Horadric Trash Compactor

#0 - Aug. 18, 2010, 3:45 p.m.

I'm not sure if I approve of the Salvage Chest thing, Blizzard. Torchlight had a similar mechanic, the pet, that encouraged the player to pick up every item they found, no matter how low quality. It greatly de-valued items as a whole becuase it meant players didn't have to be choosy about what they took and what they left. The pet became a big item toilet for flushing out items when your inventory was full, and after a while it felt like everything was crap. The only drawback to doing so was the loss of your pet for a minute or two and a reduced sell price. Since the pet was useless in combat anyway, it didn't matter at all.

Now to compare the Salvage Chest (as I'm calling it). Again, you can take any equippable item and salvage it into materials like essence, scraps, or bone. The drawback is that the newly produced item has to sit in your inventory until it can be used. This is dangerous territory, because based on what you've shown in the video, even normal items can give up one piece of scrap and the player is able to stack at least thirty in one square. Not only is it tempting to grab every normal item, but they must also be processed six at a time.

The other drawback appears to be that the item can no longer be sold for gold. Seems like a valid penalty, if gold is going to be valuable. But then you have to decide if the salvage is more or less valuable than the gold you'll get for the item. It seems that under the current system, the fact that salvage can be stacked and carried in such high quantities will give it the edge.

As for solutions, a quick fix would be reducing how much salvage stacks. Or even if it stacks at all. At the very least, converting an item to salvage will Halve the amount of space it takes in the inventory, but if it still accumulates it will discourage hoarding. I thought of having Scraps salvage drop only randomly from normal items, but then it would make the problem worse.

Or hell, why not just circumvent the problem completely and have salvage not take up inventory space and give some other way of aquiring it. If you need salvage to level up the artisans, maybe have it accumulate automaticaly based on what you're fighting.

Bashiok

#3 - Aug. 18, 2010, 4 p.m.

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure if I approve of the Salvage Chest thing, Blizzard. Torchlight had a similar mechanic, the pet, that encouraged the player to pick up every item they found, no matter how low quality. It greatly de-valued items as a whole becuase it meant players didn't have to be choosy about what they took and what they left. The pet became a big item toilet for flushing out items when your inventory was full, and after a while it felt like everything was crap. The only drawback to doing so was the loss of your pet for a minute or two and a reduced sell price. Since the pet was useless in combat anyway, it didn't matter at all.

Now to compare the Salvage Chest (as I'm calling it). Again, you can take any equippable item and salvage it into materials like essence, scraps, or bone. The drawback is that the newly produced item has to sit in your inventory until it can be used. This is dangerous territory, because based on what you've shown in the video, even normal items can give up one piece of scrap and the player is able to stack at least thirty in one square. Not only is it tempting to grab every normal item, but they must also be processed six at a time.

The other drawback appears to be that the item can no longer be sold for gold. Seems like a valid penalty, if gold is going to be valuable. But then you have to decide if the salvage is more or less valuable than the gold you'll get for the item. It seems that under the current system, the fact that salvage can be stacked and carried in such high quantities will give it the edge.

As for solutions, a quick fix would be reducing how much salvage stacks. Or even if it stacks at all. At the very least, converting an item to salvage will Halve the amount of space it takes in the inventory, but if it still accumulates it will discourage hoarding. I thought of having Scraps salvage drop only randomly from normal items, but then it would make the problem worse.

Or hell, why not just circumvent the problem completely and have salvage not take up inventory space and give some other way of aquiring it. If you need salvage to level up the artisans, maybe have it accumulate automaticaly based on what you're fighting.

Maybe I'm missing the concern, but you seem to be pointing out that the player will now have interesting choices on how to deal with the items they find. Either vendoring them, salvaging them, or trading. This is a good thing.

Personally I think if it means that people have a reason to pick stuff up and not leave a trail of lower quality items littering their games... that seems like a win.

Bashiok

#12 - Aug. 18, 2010, 4:35 p.m.

