an area we are always trying to get a better sense on as we start to make things harder to add more challenge to the game sometimes we cross the time gate and skill gate too much and things feel more grindy then we intend. As for alts why I lump these up is I think often leveling up alts can feel grindy, our goals here are really about how we make things feel a little less grinding for some actions and we’ve been making a lot of steps with that combing WvW xp, adding tradable level up books, birthday gifts that level you up ect.. I think we are not done with the initiative to progressing alts being a bit more smooth and it’s something we will keep working on as we move forward.

Ascended creation time

We had a lot of discussion pre-releasing ascended armor to make sure the time to make ascended doesn’t blow out, We pull a lot of data and are watching how long it takes players and like we do with everything we will keep and eye on it but with anything with progression there are always a lot of tradeoffs when you make changes but we’re always looking at it.

Ok so that was a wall of text and clearly needs a cool story bro, but I wanted to get my thoughts out there before I head home for the day. Thanks everyone for posting we are reading it and maybe I’ll jump on after dinner if I get some free time.

Second part of Izzy’s page 7 Summary Bump

Chris

#602 - Dec. 14, 2013, 3:37 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Agreed. Let’s spend a little more time discussing and brainstorming the following questions:

Controversial: Vertical Progression acquisition can be a pain but what if any elements do you like about Vertical Progression?

Lets keep coming up with some awesome Horizontal Progression systemic ideas and also reward ideas?

Try to tie these ideas into the core foundation of GW2’s systems and mechanics please.

Chris

Sure, all is in this 3 posts. I hope you will look into it:
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression/page/7#post3370576
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression/page/7#post3370577
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression/page/7#post3370619

Hi Septemptus,

I have read the posts. And I will specifically comment on them why I get to them in the order I am parsing through the thread. My point was for everyone to have a focused discussion around this. The point of the CDI is for us all to brainstorm not just Devs and single participants. I hope this makes sense.

Chris

#637 - Dec. 14, 2013, 6:40 p.m.
Blizzard Post
3373369

Solutions

  • Separate the concept of (ascended) gear crafting from the concept of equipment stat customisation. Make it easy or easier to change stats, or at the very least, to craft new copies of the same gear with different stats.

There are some good ideas here which I would like to see us discussing as a group.

What do you all think about these ideas?

Chris

I have kinda a problem with this.
I know that there is or soon will be in gemstore an item that allows stat changing. (datamined)

So I kinda see it like this: We get extreamly money consuming armor and istead of making another copy of it we can do a one time stat change – so you just kinda created yourself a market for new item that was already datamined like 5 months ago.

It looks really bad for me.

I kinda would have a nice solution to back it up:
Make an item (gem shop item of corse) that will one time add another stat combo to an item.
How should it work.
I will craft berserker gear but I will think “wait on WvW I would use soldger” so I buy that new item and add soldger to the item and I will get list of 2 stats I can change on the item. I will then think, Carrion or Rabid could be also nice for come builds, so I will buy that new item 2 times and I will have ascended item that can choose stats from the list of 4. (or make them have choice ot 2 stats and add more to the list with gemstore item?)

That would be something I could place my money on and if it was only doable for ascneded those would be kinda (limited legendar like) and so they would have some meaning in making with the cost of them, because now they are way more like an eyesore.

I have read the posts. And I will specifically comment on them why I get to them in the order I am parsing through the thread. My point was for everyone to have a focused discussion around this. The point of the CDI is for us all to brainstorm not just Devs and single participants. I hope this makes sense.

Chris

It sure does.

Awesome (-:

Chris

#642 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:18 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Here is a crazy brainstorm idea, not in anyway indicative of our direction.

What if there was vertical progression in the Fractals with gear that increased in stats but when outside of the fractals defaulted back to BiS numbers?

I am asking this because it is going to generate some left field conversation not because I think it is or isn’t a good idea.

Chris

#643 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:23 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Anyone remember skill books in GW1?

Great horizontal potential there if they come back.

Agreed.

Chris

#645 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:26 p.m.
Blizzard Post

BACK TO HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION

Playing with alts
Anet had some sort of strategy about using player’s alts as new sources of money sink, but that has clearly failed, and we’ve been getting changes towards the opposite direction lately. This is great, because the more incentives there are to play with alts, the more incentives there are for a portion of the playerbase to log more often into the game.

  • Ascended gear discriminates the players who like to invest on multiple characters, as it demands from them a much higher money sink than from players that stick to a single character.
  • Likewise for dyes.
  • Likewise for several soul-bound items.
  • Exploring the world is very repetitive the second time.

Solutions

  • Make ascended gear significantly easier to get after the first copy is crafted/ obtained, similar to the acchievement’s skins. After getting the first copy, the player could get the ability to create as many duplicates as they would wish for their other characters.
  • Make dyes account bound.
  • Make most non-story soul-bound gear account-bound. If I just replaced my ascended trinkets for new ones, why can’t I equip the old ones to another character I have? The money sink is already done. I have already contributed positively to the game’s economy. :P Let me at the very least use it somewhere else.
  • World exploration is very complex, and I won’t dwelve into it for being off-topic. But it would be nice if, at the very least, the WPs were account bound, so we could quickly go to our favourite area or help our friends in a specific dungeon without being restricted only to our main.

Some really cool ideas here Diogo.

Chris

#646 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:27 p.m.
Blizzard Post

In addition to including the orders we joined in the regular game, I would like to see the choices we make represented in game through titles and npc interactions. About 30% of the time weve been given choices in how to proceed with a task and no where have I witnessed an outcome of my choice other than in the immediate path that follows the choice. I think the choices are fist, crown and heart. I dont think we need a system as involved as mass effect or skyrim (though that would be cool) but it would be nice to see your character progress slowly towards the dark side if you will. Please can someone tell me if Im missing something. Do your choices ever show up in the game anywhere?

I think it would be a nice form of horizontal progression.

How would you like to see this system extended Savoy?

What would the activities be and what would the rewards look like? I assume you are thinking it would work with the Karma system?

Chris

#648 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:29 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Here is a crazy brainstorm idea, not in anyway indicative of our direction.

What if there was vertical progression in the Fractals with gear that increased in stats but when outside of the fractals defaulted back to BiS numbers?

I am asking this because it is going to generate some left field conversation not because I think it is or isn’t a good idea.

Chris

For what purpose or benefit would said proposition bring? Currently Fractals works very well as it is because of how it is currently set up. How would the idea improve fractals? (ie can you expand a little more on the idea?)

Well let me be devil’s advocate then and give one example. Make it easier to play through earlier fractals when playing with lower level friends.

Chris

#659 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:41 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Here is a crazy brainstorm idea, not in anyway indicative of our direction.

What if there was vertical progression in the Fractals with gear that increased in stats but when outside of the fractals defaulted back to BiS numbers?

I am asking this because it is going to generate some left field conversation not because I think it is or isn’t a good idea.

Chris

For what purpose or benefit would said proposition bring? Currently Fractals works very well as it is because of how it is currently set up. How would the idea improve fractals? (ie can you expand a little more on the idea?)

Well let me be devil’s advocate then and give one example. Make it easier to play through earlier fractals when playing with lower level friends.

Chris

I dont see that as attractive to do though. The game has a fantastic feature in its scaling which maintains challenge at lower level content across the entire game, whether it is zones or dungeons.

If higher fractal player was with me, I’d hope for us both to experience challenge. Otherwise the lower fractal player would feel carried (me) and the higher lvl fractal player would feel bored. The sense of achievemnt for us both would be gone. Remember, people are getting to higher fractals because they are skilled not because of their stats.

It would go against a fundamental ideal of the game you implemented.

Yep.

#661 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:43 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Here is a crazy brainstorm idea, not in anyway indicative of our direction.

What if there was vertical progression in the Fractals with gear that increased in stats but when outside of the fractals defaulted back to BiS numbers?

I am asking this because it is going to generate some left field conversation not because I think it is or isn’t a good idea.

Chris

For what purpose or benefit would said proposition bring? Currently Fractals works very well as it is because of how it is currently set up. How would the idea improve fractals? (ie can you expand a little more on the idea?)

Well let me be devil’s advocate then and give one example. Make it easier to play through earlier fractals when playing with lower level friends.

Chris

I dont see that as attractive to do though. The game has a fantastic feature in its scaling which maintains challenge at lower level content across the entire game, whether it is zones or dungeons.

If higher fractal player was with me, I’d hope for us both to experience challenge. Otherwise the lower fractal player would feel carried (me) and the higher lvl fractal player would feel bored. The sense of achievemnt for us both would be gone. Remember, people are getting to higher fractals because they are skilled not because of their stats.

It would go against a fundamental ideal of the game you implemented.

Yep.

Really the point of the question was to see if anyone would want to see vertical style progression live anywhere in the game. The question is essentially a forcing function to get a more macro level question answered.

Chris

#663 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:49 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Brainstorm statement.

I am assuming that you wouldn’t want a progression system in which new skills and traits superseded/replaced existing skills and traits.

Thus all progression must be complimentary, enhancing your current roles, perhaps creating new ones rather than just making you more powerful.

So therefore the idea of statistical power creep is redundant?

Chris

#665 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:50 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Brainstorm statement.

I am assuming that you wouldn’t want a progression system in which new skills and traits superseded/replaced existing skills and traits.

Thus all progression must be complimentary, enhancing your current roles, perhaps creating new ones rather than just making you more powerful.

So therefore the idea of statistical power creep is redundant?

Chris

I am trying to see if we can just remove conversation around any form of statistical evolution in the CDI?

Chris

#669 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:56 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

#671 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:56 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Here is a crazy brainstorm idea, not in anyway indicative of our direction.

What if there was vertical progression in the Fractals with gear that increased in stats but when outside of the fractals defaulted back to BiS numbers?

I am asking this because it is going to generate some left field conversation not because I think it is or isn’t a good idea.

Chris

This would be quite awful.

As people grow in power within the fractals, they would eventually reach a point where they can clear the lower level fractals easily enough and fast enough that it becomes the new way to farm. At that point, you get to pick one:

  • Reduce rewards in the fractals, especially the lower level ones.
  • Reduce the power players have earned in the fractals because some are using it in ways you don’t like.
  • Make the fractals tougher to compensate.

All three of these will unfair to new players in the fractals, as well as unfair to the people that have earned their way up through honest play.