Q u o t e:
It's not really a choice, though. Items now show how much they sell for in their descriptions. Fill up your inventory with loot. Once you find a new thing, salvage the least valuable and repeat. Thus you return to town with the maximum amount of gold and salvage.

But will the least valuable break down to the components you need?

Bashiok

#16 - Aug. 18, 2010, 4:54 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Doesn't matter if it's what you need or not. I doubt carrying 30 items is better than carrying 29 items plus 60 items worth of Salvage. You can always break down important items for rare resources later. Worthless and common stuff is free to be hoarded.

To a point.

Bashiok

#24 - Aug. 18, 2010, 5:56 p.m.

Can you try formulating your concern again for me? I'm still not quite understanding the actual problem, and I want to be able to get it answered for you.

Bashiok

#29 - Aug. 18, 2010, 6:47 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Grug's right. The issue here is that this is a mechanic that is apparently supposed to save time.

No, no, no, it's an optional way to create items for yourself as an addition to the drop game.

Q u o t e:
The problem is that this is a time saving mechanic that generates more work.

Is it more work than doing runs and runs and runs hoping an item drops? Meanwhile you could be salvaging and working toward crafting an item of similar quality.

Q u o t e:
which you will need in future encounters.

You don't need to salvage anything if you don't want to. It's an optional way to craft items and fill out your set. Don't care about crafting or want to spend time picking stuff up and salvaging it? Ignore it. You may have to kill more to get a piece you want, but that's your choice.

Bashiok

#34 - Aug. 18, 2010, 7:03 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Alright, well tell me this, are the best items in the game created only by crafting?

Not exactly.

Our ideal end game character will sport a mix of items found from drops, and crafted items.

Also keep in mind that to even be able to craft the best crafting items you'll have to find the recipe first.

Bashiok

#37 - Aug. 18, 2010, 7:08 p.m.

Q u o t e:
You simply have forgotten that Salvaging items doesn't really consume any amount of time.
We have shortcuts like CTRL + LeftClick to instantly pick up the item to the salvaging chest.
You just double click to salvage and Pick ALL materials.

It's quick. And the inventory is huge so you can go a while before having to do any clean up.

Bashiok

#45 - Aug. 18, 2010, 7:22 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Will this salvage system work from the very beginning? Will we start salvaging from level 1?

No, but it's introduced very early.

Bashiok

#52 - Aug. 18, 2010, 7:48 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Okay I think I've got a better summary.

You fill up you inventory, you recycle low-value items until you have a heap of scraps (the name for the least valuable and most common type of salvage). Soon you have a huge amount of scraps. If recipes require large amounts of scraps, then normal items become more valuable for scrap than for gold, and it becomes obligatory to turn all normal items into scraps. If recipes require lesser amounts of scraps, then the players will accumulate more scraps than they will need, causing them to either wind up with a surplus or just leave the normal items on the ground.

Ok, so your question is more about the variety and scale of what items can be broken down into. I got it. And I have no idea so I'm gonna ask Wyatt and Jay if they can answer.

Bashiok

#69 - Aug. 18, 2010, 10:57 p.m.

Jay's response was "If its not worth picking up for gold, it is definitely not worth picking up for crafting."

Essentially any player worth their salt is going to favor gold over crafting materials, simply because it's required for so many other things that are important to a high level character. And essentially a lot of this comes down to tuning and making sure the relationship between all of the systems isn't broken, and all we can say to that is we appreciate your passion for the game. :)

Bashiok

#74 - Aug. 18, 2010, 11:14 p.m.

Q u o t e:
So how does it feel to be refuted by the boss man, Bashiok? Did he tread on your dream of picking up every item? That reply from you probably colored the proceeding conversation in a big way.

How did he refute me exactly? :)

I'm a completionist so I'm likely to pick up more than most, but still there's a point where picking up items of a certain quality won't be worth my time. Maybe it's tuned so that it only happens when you're the most decked out and richest player in the world, but it will happen.

Which reply?