However…

Let’s add a new item slot to characters. Call it “Luck Charm” or something. We can come up with a few of them, but one version will be specific to the Fractals. It starts at level 0, and can be leveled up like AR. And as the party’s Fractal Luck goes up, there’s an increased chance of a rare fractal showing up. Or a rare variant of a normal fractal. Maybe these fractals will give better rewards than normal? Maybe they’re just fun? Maybe there’s a really REALLY rare one that gives a title if you see it ( and bonus points to ANet if they can disable screenshots in that fractal ).

There’s some horizontal progress for the fractals that I bet people would love.

Yep some good points and cool ideas here.

Chris

#673 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:59 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I think it would be cool if we can get a proposal together for treatment of stat based evolution as it currently stands in the game and then concentrate on Horizontal progression ideation.

Chris

#677 - Dec. 14, 2013, 7:59 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Im simply amazed at the amount of people that are opposed to vertical progression being confined to FoTM. If you think about it, it is the only place ascended gear is required(currently). So why does a stat increase even need to exist outside of it?

If ascended stats were confined to fractals, then the rest of us who may not want to step foot into fractals would not need to worry about power creep or a treadmill in the open world.

Im very much in favor of this and again, Im amazed that people are against it.

Yep and kudos to you Cesmode for offering the counter argument.

Chris

#678 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The idea of having inter profession specializations is pretty intriguing and could really work. It’s also an excellent way to introduce new weapons and skills. It should require some sort of effort( not too much) to specialize and should happen at level 80.

I always loved hybrid class design in AD&D.

Chris

#679 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:02 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

#683 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:04 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

I dislike this idea. Its similar to allowing legendaries to be tradeable on the TP. People with thick wallets to turn $$ into gems into gold can purchase their way to BiS…or people with loads of time to farm materials to sell can purchase BiS.

It solves nothing, unfortunately. For me it would be more of salt in an open wound than helping alleviate the problem.

Doesn’t it allow another avenue for players to work toward the gear if they don’t enjoy crafting? Initially prices may be prohibitive but i would see them dropping.

Chris

#694 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:08 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Once we have discussed more of the question I listed above I will put together a proposal that we can discuss and then move onto Horizontal brainstorming.

I am going to head in game and play for a kitten

ris

#697 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:09 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them?

Chris

#701 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:10 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them? Thus complimentary to acquisition.

Chris

#709 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:15 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Absolutely. Once again, no reason at all to restrict gathering of high tier gear to any one method of acquisition. Allow all pieces to be bought and sold. Allow all pieces to be traded for using a variety of the in game currencies that are already in place (dungeon tokens, karma, laurels, glory, etc.)

You do realize that even just one of these pieces will run well over 50 gold….Im thinking closer to 100. For one piece. If people have that much gold on hand, you might as well just buy your precursor as well while youre at it.

Whats interesting to think about is that if this went live and people started buying ascended gear off the TP, these are most likely going to be the people who have their legendaries already, and probably multiple legendariesalready because they have fat wallets in the real world and able to buy gems. Its amazing… people complain about legendaries being tradeable on the TP, but this would be acceptable?

Doing this would cause greater disparity between a RL richboy vs the normal joe, and the 24×7 farmer and the normal joe.

Yep this is definitely a valid concern. If the drop rate was higher though and it wasn’t just crafted then supply could be more deterministic in terms of demand.

Chris

#721 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:28 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok i am going to play GW2 for real now (-:

See you in the morning or maybe later.

Chris

#723 - Dec. 14, 2013, 8:29 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Thanks so much for doing this. It isn’t easy! Virtual Hug.

Chris

#932 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:03 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Anyone here have a huge complaint against the idea of being able to buy Ascended Weapon/Armor Chests with some of our account-bound currencies?

Maybe~

Guild Commendations – 150 commendations, any stats
Badges of Honor – 800 badges, any stats
Dungeon Tokens – 1,000 w/ stat combinations matching the each dungeons’ existing flavors
Fractal Relics – 1,500 w/ stat combinations matching the current capacitors

((all quantities subject to change and offered only to inspire thought))

Good question. And morning/afternoon everyone. Just reading through all the new pages and great discussion. This is awesome.

Chris

#938 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:15 p.m.
Blizzard Post

All this thread seems to me ,that you (anet) have derailed so much from the original idea of the manifesto and what gw2 were suposed to be ,that you dont have any idea of what direction the game is going.

All since the introduction of ascended gear,you have craeted such a kittenstorm that now you are sinked to the knees in it and do not know wich direction to go.

What makes me angry about all this ,is that you got it right in Gw1,so i still can not understant how can you manage to screw it up so much,yeah sure Gw1 has its flaws and whatnot,but instead of improving on the idea of Gw1 to create Gw2 ,you just converted this game in to a massive grind ,and its not a grind for aestethics like Gw1
its a vertical grind for better gear (that was absolutley no needed ,exotics should have been the las tier of gear).

And you now what the worst part about all of this is?,well the game is no fun anymore
its just a massive grind.
People didnt want ascended gear,nor living story(another grind ,this time for achivements).

What people do want is ,new skills ,new traits ,new weapons for each professions,new wvw maps,new spvp modes,new zones new enemies new classes…..

Any way im just angry at what this game could have been ,and what it sadly have become,i dont know if you are stil on time to fix it but i hope you can come with a solution to all this mess .

I know that this i not a constructive post,but come on this all thread just reeks of the fact that anet have lost northwith the direction of the game.

It is a ‘discussion’, a chance for us all to talk about the game we are so passionate about. An opportunity for the community and developers to brainstorm, theory craft and ultimately evolve a pioneering game with. If it makes you uncomfortable then don’t be part of it. But don’t for one minute assume that we don’t have direction, of course we do. However we are a ‘live’ game with an amazing community and thus the CDI provides us all the opportunity to evolve the game in a much more informed and valuable manner. So please try not to confuse assumptions around lack of direction with the reality of community/developer collaboration.

Chris

#941 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:20 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I think it would be cool if we can get a proposal together for treatment of stat based evolution as it currently stands in the game and then concentrate on Horizontal progression ideation.

Chris

Awesome inspiring ideas from everyone. And while it would be great to have the best of everything, I feel that we have to be practical about this. So far the overall thoughts in the thread lean towards more horizontal progression and more accessible vertical progression. So while I really like some of the more elaborate plans to make stats less gear bound or introducing new gear systems… I tried to think up a proposal with the following in mind:

The fewer resources it takes to make vertical progression manageable, the more resources we have available for horizontal progression.

So without further ado:

Proposal for the treatment of stat based evolution.

In chronological order:

  • (Early 2014) Announce a large increase of ascended gear sources.
  • (Early 2014) Announce the end of stat based gear tiers. (Even if just for the forseeable future, 2 years?)
  • (All over 2014) Use the time bought by vertical progression to come up with horizontal alternatives.
  • (Mid-late 2014) Increase the amount of ascended gear sources dramatically. Everyone who plays about 8 unfocused hours a week will have multiple characters in ascended gear at the end of 2014.
  • (2015) Final destination: ascended gear is just about two/three times as hard to get as exotic gear currently is, so we can afford to make different sets for different builds. By then there should be enough horizontal progression in place to keep us busy.

Interesting proposal(-:

Chris

#947 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:30 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Incidentally I think the idea of giving ascended gear stat-switching ability gives us a kind of metric for determining how difficult it ought to be to acquire.

Say, (for example), ascended can go with 12 stat combinations. Functionally the same thing can be achieved by multiple exotic sets, but that’d be far less convenient.

Add in a bit of a premium for that convenience and in principle ascended gear perhaps ought to be priced around 15-20 times the ‘effort’ required to get exotic gear.

I’m not talking about gold price on the TP; exotic gear value has taken a dive due to it being much less desirable now, and so freely available. I’m talking effort in terms of playtime to get the karma/dungeon/celestial/cultural sets.

I’m completely on the fence about making ascended sellable via TP. If the acquisition is tuned too high the prices will be astronomical and we grind gold while watching inflation push it continually out of our reach. If it’s too easy, ascended becomes a redundant brand of exotic. There is a certain convenience factor to that and it is seductive.. but darn it, I like the idea of gear attainable through gameplay only. And gameplay challenges more than through repetitive gameplay, but.. well, not everybody could beat Liadri even if you did put an ascended weapon on her.

Though if ascended remains a source of ‘vertical’ progression and not optional, all that goes out the window: it has to be easy.

I know that’d still devalue what people’ve already put into gearing up their characters, but I can’t think of a good solution that honors that effort while putting ascended in reach of the average 1-2 hour/day guy with multiple alts. That’s the reason why I think communication on the subject from Arenanet can’t come soon enough.

Yes, I know you’re communicating! I’m grateful. But getting a ‘game plan’ out to players is crucial, whatever ends up decided.

Many of you have mentioned this problem, so let’s discuss it some more. If the supply of ascended gear is made more accessible to the populous either through drop rates of items and mats, and/or sale ability of gear then is this something that is acceptable to early adopters?

Regarding:

‘Yes, I know you’re communicating! I’m grateful. But getting a ‘game plan’ out to players is crucial, whatever ends up decided’

There has been a clearly communicated game plan. Our focus is on Horizontal progression and I felt that Ascended was a necessary step. However as many have pointed out this gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary and thus be a better bridge. Personally i feel like it could be made more accessible through playing different parts of the game. Once we have concluded the discussion on the tightening up of Vertical Progression we will move onto Horizontal discussion. Huzzah (-:

Thanks for your input and i hope that adds some more clarity.

Chris

#949 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:35 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them? Thus complimentary to other forms of acquisition?

Chris

What’s the point of having an unique skin drop from a challenging encounter if you can just buy it on TP? Isn’t the point of the skin showing you beat the challenge? If a unique gear is gonna drop from a challenging encounter, it should be guaranteed and account bound, and the encounter really tough.

Yep your right sorry I should have given more detail in the brainstorm idea. In the idea I imagined Sunless not being trade able but other normal Ascended gear being trade able. Note this is just a brainstorm idea.

Chris

#957 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:41 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I came up with this long ago but never made a post about it.

What about a diffrent part of Fractals of the mists that’s sort of a boss. Everytime when a party defeats a boss, they will fight against a harder boss. When the party is wiped, the party will get tp’ed back to the instance and have to start over. This will be hard content. I bet Arenanet and the community could think of bosses/ enemies from the past/present. Everytime you defeat a boss you will get better loot. (and mayble punish the players by letting them do it once a week.)

This is just my idea for progression (hard content).

Interesting Dark.

Chris

#960 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:49 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hello everyone,

i would like to give my point of view.

I have had problems motivating myself to play Guild Wars 2 for a while know. Here is my personal reason why: I love character progresstion.
I love game with a vast amout of thinks where my character can evolve. I love getting new attacks, getting new ways to combine my attacks, getting new cool weapons and abilitys. Mechanics that opens up while new levels of gameplay.

I am not the gear type, i dont care much about vertical Progression.
I am more in love with horizontal progression and this is,

where Guild Wars 2 lacks.

I play as Warrior and although i have plenty of Alts, my Warrior is my favorite.

But since there are so limited skills and abilities my character can obtain, i dont feel like progressing any longer. I know that i could go for some ascended gear but i am not really interesstet in shiny new armor. I would like to be able to choose my own fighting style rather then only my own look.

As the skill system in Guild Wars 2 is right now, people like me will feel unsatisfied without more abilities to be learned.

Personally i would like to see an enhanced combat system with more ways to progress, with more styles to play. The warrior next to me may have a better looking Greatsword than me, but he will always play like me, execute the same weapon skills with that awesome sword like me, no matter what. I feel like there are not enough ways to individualise at the machinical level.

Hi Fey,

I play a PVT AOE Heal shout War. I have played this role fora long period of time and have never played a DPS War. On top of this I am also easily able to hold agro and support my group. My DPS is terrible but I keep my team alive while they run around destroying everything (-: The reason I raise this is because I would like to know what your role is with you War and I am wondering if you are aware of the different roles that each Profession can play dependent on their traits/skill/sigil/rune and weapon setup?

Note I ‘Look’ like a DPS war because i use a great sword (greatsaw) and a Longbow (Arthropoda). I like you believe that Horizontal Progression should be about role differentiation, however I feel like this system is already very core to the game but that we could do a better job of teaching how it works to a broader audience.

In short there are multiple War and profession roles and thus it is quite unlikely that that War next to you plays just like you.

Chris

#963 - Dec. 15, 2013, 12:57 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I am heading out for a bit and will be back home this evening. I feel like having read all of the discussion and great ideas that we are closer to putting forward proposals but not quite there yet. No worries though because we have a ton of time to continue to discuss so let’s give this part of the topic the time it deserves and continue to enjoy the conversation and collaboration.

Personally I am really enjoying and looking forward to more Horizontal Conversation but as they say, all good things come to those that wait.

Catch you all later,

Chris

#968 - Dec. 15, 2013, 1:01 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok another brainstorm idea.

What if certain pieces of ascended gear could be crafted and sold on the TP such as gloves and boots?

Chris

Yes please, or even better:
All pieces could be crafted and sold on the TP.
All pieces could change stats.
All pieces could be obtained outside crafting without relying on RNG.

Personally and note this is not the opinion of Arena but I like the idea of uniquely skinned BiS items dropping in challenging content. My opinion as a player is that the current drop rates could be tweaked.

Chris

That will not remove the RNG factor…. Look at it this way:
Say you increased the drop rate on Tequatl. That means a higher change to get a weapon. But it is still RNG.
Some people will get several drops, others will get nothing, most will get items with the wrong stat combination. Please, please, please: No more RNG!

What if you could sell them? Thus complimentary to other forms of acquisition?

Chris

What’s the point of having an unique skin drop from a challenging encounter if you can just buy it on TP? Isn’t the point of the skin showing you beat the challenge? If a unique gear is gonna drop from a challenging encounter, it should be guaranteed and account bound, and the encounter really tough.

Yep your right sorry I should have given more detail in the brainstorm idea. In the idea I imagined Sunless not being trade able but other normal Ascended gear being trade able. Note this is just a brainstorm idea.

Chris

Non tradeable content-specif skin is great. Tradeable run-of-the-mill ascended sounds good in the beginning, but at these drop rates, they’re gonna be as expensive as precursors, and very prone to speculation, flipping etc… I think higher drop rates and keeping them account bound makes it more interesting. You could be able to pick in the box the type of gear and stat combo tho.

Bottom line: Find it while playing always beats the “farm, buy on tp” drudgery. But drop rates have to be decent.

Agreed.

Chris

#977 - Dec. 15, 2013, 1:16 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I want to post this here while Chris is active. At least that way my posts might be seen.

Thoughts on Vertical Progression
Levels
Geared Stats

Thoughts on Horizontal Progression
Cosmetics
Achievements

Hi Mun,

Just wanted to let you know that I have read your posts and that I do stay on top of the thread. I read it as often as I am able. The reason there is no reply to the Vertical post you made is that I feel i have discussed those points in other responses. In regard to Horizontal I am focusing on Vertical currently so we can cap that conversation and move on.

Hope that makes sense?

Chris

Hi Mun,

Just wanted to let you know that I have read your posts and that I do stay on top of the thread. I read it as often as I am able. The reason there is no reply to the Vertical post you made is that I feel i have discussed those points in other responses. In regard to Horizontal I am focusing on Vertical currently so we can cap that conversation and move on.

Hope that makes sense?

Chris

#1044 - Dec. 15, 2013, 8:07 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi All,

Just got back and am up to date. There are a number of posts I am going to think about before replying. I will either reply tonight or in the morning.

Chris

#1123 - Dec. 16, 2013, 10:41 a.m.
Blizzard Post

I play a PVT AOE Heal shout War. I have played this role fora long period of time and have never played a DPS War. On top of this I am also easily able to hold agro and support my group. My DPS is terrible but I keep my team alive while they run around destroying everything…

I like you believe that Horizontal Progression should be about role differentiation, however I feel like this system is already very core to the game…

Chris

It’s an excellent point that I think gets overlooked because of the prominence of popular cookie-cutter builds. I feel like those builds are good teaching tools, but it’s easy to lean on them as crutches. There seems to be a reluctance to stray too far from the “tried-and-true” builds.

I’d like to see Horizontal progression in terms of role diversification and hybridization. I’d love to see more options for “exotic” builds that step outside of the normal comfort zone of the professions to add more flexibility to builds, and new ways to engage content (read as: wreck kittens).

It seems to me that there are a lot of options for dps and damage mitigation, but there is tremendous opportunity to expand the meta game in other aspects of combat:

  • Toggle Abilities
  • Inter-profession Synergy
  • Environmental Synergy

Toggle Abilities are Player States that are either on or off, depending on what the player needs at the moment. Risk and Reward should be a big part of Toggle balancing. For example, Warriors could have a “Determined Stance” that, when on, provides the Warrior with Stability, but drops Critical Hit Chance to 0% while the Toggle Ability is active.

Inter-profession Synergy is something that could be really exciting. It could also be really complex. It could work something like this:

  • This would be a Party mechanic that you would set up when you form your Party.
  • Each Profession has 1 Synergistic Effect with each of the other 7 Professions.
  • Each Party Member can only have 1 active Synergy Effect at a time.
  • To set up the Effect, you target the Party Member and “Offer Synergy”.
  • The Party Member accepts or declines the Synergy.
  • Synergies can be changed at any time outside of combat.

When the Synergy is active, both players benefit from the relationship. An example would be “Bond of Blood” between Warrior and Necromancer. While the Synergy is active, the Warrior’s attacks generate Life Force for the Necromancer. While in Death Shroud, a portion of the damage the Warrior takes comes off of the Necromancer’s Life Force Pool instead. This encourages players to work together in new ways.

Environmental Synergy is another Party Mechanic that could work in a number of ways, but basically it changes the ways professions operate under different circumstances. For example, a Guardian could have “Valiant Avenger” that grants the Guardian +Power or +Might for every Party Member that is either downed or dead. Necromancers could have “Parasitic Bond” that grants +Condition Damage for every Party Member that is below the Health Threshold. Rangers could have “Alpha Dog” that provides +Critical Damage for every active pet/minion in the party.

Hi JSDuke,

I agree with your initial points and also your ideas are very interesting. Certainly thinking out of the box, but at the same time building on core foundations.

Chris

#1130 - Dec. 16, 2013, 11:12 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

#1138 - Dec. 16, 2013, 11:23 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

Possibly, or in lieu of that a means to add flexibility to the gear to allow for stat changes without needing to create a whole new set (see my inscription idea as an example).

Someone creates a whole set of berserker ascended and finds themselves getting rolled still (as glass cannons do) in WvW may have buyers remorse when that PVT set starts looking mighty tempting…

Yep thanks Volk for adding Stat changes to the proposal.

’Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

The ability to change gear stats.

The ability to potentially use tokens from encounters (allowing users to work toward acquisition of Ascended Gear) that would otherwise only offer RNG chances on Ascended Gear, allowing users to work toward the items (courtesy of Nike and others)’

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion.

Chris

#1179 - Dec. 16, 2013, 12:11 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I realize this is a bit behind the current debate but it was a good question which seemed worth answering.

Agreed. Let’s spend a little more time discussing and brainstorming the following questions:

Controversial: Vertical Progression acquisition can be a pain but what if any elements do you like about Vertical Progression?

Lets keep coming up with some awesome Horizontal Progression systemic ideas and also reward ideas?

Try to tie these ideas into the core foundation of GW2’s systems and mechanics please.

Chris

While I prefer horizontal progression, vertical progression does not in and of itself suck, the problem is that ANet chose perhaps the poorest quality way of developing vertical progression. Vertical progression via items is particularly terrible because of its innately “temporary” feeling, bottom line sooner or later all of the effort you’ve put into vertical progression via item grind becomes pointless. I’ll try to explain my thoughts on the subject succinctly below.

What is fun about vertical progression?

  • The feeling of character growth
  • The thrill of progress and the feeling that your efforts are being rewarded
  • The ability to display your time and effort spent

What is not fun about vertical progression?

  • The invalidation of all of your past efforts
  • The feeling of monotony

What might be done to make vertical progression in GW2 more enjoyable?

  • Attach more progression to your character rather than gear
  • Make gear upgradeable rather than disposable

People rarely point out SWTOR as a brillaint show of MMO ideas, but lots of the account unlock ideas worked into SWTOR would work nicely in GW. This material was all doubtlessly vertical progression but it wasn’t attached to RNG and the newest “Sword of Pwning +1” that would soon be made worthless by your “Sword of Pwning +2”. Even in GW2 the new approach to infusions (though it sucks that they can’t be removed, fix this) is built on developing strength rather than replacing it. You combine your +1 infusions to get +2s, rather than just throwing those +1s away.

Good post Dreamer. Excellent food for thought.

Chris

#1191 - Dec. 16, 2013, 12:19 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I can’t possibly disagree more with this opinion. If accessibility becomes to easy you will soon enough find a new problem where some players have all the ascended gear they want.

I think the direction gaining momentum is less that acquisition needs to be faster and more there need to be multiple paths of comparable difficulty/time investment.

Making each piece count as all 17 possible pieces (and hey, what happened to Giver stats anyway…?) at the same time as allowing players to acquire them by multiple tracks simultaneously is gonna turn the tier into a rubber stamp, not an intermediate activity while inching up on your Legendary.

I understand the appeal for the players, but I don’t think it’s a good call for the game.

As a result they’ll begin to demand more progression past ascended.

I don’t think I’m alone in my willingness to tell those players “bite me.”

‘Vertical progressionists’ had their say once already and the result is this morass we’re digging out of now.

Lets not indulge in the insanity of repeating it.

Hi Nike,

There is no morass and no concept of ‘us’ trying to dig ourselves out of it.We are having a discussion about accessibility around ascended gear in relation to how the community wants to acquire it. I still stand by its inclusion and want to ensure that it is equidistantly positioned between Exotic and Legendary. I also want to ensure it is accessible to all players specifically in regard to how they play within the world.

These are all areas we have thought about at Anet. Personally I don’t think there is anything wrong with having an open discussion with everyone about how the play, and their feelings toward the opinions of other members of the community and the Developers.

Like i keep saying i am very much looking forward to concentrating on Horizontal Progression. In the meantime however I want to make sure that we give Ascended the attention it is due.

Chris

#1195 - Dec. 16, 2013, 12:22 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Still no Dev comment that I’ve seen on Time Gates, something that many players brought up early in this thread. Sort of disappointed by that.

Hi Herr,

I have asked Izzy to respond to that particular question as mentioned on Saturday. Note however that I do not expect my team to work over weekends, therefore i am sure he will respond as soon as he can.

Chris

#1210 - Dec. 16, 2013, 12:39 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi Nike,

There is no morass and no concept of ‘us’ trying to dig ourselves out of it.

((shrug)) I won’t quibble over the use of evocative terminology, but I suspect if we could somehow call for a show of hands and asked “Hey, how many people think BiS gear for 10 slots should be gated behind RNG and Crafting with ZERO alternatives” you’d end up counting more chirping crickets than paws going up .

((chirp—chirp—chirp))

Like I keep saying I am very much looking forward to concentrating on Horizontal Progression. In the meantime however I want to make sure that we give Ascended the attention it is due.

Other than wrangling some numbers/price points which would be better handled by people who can actually poll the game’s progress metrics (i.e. not us players), I think I’ve said my piece .

I look forward to the Horizontal Phase also…

…You sure you wouldn’t rather start it as a fresh and focused thread?

Might work out better than ‘gating’ it behind 30+ pages of tangential-at-best reading .

Sorry you don’t see it this way Nike. But this thread has been super useful for us already and no doubt super useful to those who have spent the time to contribute to it.

Chris

#1213 - Dec. 16, 2013, 12:41 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Give the ascended gear either “limited” stat swapping or full stat swapping like legendaries…or a way (a quest for instance) that would allow you to Add a stat for stat swapping.

If there were epic quests in place where you could unlock stat combinations for your gear that’d be.. awesome. That would be unbelievably awesome.

No more grind; make it about challenges.

I agree, would love to hear from Chris on this idea specifically, epic quest chains to unlock swappable item stats and new item stat combos.

This is a cool idea. Lots of logic problems to think about in regard to it. Need more time to think (-:

Chris

#1241 - Dec. 16, 2013, 1:15 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Sorry you don’t see it this way Nike.

Ironically, I personally don’t have a major issue with Ascended gear as it was introduced. To me it mostly does what it set out to: The tier gives me a series of goals to work towards. I’ve faithfully put Ascended rings & amulets on every one of my nine 80th level characters. Half of them also have ascended back items and accessories. I’ve crafted 2 Ascended weapons, had a third drop as a chest, and made my first piece of Ascended armor (for cosmetic reasons more than the stats) just this morning. If I were solely focused on a single Main and a BiS perfectionist I would be very nearly done devouring the system that’s been put in place.

For that reason its hard for me to feel the system is too fast. But I do think it’s too limited in the play styles it caters to. I happen to be a crafter and harvester. I don’t expect everyone else to be those things too .

But none of that makes me unaware of the unrest my fellow players are experiencing.

But this thread has been super useful for us already and no doubt super useful to those who have spent the time to contribute to it.

I agree completely. Its been an entertaining ride as always. And I look forward to seeing the impact on the game when it works its way through the system.

In suggesting a separate thread, I was just pointing out this thread has two orthogonal narratives jumbled together and reading 800 posts about vertical progression may have kind of buried the 50-odd posts addressing new horizontal concepts.

IF this board has the moderation tools to surgically lift those out and start a new thread with them that would be great. If not, obviously you can’t… And I wouldn’t want people to have to re-post their thoughts in a new thread by hand. Just expect than when the thread does formally shift gears to “Lets talk Horizontal” you’re still gonna get Ascended chatter and people who’ve only read page one shotgunned all through the new topic .

I understand, thanks for the extra detail Nike.I was thinking about your suggestion to about splitting the thread but I worry about the lost discussion in regard to horizontal by doing so.

Chris

#1264 - Dec. 16, 2013, 1:50 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Is it fair to say that regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method?

Chris

I would say that is true pretty much about all items. However I see this strategy being problematic unless you increase the overall amount of items in the game. Supply vs demand basically. Scale it so that ascended weapons/armor only drop from the hardest of pve related events in the game, and exotics drop from lower difficulty events, and just leave the drop rate of precursors the same so that you dont diminish the rarity of legendary’s. PvE in this game has so much potential however has been largely undeveloped.

I like this idea of higher drop rates for harder content but it still neglects wvw so I would like to add. Higher drop rates in wvw from Player kills modified by the players rank. Higher rank = better chance to get something good from them. In theory higher rank players should have more experience and thus be more difficult to fight.

Interesting idea.

Chris

#1265 - Dec. 16, 2013, 1:55 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Is it possible for us to get an idea from you, Chris, of the concepts you think stand out and may have an impact on the future of progression? Right now it’s a lot of you repeating our ideas optimistically, but not a lot of context (with all due respect).

I have been building a proposal on behalf of everyone. I am still seeing how the discussion plays out on other ideas. I will continue to update the proposal. This is how I am approaching the ideation discussion. I think I have called out the idea that are interesting however I don’t understadn what you mean by ‘Not a lot of context’.

If you are looking for definitive promises on work actions then I am afraid that is something I won’t be doing. If you are looking for thoughts on direction moving forward then you can find this all over the thread and there will be a summary in this regard upon conclusion of the Vertical discussion before centering of the Horizintal discussion.

Hope this helps?

Chris

#1267 - Dec. 16, 2013, 1:57 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Also Chris, you said that you would be thinking on the whole Fractal reset thing (to Romo quite a few pages ago). Can those of us who are interested in that particular response expect to see something about it in this thread or will it be brought up in a separate one?

Thanks!

I think it is ok to discuss it in this thread and honestly I am still thinking about it.

Chris

#1336 - Dec. 16, 2013, 6:11 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Putting the fractals aside, I just wanted to thank you, Chris for taking your time in discussing ideas and views in these topics. Given some ideas are quite interesting, some very detailed, optimistic and creative, while some are quite scary and self-motivated. Regardless the focus and issue you seem to give people hope that they’re being heard. That their passion for the game is being seen by people that made what we, the players, practically love.
It is understood that most of the ideas will never see the daylight, but one way of another you give people the feeling of importance that they are being heard. Even if those things are not implemented in one way maybe they’ll be implemented in another aspect giving the collective mind some meaning in this whole thing.
I have to admit that when this topic began I had very little faith left in me as to where this game is headed, but as I read though most of the replies, the positiveness and the passion behind some of the ideas and suggestions are very uplifting. And having you and the team to acknowledge these ideas even by something small as “That’s an interesting idea” gives me and I’m sure many of us some hope for the future of this game (:

Hi Romo,

Thank you and many for your kind works regarding CDI (It isn’t necessary, I understand you guys and girls all care but it does make me feel more confident about the overall importance of the CDI). To give some insight: some of our conversations lead to direct action following internal discussion, most carry through to meetings in our offices and help us to navigate problem solving and solidify or build new/existing ideas. More importantly however we get a better understanding of how you the citizens and heroes of Tyria, the life blood of the world live and breathe the design of the world. I have 2k hours played but nowhere near enough to have a broad spectrum of understanding about what you like and don’t like or how you would see it working better. On top of that I love the game but I am an individual and have my own opinions about what I like and don’t like. So to have broad strokes of players from all walks of Tyrian life and different likes and dislikes discuss the with one another these topics often gives us much needed perspective. On top of this it helps everyone to get a good understanding of the big picture of the logic interaction of our systems and mechanics thus making us all more empowered to make valuable moves to making GW2 the very best online world it can be.

Anyway in short the CDI has a huge impact.

Finally I am in between meetings so sorry for the dump of info.

Chris

#1352 - Dec. 16, 2013, 6:59 p.m.
Blizzard Post

It’s been a long day at work, so please understand that if I come across as less than pleasant, it is not my intention.

When this thread was started, we were discussing vertical vs. horizontal progression.

We, en masse, were trying to discuss what types of vertical progression was acceptable and what kinds were not, and also suggesting ways to incorporate more horizontal progression.

What it has seemed to turn into is a large discussion of Ascended gear. We truly need more discussion of horizontal progression.

I am one of those players who truly does not care if I ever get ascended gear or a legendary. (if it happens someday, cool, but not actively pursuing it.) The key for me is that there be no content that requires ascended gear. I do not want to be locked out of something simply because my gear doesn’t cut it. Yes, I know that some players will be elitists and ask to ping armor, and if you don’t have ascended, you’ll get kicked. That isn’t what I mean.

Horizontal progression to me is having the world at my fingertips, and being able to gain shineys or awards that give me the sense of accomplishment other than having a specific set of gear that says “Hey, I’ve got money!!!” or “I can farm better than you can!!!”

I think that some of what we need is less Gem Shop items and more In Game items. Why should all the cool armor and weapon skins be Gem Shop? I am not opposed to them, but there needs to be a balance of in-game rewards as well. We have a number of sets of back items (just lovely…/endsarcasm) but “special” armor or weapon skins are almost exclusively gem shop items or BL Chest lottery, which again, is Gem Shop related in that you have to get the keys from somewhere since they don’t drop in the world very often. I can honestly say that the only keys I have ever gotten have been from PS rewards or purchased. I can’t remember any other time I have ever had one drop.

I also suggest that there be a chance to get unique skins from Champ encounters. I wouldn’t want them to drop from low-level champs, but anywhere there’s a level 75-80 champ that takes more than a few people and more than just spamming 111111611111 to kill. If that’s still too much, how about Temple events? or maybe completing the zone meta event for a level 80 zone?

Anyways, I digress. The point of this post is that we have pretty much forsaken the discussion of implementing any horizontal progression in favor of discussing the pros and cons of Ascended armor and how to go about getting it.

TL;DR:
Might it be a possibility someday to open a CDI solely on ideas for horizontal progression and leave this one to the discussion of Ascended gear?

Hi Ashabhi,

Once we have finished talking about Vertical we will cap that conversation and move onto purely Horizontal. Note though that it is important to have had the initial phase where we have discussed both as they do inter relate or at least have done.

Please also note that this thread will be going on until the New Year, so plenty of time for further discussion.

Hope your day gets better,

Chris

#1354 - Dec. 16, 2013, 7:04 p.m.
Blizzard Post

You might want to edit that .

(Horizontal and Vertical are reversed)

Thanks Nike. Doh!

Chris

#1359 - Dec. 16, 2013, 7:11 p.m.
Blizzard Post

It’s been a long day at work, so please understand that if I come across as less than pleasant, it is not my intention.

When this thread was started, we were discussing vertical vs. horizontal progression.

We, en masse, were trying to discuss what types of vertical progression was acceptable and what kinds were not, and also suggesting ways to incorporate more horizontal progression.

What it has seemed to turn into is a large discussion of Ascended gear.
…..

Anyways, I digress. The point of this post is that we have pretty much forsaken the discussion of implementing any horizontal progression in favor of discussing the pros and cons of Ascended armor and how to go about getting it.

TL;DR:
Might it be a possibility someday to open a CDI solely on ideas for horizontal progression and leave this one to the discussion of Ascended gear?

Snipped by me to highlight my favourite bits. I, personally, would be happy to copy/paste and/or rewrite my posts on horizontal progression in a thread dedicated to actually discussing horizontal progression.

Here’s my summary of the vertical progression discussion:
1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.
2. We want more ways to acquire it and more ways for alts to gear up.
3. Do something with the rune/sigil system. It’s awful and punishingly expensive right now.
4. Don’t give us yet another tier of gear after ascended. It will burn up the remainder of any goodwill you still have.
5. Don’t reset vertical progression in the future. Doing the reset to fractal level without doing anything to acknowledge the work people did before the reset (a title, a helm, a little trophy in their home instance, a single post on the forum acknowledging the issue; ANYTHING) was shoddy, and you’re better than that.
6. Make use of karma and other currencies.
7. Remember the mission statement of “Play how you want”

Thanks Guhracie,

Some good points here. I wont answer them individually but they will impact the evolved proposal I put forward for us to discuss.

Note a number of people have asked about the proposal. Basically it allows us to hone in one the core individual proposals and then discuss the whole. The proposals will evolve and when we are all happy with it we can cap the Vertical progression conversation in this thread and then I will feedback on my thoughts etc.

Chris

#1369 - Dec. 16, 2013, 8:18 p.m.
Blizzard Post

The proposals will evolve and when we are all happy with it we can cap the Vertical progression conversation in this thread and then I will feedback on my thoughts etc.

((Shakes head)) ‘When we are all happy with it’ ((Bursts into slightly manic giggles))

And people call me an optimist .

Incidentally, your mailbox is full.

Ok so we aren’t going to get to the point where everyone is happy. Please forgive me for my turn of phrase (-:

Chris

#1373 - Dec. 16, 2013, 8:58 p.m.
Blizzard Post
Herr der Friedhoefe.2490

Still no Dev comment that I’ve seen on Time Gates, something that many players brought up early in this thread. Sort of disappointed by that.

So I know time gates is a pretty hot topical overall as I’ve had some pretty heated debates in the past over it. So here is my view on them.

Summary
Overall I think time gates are important for an MMO, while they have pro’s and con’s for sure, in my opinion the overall gains come out ahead. That said I think there is diminishing returns to the number of time gates in a game. This brings up a core design philosophy which is “it’s always easier to add to then it is to take away” (while in this example it is a bit inverse, as adding a time gate is “adding” but it’s really taking away the players ability to repeat the action as much as they want). Meaning, we error on the side of time gating as we can always remove a time gate if needed but it’s really hard to add one. One clarification I would like to make is there are two different time gates: One time and repeatable. I think most of the complaints about time gates are all on the repeatable end, so I’ll focus my thoughts on that one.

Con’s
- Time gates hurt players with more time (by this I mean players with more time run up against time gates more and their time becomes less rewarded over time.)
- Repeatable time gates add “pressure” to complete the content before the gate resets, this can add fatigue to players play experience (If I have 15 things I need to do every time I log in, I never feel like I get to do what I want to do.)
- Time gates are very calculable (You know how many dailies you need to get x reward.) It’s hard to say how many days it takes to hit level 80 as it’s very dependent on too many factors. Knowing the time can sometimes make it feel more daunting or tedious.

Pro’s
- Time gates help players with less time (If I can only play an hour a day, my time is more rewarded.)
- Repeatable time gates add “pressure” to log in which helps create possible reward loops and play patterns (I want to log in every day, which often can become play experiences, talk with friends, strengthen relationships and get players into a pattern of seeing what’s going on.)
- Time gates equalize players by bringing the hardcore and the causal players closer together. (Players play at an variety of different times and intensities. This makes balancing wealth disparity and play times/progression much harder without actual gates.)
- Time gates help group players up (guilds 1 week timer helps group a large amount of play times into the same time frame.)

Reasons for time gating
- Exploits (Many time gates are there to avoid exploits)
- Overflow issues (the way our tech works without a time gate, you can use overflows to reset your timer)
- Reward Equalization (keep the time to do something more even between hardcore and causal)
- Character vs Account (some things we want to reward the account and thus an account time gated reward allows us to do that cleanly, which stops people from deleting characters and renaming in order to acquire a large number of things)

Overall I feel like time gating is important for an MMO because it’s important to close the gap between the causal and hardcore group so you can make sure your future rewards and content are useful for a wider variety of players. For example if there was no level cap and everyone could level as much as they want, hardcore players would be at level 4561 and a causal player would be at like 100. Once that happens, it would be very hard to make anything that both of those players would be happy about getting. MMO’s also have what I like to call “mass” to them, the more people playing and logging on, the more fun they are and systems which encourage people to log in often help create that mass. People see their friends regularly even just to say “hey there is an event this Sunday with the guild” or “hey lets set aside some time Friday so we can do fractals”. Now this doesn’t mean I feel like we can just add time gates everywhere. In fact I think you need either a very large amount of time gated stuff so a player can play for ever and never run out of things to do (which is a bit unrealistic) or you need non-time gated rewards and game play. This is why we create places for people to farm for all types of things. We like people who farm a lot, we are just always trying to make sure farming doesn’t blow out an item so much it’s no longer worth farming as it sort of defeats the whole reason to farm. A nice mix of time gates and non-gates is important. I think there are some valid complaints that we have over time gated some areas of the game and we should do some reviews of our time gates to see if adjustments should be made, but the game needs time gates for many reasons and if they were not there the game would be way less fun for any type of player.

#1380 - Dec. 16, 2013, 9:20 p.m.
Blizzard Post

1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.

Players rarely ever want their pet class nerfed, but its still necessary to the health of the game to do it from time to time. Consensus and Balance are distantly related on the best days and full-blown adversaries on more than a few.

While I have some issues with the specifics of Ascended acquisition, it’s not that hard to recognize the pressures at work that convinced them that the concept needed to be introduced to the game.

Keep in mind that prior to the release of the first Ascended items, the single most efficient way to advance your character was play the Trading Post. Full Stop. If you spent your time doing DEs or running dungeons you were a serf laboring in the fields in the service of your Trading Post betters. It was soul-sucking. Nothing you could do swinging your sword came close, and even today most people have this obsession with amassing gold when doing so mostly fattens you up to get fleeced at the market. The range of rewards that must be earned rather than bought is still astonishingly thin.

If anything the current crafting-only model of weapons and armor is a bit of a backslide towards ‘TP-uber-alles’. I sincerely hope that the currencies of heroism like skill points, karma, and various tokens get moved back to center stage as the means and the measure of characters’ mechanical advancement ~ vertical or horizontal.

I really just set out to summarize the thread to see if anything new was actually being said about vertical progression, or if we were just going in circles, this far into the discussion about it. And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion. Regardless, that was basically the first sort of comment that was picked up and addressed in the thread.

I’m in total agreement about consensus vs. balance, but I think it’s clear that balance isn’t being discussed here, on many levels.

I’m all for progress, and there’s truly no way to please everyone, but given the possibilities for vertical progression in a game like GW2, it seems like a middle ground other than “gear treadmill” might have been a more viable solution.

Hi Guhracie,

Will all due respect there has been a huge amount of dialog, discussion, ideation, summary and proposals. If you want to add value to the thread then I suggest you read it. Until then I am going to take everything you say with a large handful of salt. Sorry.

Chris

#1381 - Dec. 16, 2013, 9:22 p.m.
Blizzard Post

1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.

Players rarely ever want their pet class nerfed, but its still necessary to the health of the game to do it from time to time. Consensus and Balance are distantly related on the best days and full-blown adversaries on more than a few.

While I have some issues with the specifics of Ascended acquisition, it’s not that hard to recognize the pressures at work that convinced them that the concept needed to be introduced to the game.

Keep in mind that prior to the release of the first Ascended items, the single most efficient way to advance your character was play the Trading Post. Full Stop. If you spent your time doing DEs or running dungeons you were a serf laboring in the fields in the service of your Trading Post betters. It was soul-sucking. Nothing you could do swinging your sword came close, and even today most people have this obsession with amassing gold when doing so mostly fattens you up to get fleeced at the market. The range of rewards that must be earned rather than bought is still astonishingly thin.

If anything the current crafting-only model of weapons and armor is a bit of a backslide towards ‘TP-uber-alles’. I sincerely hope that the currencies of heroism like skill points, karma, and various tokens get moved back to center stage as the means and the measure of characters’ mechanical advancement ~ vertical or horizontal.

I really just set out to summarize the thread to see if anything new was actually being said about vertical progression, or if we were just going in circles, this far into the discussion about it. And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion. Regardless, that was basically the first sort of comment that was picked up and addressed in the thread.

I’m in total agreement about consensus vs. balance, but I think it’s clear that balance isn’t being discussed here, on many levels.

I’m all for progress, and there’s truly no way to please everyone, but given the possibilities for vertical progression in a game like GW2, it seems like a middle ground other than “gear treadmill” might have been a more viable solution.

Hi Guhracie,

Will all due respect there has been a huge amount of dialog, discussion, ideation, summary and proposals. If you want to add value to the thread then I suggest you read it. Until then I am going to take everything you say with a large handful of salt. Sorry.

Chris

Personally following the last proposal I put forward I am still listening and thinking to the CDI groups discussion and considerations. I am sorry if this isn’t moving fast enough for you but this thread isn’t closing anytime soon and I am a patient man.

Chris

#1395 - Dec. 16, 2013, 9:44 p.m.
Blizzard Post

1. We didn’t want another tier of gear; you guys knew that and implemented it anyway, so now we’re stuck with it.

Players rarely ever want their pet class nerfed, but its still necessary to the health of the game to do it from time to time. Consensus and Balance are distantly related on the best days and full-blown adversaries on more than a few.

While I have some issues with the specifics of Ascended acquisition, it’s not that hard to recognize the pressures at work that convinced them that the concept needed to be introduced to the game.

Keep in mind that prior to the release of the first Ascended items, the single most efficient way to advance your character was play the Trading Post. Full Stop. If you spent your time doing DEs or running dungeons you were a serf laboring in the fields in the service of your Trading Post betters. It was soul-sucking. Nothing you could do swinging your sword came close, and even today most people have this obsession with amassing gold when doing so mostly fattens you up to get fleeced at the market. The range of rewards that must be earned rather than bought is still astonishingly thin.

If anything the current crafting-only model of weapons and armor is a bit of a backslide towards ‘TP-uber-alles’. I sincerely hope that the currencies of heroism like skill points, karma, and various tokens get moved back to center stage as the means and the measure of characters’ mechanical advancement ~ vertical or horizontal.

I really just set out to summarize the thread to see if anything new was actually being said about vertical progression, or if we were just going in circles, this far into the discussion about it. And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion. Regardless, that was basically the first sort of comment that was picked up and addressed in the thread.

I’m in total agreement about consensus vs. balance, but I think it’s clear that balance isn’t being discussed here, on many levels.

I’m all for progress, and there’s truly no way to please everyone, but given the possibilities for vertical progression in a game like GW2, it seems like a middle ground other than “gear treadmill” might have been a more viable solution.

Hi Guhracie,

Will all due respect there has been a huge amount of dialog, discussion, ideation, summary and proposals. If you want to add value to the thread then I suggest you read it. Until then I am going to take everything you say with a large handful of salt. Sorry.

Chris

I do not even know how to begin to respond to this. My hands are literally shaking right now, on account of the time and effort I have put into reading and responding to this thread, and generally into participating in the forum.

I wouldn’t want to give you heart trouble, so I’m going to go ahead and reduce your sodium intake. I’m done.

However, for what it’s worth, the previous statement was in no way meant to be an attack on you in any way, and I’m sorry it broke down our communication and/or made you feel badly. I’m truly and honestly not sure what you found to be so insulting. I just re-read what I wrote and maybe it was the bit about not discussing balance?

Seriously, there are people here who are mocking your ability to play the game you work on and obviously love, but I’m the one who gets a handful of salt? Stay classy.

Hi Guhracie,

The point you made that bothers me is this:

‘And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion.’

We are very passionate about the game, the community and the CDI. As such a huge amount of effort goes into it both from a Dev and community standpoint. I am sorry if I have upset you, that is not my intention. The point I am trying to make is that the CDI isn’t about what the Devs say, it is about the discussion we all have and the conclusions that are drawn from this. Thus if I am saying that if something is an interesting idea I am saying that I am thinking about it and that it is worth group discussion in my opinion.

I hope this makes more sense?

Oh and in regard to folks questioning how I play. Well that really is water of a ducks back, and I would rather expend my energy have a healthy conversation than spending time explaining the obvious.

I am truly sorry for upsetting you.

Cheers

Chris

#1397 - Dec. 16, 2013, 9:50 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

#1401 - Dec. 16, 2013, 9:56 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

You mean to say, they do not work 20 hours per day and love it? What is this witch craft?!

Go get your daily done and get to sleep!

And then answer the question(kidding).

But maybe you could leave a post-it on his desk tomorrow morning! haha.

I just did my daily, killed SB, Karka Queen and Claw of Jormag and now i intend to go home and get some sleep.

Thanks all for a great contribution today, I really appreciate all the passion and value you are sharing toward GW2 and I will see you all tomorrow.

Chris

#1402 - Dec. 16, 2013, 9:57 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

You mean to say, they do not work 20 hours per day and love it? What is this witch craft?!

Go get your daily done and get to sleep!

And then answer the question(kidding).

But maybe you could leave a post-it on his desk tomorrow morning! haha.

Oh and you might laugh about the post-it note but I did send him an email (-: I am sure he will really appreciate that.

<3 you Izzy!

Chris

#1403 - Dec. 16, 2013, 10:02 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of

1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <-- thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.

Dyin’ to know this one.

Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

Hi Cesmode,

This is one for Izzy for sure. I am sure he will respond tomorrow. In all honesty I set a bad example in terms of my presence on the thread and I think that skews expectations on members of staff who aren’t workaholics (-:

Chris

hi chris!

i want all gear to be able to unlock stats skins and swap to them. i know a lot of other people want this too. will this be considered? thanks!

for example,
unlock armor stats one by one, swap armor stats
unlock runes one by one, swap runes

unlock weapon stats one by one, swap weapon stats
unlock sigils one by one, swap sigils

unlock armors skins one by one, swap armors skins
unlock weapons skins one by one, swap weapons skins
unlock trinkets inventory icons one by one, swap trinkets icon

unlock and swap various infusions too.

Hi Deimos,

I have definitely read this and sorry for not discussing it sooner. This is not something I can comment on currently. Sorry.

Chris

Edit: Thanks Deimos for pointing out the typo. I really need to get some sleep.

#1406 - Dec. 16, 2013, 10:14 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi Guhracie,

The point you made that bothers me is this:

‘And, truly, without more meaningful feedback than “Interesting ideas” there’s not much more that we can do with the discussion, in my opinion.’

We are very passionate about the game, the community and the CDI. As such a huge amount of effort goes into it both from a Dev and community standpoint. I am sorry if I have upset you, that is not my intention. The point I am trying to make is that the CDI isn’t about what the Devs say, it is about the discussion we all have and the conclusions that are drawn from this. Thus if I am saying that somehting is an interesting idea I am saying that I am thinking about it and that it is worth group discussion in my opinion.

I hope this makes more sense?

Oh and in regard to folks questioning how I play. Well that really is water of a ducks back, and I would rather expend my energy having a healthy conversation than spending time explaining the obvious.

Cheers

Chris

Okay, I see where we broke down, and I totally understand why that sounded insulting. That is absolutely not what I meant by it. I don’t believe you are brushing us off by responding with “interesting ideas,” but I feel like there’s a point where the discussion does become circular due to your own constraints of not making promises or getting into specifics (both are totally reasonable and understandable).

As for me sounding impatient…. that’s because I am. I came into this thread excited by the topics, and I feel like the topic has become “ascended armor” when it was supposed to be about progression. I am not even slightly interested in discussing ascended armor. If I have a single crafting skill above 400, it was on accident. I am in no way saying that it’s not a valid topic of discussion for vertical progression, please do not misunderstand me. I just had a different expectation of what this topic would be covering, and I wasn’t expecting it to be dominated by ascended armor.

I’d be totally happy to sit out of a CDI called “Ascended Armor” and let the people who feel strongly about it discuss it. But I currently feel like I have to plod through posts about ascended armor so I don’t miss something that might be relevant to my interests… which is why I mentioned a summary of what has been mentioned about vertical progression. I’m anxious to get to horizontal progression because it’s one of the biggest reasons I switched to GW2 from WoW. And if I knew I wasn’t missing out on any of that discussion (or other vertical progress ideas not pertaining directly to ascended armor), I’d probably be spending way less time in this thread.

I’m terrible at portraying tone in text, but I am seriously sorry you felt like I was diminishing your efforts in this thread. That’s not what I meant at all. Thank you for your clarification. I think I’m going to take a break from foruming for right now- sometimes I get too stuck in my own head, as well.

<Virtual hugs>. I too am anxious to get to the Horizontal Progression part of the thread and I think we will get there soon, but I still think there is some discussion to be had before moving on. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and understanding my passion around GW2, the community and the CDI. I look forward to continuing to discuss the game with you whatever the topic may be.

Chris

#1416 - Dec. 16, 2013, 11:37 p.m.
Blizzard Post
videoboy.4162

Isaiah,
I see where you’re coming from with the time gates. My question is, do you think that allowing players to craft two or three items per day would be too detrimental?

Well the crafting gating we added was actually for a different reason then gating the speed in which someone can craft ascended gear. We wanted to make people who level up crafting able to do something to gain gold each day. The time gate here goal is much more focused around making gold then limiting crafting as you can bypass it with gold. This does break down when someone has a lot of characters and has an endless demand for these mats. This problem I put under alt problem and we just need to brainstorm more ideas on how to make life easier for people with lots of characters.

timmyf.1490

Izzy-
I think that’s some great info on time-gating and helps us to understand why you use it. I would add that, in addition to casual-vs-hardcore, you should consider single-vs-multiple character players.
Time gates that might be reasonable for players with a single character could be entirely ridiculous for those of us who have eight.

I think your totally right and I think we do keep these in mind, it’s why we made sure for each mat people can acquire it in both multiplier and single player ways. We don’t try and balance these to be equal just to make sure they are reasonably doable. We did be a little cautious on ascended mats in WvW as we didn’t want to drive people to farm there in an unnatural way. After playing it I do think we need to make some adjustments in this area.

The Lost Witch.7601

These two have their own con’s:
- If I can only play an hour a day, I don’t want to spend any of that time loading into Lions Arch to do my crafting and do my daily. Yet that is what I often find myself doing, and it freaks me out.
- I don’t want to log in every day, I need to spend some time on something else. I want to put GW2 away for a few weeks and invest in other parts of life. (Be it other forms of play/studying/traveling/social calls/an intense working period or who knows what.) But I will be ‘behind’ on progress if I don’t log in. And it is so ‘easy’ to just log in and get those time gated things done… but they make it really hard to take a break!
You make a fair point, but these should really be a part of the con’s in your list!

Well this comes down to your play style it’s not like there is anything forcing you to log in every day just slows you down if you don’t and as for being behind I think when the new thing comes out there is a stronger pressure around “being behind” but as time goes on that pressure goes away. Sense we are normally planning on how something will work in the long term we are ok with there being a bit more pressure when something first goes out but someone who starts one month from now will have a very different feeling.

Chris Whiteside

<3 you Izzy!

<3 you too Chris but I responded before reading your note/ email victory is mine.

Just so everyone knows Chris loves these threads a lot and we do talk about them a lot even as he was leaving today he was all excited as we talked about the discussions here so thanks everyone for making my boss all happy

#1418 - Dec. 16, 2013, 11:44 p.m.
Blizzard Post

…it’s becoming pretty clear at this point that the CDI is not what I interpreted it as being. I hesitate to call it an outright failure as, at best, we’re not going to be seeing any of the fruits of our labour for at least several months but the reality of what we are seeing now is definitely not what I was anticipating when the CDI stone was started in it’s rolling.

I’m sort of curious what you thought could happen that isn’t or the time you felt was reasonable to see ideas be converted into action?

Because personally, I find the turn around time between the close of the Living Story CDI and the announcement that the 2 week release schedule is being put on hold AND their revealing in advance the end date for the Scarlet Storyline were breathtakingly fast manifestations of that discussion.

Cause and effect, as far as I can tell.

While it is true in how we work it’s hard to get fast turn around to ideas and I think a lot of the discussion and ideas need to be vetting more to make sure we are not missing something I do find these open discussion help drive discussions in the office and can help with priority. The goal of these in my mind isn’t to come away with a set of action items but to help share some insight on how we do things and why. This in turn gives people a greater understanding of how our game is made and can help improve communication between the dev’s and the community which can often lead to higher enjoyment for everyone.

#1419 - Dec. 16, 2013, 11:49 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I hope ya’ll realize that most every pro and reason you just listed gets negated by allowing players to bypass time gates via gold.

This is why we really count crafting gating as a soft gate it is not meant to be a hard gate, but we have a lot of other time gates in the game daily, gathering, guild mission cool down, fractal daily timers ect. I know most of the concern about gating is directed at the crafting gate but I’m more trying to give insight to why we use time gates at all.

#1420 - Dec. 16, 2013, 11:57 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Here’s an crazy idea that’s a little out of left field:

What if any profession could use any armor type?
With this one change you would instantly have access to a wider range of aesthetic choice for their character. Not only would your characters get a wider aesthetic choice, but you could have some really crazy builds with it but it would completely squash the idea of the “trinity”.

In order to assist with balance, you could perhaps give certain advantages/disadvantages with each type of armor. Heavy armor would give you increased armor rating, but decreased movement speed. Medium armor would give a healthy dose of both. Light armor would give you the most movement speed, but lowest armor rating. The ability to mix and match would significantly widen the range of builds and survivability.

Bizarre use cases!
Guardians could switch to medium armor to focus more on DPS, then survivability. Ele’s could wear heavy armor to boost their survivability and perhaps encourage more melee Ele’s in PvE. When was the last time you saw a D/D ele in a dungeon? (It’s rare!) And imagine what would no doubt be everyone’s nightmare? A necro in heavy armor! Good lord, it would be glorious!

One thing to keep in mind how our system works is you can’t mix heavy, medium and light armor together the way we lay out the texture means these items can never be mixed. After that while it would open up some options you always have to be careful with making profession all feel the same. This is all ready a big struggle as we want all professions to fill multiple roles but it’s important some professions have weakness that they can overcome if you let your weakest character be a toughest as your toughest then they both lose some some of what makes them different

#1426 - Dec. 17, 2013, 12:21 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Personally following the last proposal I put forward I am still listening and thinking to the CDI groups discussion and considerations. I am sorry if this isn’t moving fast enough for you but this thread isn’t closing anytime soon and I am a patient man.

Chris

Chris,

My apologies if I am just missing something, but I cannot find this proposal you are referencing. Searching through the Dev Tracker and this thread, I see the following:

11:55 – a post stating that you are building a proposal.
17:11 – a comment about several points that will impact the in-process proposal.
19:22 – the above quote where you refer to the previously presented proposal.

Unfortunately, I do not have much time to post back-and-forth during the week, nor time to sift through 29 (and counting) pages, but I would really like to see the resultant direction of this discussion and have a chance to comment further before the Vertical segment is closed and Horizontal is opened.

Would it be possible to post a summary proposal for the direction of vertical progression with a very easily identifiable and bolded title for those of us that are time-impaired during the week?

Hi Bill,

I will try to make the next evolution of the proposal easier to access. The Lost Witch did a great summary which I plan to link to the OP as well.

We need to build a better way of referencing summaries, proposals and major discussion points in the CDI for sure. But that is a topic for the next CDI Process Evolution thread.

Chris

#1427 - Dec. 17, 2013, 12:23 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Izzy, you gave an example a little earlier about how it’s a problem that there’s a big gap between players who play a lot versus players who don’t play as much, and you mentioned an example of the hardcore players being level 4000 while the casual players are 100.

I don’t think this example really works, because this game doesn’t have any kind of vertical progression like that. In fact, before ascended gear, the hardcore and the casual players were on a level playing field, time-gating or not. Exotics were all anyone had to worry about, and they weren’t too difficult or time consuming to attain. Now with the ascended crafting, it actually makes things worse. Players who don’t play as much have less laurels, they miss days to do their ectoplasm refinements, have less materials to use, less money to buy materials they might need, etc. So I’m failing to see how the time-gating helps keep a minimal gap between hardcore players and casual players on a power level, especially when one didn’t really exist before.

At this point, the only purpose this time-gating is serving is what you just said: it keeps a stranglehold on the ascended material market so that some players can make money selling instead of crafting. Is that really worth it? I agree that crafting is largely useless when it comes to actually being profitable for players, but there has to be a better answer than crippling our ability to advance at a reasonable speed. Especially when we want to have multiple builds, outfit multiple characters, and outfit those multiple characters with multiple builds of their own.

I was using the example to explain how time gates help equalize players goals and focus them together. Another example would be guild timers without them a super hard core guild would have finished all guild levels in 1 night where other guilds of equal size might take months. Then if you design new content around the guild that can do that much content in 1 night then the other guilds just get left behind in the dust. Vertical or horizontal progression doesn’t matter a player who is going to take 3 years to do something everyone else and in a few weeks makes it hard to balance. Now gates don’t make them equal at all, the players with more time will still complete things faster take my guild example the super good guild still finishes something in 5 weeks that took the other 3 months, but it does help close that gap. You really don’t want them to be that close you just don’t want them to be crazy far apart.

This also is super important for wealth disparity as far as economy goes but I’m keeping the examples as much around progression as economy is a totally different discussion.

#1428 - Dec. 17, 2013, 12:29 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Izzy,

It seems that the team would be in a great position to start coming up with a lot of smaller and maybe new fresh ideas for character progression. It’s early on in the game’s overall lifespan (knocks on wood), you’re trying to learn more about what the community likes and wants.

Now seems like a really good opportunity to break down character progression into numerous smaller pieces, there’s already lots of LONG term goals. What and how to do this are pending, but big picture if progression content is scatter throughout the world in smaller chunks (relatively speaking, with perhaps some variations in size) a couple important things may happen.

1) The concentration of players may change, and people might start exploring maps for the character progression content.

2) People may feel better about progressing alts, because they can go after smaller things they want for specific characters.

3) The dev team can collect metrics based upon the content that gets put out to see what people are doing most, and what people are repeating.

The hope for the team would be that releasing fair amounts of smaller character progression and related content is more feasible when it comes to turn around time. Spreading it throughout the existing world would hopefully allow reutilization of some existing content as opposed to having to completely develop from scratch.

I don’t know how the teams at ANet feel about casting a wide net of small content for progression, but RPGs are all about character progression, so you’d be pretty guarenteed all the content would be encountered a lot and can get a good idea of what to expand upon.

Food for thought.

I think this is an interesting way to look at it but one of the important things about progression is you want a common thing to communicate your accomplishments. For example if I say I just hit rank 2000 on my little pony race adventure time, you have no idea if that was a hard thing or not, but if I said I just hit 20k achievement points you have a good idea of how much effort that was.

I think your thoughts are pretty much what horizontal progression tries to do give lots of little options all over for people to do as many as they like, but keep in mind this still creates a lot of work in creating common language for people to communicate as well as requires a lot more work. Not saying it’s not worth it just trying to explain the trade offs.

#1556 - Dec. 17, 2013, 10:28 a.m.
Blizzard Post
cesmode.4257

Im still waiting on some response about future progression in terms of
1. Ascended runes and sigils — Will they ever be in the game?
2. Will Ascended runes and sigils be only allowed on ascended weapons and armor? <— thus forcing the player to craft the ascended armor first before being able to utilzie the ascended rune or sigil.
Dyin’ to know this one.
Edit: I know you all are busy and/or could be formulating a proper response to it Just waiting!

We’ve talked about ascended runes/sigls as I think there are a number of balance issues with the current runes and sigils and it would allow us to make some tweaks to it that are harder to make without it but I don’t think we feel any need to do it yet and maybe not even at all. We have talked about how we are going to bring Jewel crafting and Cooking up to 500 but overall we really want to see how armor pans out and we would like to spend our time more on horizontal progression.

#1561 - Dec. 17, 2013, 10:43 a.m.
Blizzard Post

Thanks Chris and Izzy for taking the time to have such a fantastic discourse with the community. I appreciate the time gating post by Izzy, but there is an issue with it: Wealthy players can buy the end result materials and negate the time sink. Casual players or even more regular players that don’t have a lot of disposable in game income can not. It makes for an unequal playing field. I think time gates should be universal.

I really love the above post that talks about adding 7 time gated materials per week. You can only make 7 a week, but you can make them all on the same day.That would actually benefit casual and hard core alike. You can do it all at once and forget it till the next week. There is a caveat with this system though: It needs to be universally time gated. The end result materials should not be available for purchase.

I think that vertical progression is better rewarded with in game items and not leaderboards that aren’t in the game. I want my progression to be represented in game. Titles and emotes do a great job of this in game. I think the Fractals needs it’s own set of armor to compliment the weapons and show off to other players that you do them. It is after all the only place in game where AR is needed. What better way to show off that you are at a certain fractal level (vertical progression) than with a set of armor that only drops at a certain tier or above? Fractal titles are a good way too. Leaderboards don’t show it off in Tyria and that is where my vertical progression matters.

Yeah the 7 time gate thing is interesting there is a bit of a challenge to communicate something like that clearly and it has some economic impacts like currently T7 cloth goes for 10g but takes 4 or 5 to make so you can make a good 5 or 6 gold if you could choose you would simply craft all t7 cloth x 7 right now which would drive the price down quickly. The whole goal of the time gated crafting is to allow people to crafting something that is worth more then the mats because of our global trading post most materials are worth so close to the mats that crafting is rarely profitable unless your doing something like pitching for precursors. The demand for the materials is higher at the start but even the ascended weapons ones you can still make a gold or so off them. I’m not 100% sure how something like allowing players to craft any of 7 items would effect things I think some materials which have lower demand like leather would just be crafted a lot less in favor of cloth and ore which would start to normalize the materials which makes the whole system a little less interesting. (So need to an economic CDI at some point lol)

Some other interesting ways we could midigate the pressure on alts is just make all ascended gear account bound it would remove some demand but it’s something we’ve discussed before. Another idea is we could make it easier to craft ascended gear after you’ve made the first set, or we could allow you to duplicate ascended gear with some recipe so once you’ve created one set you can copy it for an alt for less. You could allow people to give up other time gates for the crafting one by letting people craft stuff with laurals or mystic coins. These are all some of the ideas or concepts we toss around for how to solve some of the alt issues. As for crafting your first set of ascended gear we want this to take a bit of time before you get to our horizontal progression systems. These are all some random brainstorm ideas that need a lot more vetting but I wanted to give some examples of other ways to work around some of these issues.

#1566 - Dec. 17, 2013, 10:52 a.m.
Blizzard Post

We’ve talked about ascended runes/sigls as I think there are a number of balance issues with the current runes and sigils and it would allow us to make some tweaks to it that are harder to make without it but I don’t think we feel any need to do it yet and maybe not even at all. We have talked about how we are going to bring Jewel crafting and Cooking up to 500 but overall we really want to see how armor pans out and we would like to spend our time more on horizontal progression.

Hi, Thanks for the response! Get the email or the post-it note?

So this is semi comforting that you have not definitively decided on doing it yet, or if at all. I definately agree that JC and cooking need a boost and judging by this thread I think these are areas where you can lighten up on the requirements to craft in these disciplines. And it is good to hear that now that ascended armor is here, you are turning your focus to horizontal progression.

Question: How would it make your job easier to tweak balance issues if ascended sigils and runes were introduced, vs simply tweaking the existing ones? I don’t understand this.

Also, and one thing to keep in mind: If you ever decided to go ahead with introducing ascended sigils and runes, please allow them to be put into exotic gear. This would not force a player to grind up to 500 in a craft just to get these items.

While I could see how ascended gear feels like our focus as been on vertical progression I don’t feel like that is the case we spend a lot more time adding many things I would consider horizontal progression. I feel like new stat combos, skins, skills, traits, crafting recipes, mini pets, achievements, ect… are all horizontal progression and we have spent a lot more time and resources on expanding those systems by far.

Ascended Runes/Sigils: This is mainly an issue with acquisition of the exotic ones there is just a large number of worthless runes mainly due to the balance between supply and demand, while I think there are a number of balance tweaks needed to bring more in line I don’t think the total supply of all runes/sigils comes anywhere near the total demand for all runes and sigils which means over time runes and sigils value just gets less and less. It’s much harder to change that as it requires changing the value of a lot of current items. There are other systems we could do to fix this problem like we could make there be a less chance to salvage them out or make all runes/sigils crafting and when you salvage them you get some material that is used so we can adjust supply and demand between those.

Our system doesn’t really support limiting upgrades by rarity and I don’t think this is something we would do if we wanted to go that route we would just make infusions better sense they are naturally limited by ascended gear but that’s also a can of worms.

#1574 - Dec. 17, 2013, 11:01 a.m.
Blizzard Post

TLDR/Conclusion:
So, I will be able to run level 39 fractals in a month’s time, 2 months if I were a fresh new account, my friend will barely be able to afford 1 ascended ring, or one ascension item and he will still be running level 1-9 in 2 months because you want to “help” casual players. Timegates do NOT work, they will never slow down a hardcore player, all they achieve is to make us math things out to get max efficiency. Fractals really make a lot of the other timegates useless too, just an fyi for your game.

L2P an MMO tips:
Chase the furthest attainable carrot for your gamestyle (ie: not wvw achieves if you are an achiever), chances are you’ll grab a few of the others along the way without even trying. As well as making a ton of gold, because games are generally misbalanced like that to incite players to even bother going after that far away carrot.

The goal isn’t to make hardcore and causal players have equal times that would make for a pretty unfun game, goal is to just bring the ratios between them slightly closer instead of 100 to 1 get it to 20 to 1 and stop it from becoming 1000 to 1 over 10 years.

Some of the debate your leading into is time gating vs skill gating which is pretty tricky skill gating is important for a game but it drives a lot of people away. I actually think we need to add more skill gating but skill gating progression I think leaves some really strong imbalances and leads to really nitch hard core user base. This is why skill gating into horizontal progression rewards is good because this can allow people to do hard things but doesn’t require people to do it. This is why ascended armor is designed to be achievable by anyone just takes time to so.

#1617 - Dec. 17, 2013, 12:51 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of actions or schedule.

Chris

#1680 - Dec. 17, 2013, 2:51 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

Note this is the formulation of a proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of actions or schedule.

Chris

Bump. We are close to being able to move onto the ‘focused’ Horizontal Progression part of this conversation.

Does anyone have anymore comments on the proposal above based on our discussions?

Chris

#1746 - Dec. 17, 2013, 5:27 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I very much hope to see clear results from these CDI topics down the road.

It’d be great, after the process of going through the information, talking behind closed doors, spending the months it takes to implement changes, and finally putting it into game, if Chris could point back to these threads and show us where something in this conversation made a real difference in the game.

I like this idea:

’ if Chris could point back to these threads and show us where something in this conversation made a real difference in the game.’

Chris

#1755 - Dec. 17, 2013, 6:40 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok folks. Thanks for all of your input. I will take this proposal and discuss it with the team.

Let’s take a break tonight (feel free to carry on chatting if you like) and tomorrow let’s begin the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression! Huzzah.

Chris

P.S: Remember the thread is going to be open until the new year, so take your time, and where possible try to be concise and have fun!

#1757 - Dec. 17, 2013, 7:01 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Ok folks. Thanks for all of your input. I will take this proposal and discuss it with the team.

Let’s take a break tonight (feel free to carry on chatting if you like) and tomorrow let’s begin the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression! Huzzah.

Chris

P.S: Remember the thread is going to be open until the new year, so take your time, and where possible try to be concise and have fun!

And while you are all taking a break check out a commentary on the great work you are all doing:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/17/flameseeker-chronicles-we-will-control-guild-wars-2s-horizonta/

Chris

#1759 - Dec. 17, 2013, 7:32 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi All,

Chris

Bump. We are close to being able to move onto the ‘focused’ Horizontal Progression part of this conversation.

Does anyone have anymore comments on the proposal above based on our discussions?

Chris

The above proposal for vertical progression really only relates to ascended gear. Since ascended gear is now pretty much all in the game (and noting your comments on ascended runes / sigils), does this mean there will be no more vertical progression going forward?

I would like to see futher vertical progression, which was not gear based.

HI Abramelin,

Can you elaborate on the type of Vertical Progression you are referencing please? This will help me better understand your question.

Chris

#1890 - Dec. 18, 2013, 12:29 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

#1937 - Dec. 18, 2013, 6:55 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Dev post recap: part 3

Page 31-39

Earlier recaps:

Dev post recap: part 1

Dev post recap: part 2

General:

Isaiah on ascended runes and sigils

Isaiah on ascended and alt issues

Chris’s final proposal on ascended gear going forward

Dev questions and discussion requests:

Should we make a new thread for horizontal progression?

Devs responding to individual posts:

Isaiah posting two more replies on page 32

Chris may look back at the CDI in the future and let us know how it impacted design

The end of this part of the CDI: Character Progression – Ascended gear:

Chris thanks us for the input and takes the proposal to the team

Since the previous recap we have finetuned Chris’s proposal and had some aftertalk concerning timegating. It is now time to move on to horizontal progression. And that topic may very well get a new thread!

<3

#2013 - Dec. 19, 2013, 12:29 p.m.
Blizzard Post

Hi All,

Latest Summary:

CDI Dev post recap: part 1
CDI Dev post recap: part 2
CDI Dev post recap: part 3

And a discussion about the thread on Massively!

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/17/flameseeker-chronicles-we-will-control-guild-wars-2s-horizonta/

Chris

#2014 - Dec. 19, 2013, 12:32 p.m.
Blizzard Post

I am going to lock the thread in preparation for the vertical discussion thread. Thanks for your awesome participation and the value that you have added to GW2.

See you soon.

Chris